Air Traffic Controllers in NY

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
5,595
1
76
I was asked by a friend who is an air traffic controller to pass this story along.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=local&id=5266493

Several air traffic controllers say they were forced to direct planes despite being sickened by potentially deadly fumes, putting their lives and the lives of thousands of air travelers at risk. It's an Eyewitness News exclusive.

Eyewitness News reporter NJ Burkett has the story.
It happened exactly a week ago tonight, and the FAA does not dispute any of it. Air traffic controllers were forced to keep working while suffering the effects of potentially deadly carbon monoxide over the course of four hours. They handled as many as two hundred planes.

"It was like a fog," said controller Ray Maldonado.

Ray Maldonado was so confused he can barely remember what he did that night. John Conklin says it was a struggle.

"Sometimes it felt like I couldn't clearly put together something that I normally would have at any other time. You know what I mean?" Conklin said.

Both men were directing large commercial airliners into and out of Newark Airport from FAA's air traffic control center known as TRACON. They later learned that a test of the facility's backup generator sent exhaust fumes into the building's ventilation system, slowly filling the room with potentially-deadly carbon monoxide.

"I remember just being extremely fatigued ... very tired, very sleepy. It took a lot to stay awake that night," Maldonado said.

Soon, at least half-a-dozen controllers were physically ill. Yet they insist they were forced to remain on their positions, some for up to four more hours, continuing to direct aircraft in the skies over New York because their managers refused to replace them.

"Headaches, nausea, dizziness, disorientation, fatigue, inability to focus, not able to concentrate. We had these employees who were in no condition to do this job being directed to continue with this job," said TRACON Union President Dean Iacopelli.

Controllers say what is all the more disturbing is that Tracon's managers even refused to call the local fire department. The refusal was documented in the FAA's own internal incident report.

"They said, 'no, we're not calling the fire department,'" Conklin said.

"The employees there said, 'Well, we'll call the local fire department and have them come in to test the air. And the operations manager in charge informed them that, 'If you make the call, I will not let them in the gate and I will refuse them entry into the control room,'" Iacopelli said.

Several controllers later took themselves to the hospital where doctors turned up measurable levels of carbon monoxide in their blood.

Dr. Thomas Carracio runs the Long Island Regional Poison Control Center.

"What's troubling is it sounds like the workers were forced to stay in the area despite the fact they were having symptoms. Hundreds of people die every year with this," Carracio said. "It's something that shouldn't be taken lightly by anyone."

Now, the union president insists that the FAA refused to replace the controllers because there was no one to replace them with. In a series of reports, Eyewitness News has already documented how staffing cutbacks have been followed by an increase in controller errors.

"I can surmise that they weren't relieved because what the FAA felt was, 'Let's keep moving the airplanes and we'll worry about the safety of our employees and passengers later. Maybe nothing will happen.'" Iacopelli said.

"Something potentially dangerous could have happened and thankfully nothing did," Maldonado.

All of the controllers have recovered and are back at work. The FAA claims they flushed the ventilation system with fresh air later that night. But they admit they never took any readings to confirm the air was safe.

There are no carbon monoxide detectors anywhere in the facility. The union is now determined to fix that.

The FAA has said they're taking steps to make sure that this type of incident never happens again.

This is only a tad of what is happening inside the FAA. Among other things - the FAA has cut new controller salaries to $31,000 to start. They also make you move to Oklahoma City for training (anywhere from 12-16 weeks) in which you are paid $8/hr and you have to pay for the move, housing while you are there and food. Controllers were also given a dress code - basically business casual clothes have to be worn to work. No more jeans, t-shirts, etc. The FAA has also gone from hiring people that graduated from college with specific ATC degrees or ex military controllers to hiring anyone "off the street" with zero college education. Graduates that spend tens of thousands of dollars on their degree to get hired by the FAA are now told that they basically wasted their money and time.

 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
5,595
1
76

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
26,392
1,780
126
I blame George W. Bush. He's somehow connected to every failure in government planning these days.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
1) ATC do not have to take the job out of school(college).

2) The FAA apparently has a greater need for ATC that what the current crop of military trained is providing.

3) If the salaries are low enough, they will have a hard time finding college educated people.

4) If people have a degree and do not like the conditions, they can leave.

$31K for someone out of HS is a good deal.

There are certain training facilities. they knew the situation before signing on that they would have to be trained and where the training would be.

Do you have link details on your $8/hr training and expenses?
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
5,595
1
76
Originally posted by: Scarpozzi
I blame George W. Bush. He's somehow connected to every failure in government planning these days.

Well, he's the one that appointed the administrator - Marion Blakey and she alone has turned the FAA on its head. Currently only 8% of the FAA's employees have voted they have any confidence in her or her managment.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
ATC controllers have been complaining since the early '80s when PATCO was broken
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
5,595
1
76
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
1) ATC do nto ahve to takethe job out of school.

2) The FAA apparently has a greater need for ATC that what the current crop of military trained is providing.

3) If the salaries are low enough, they will avhe a hard time finding college eduated people.

4) If people have a degree and do nto like the conditions, they can leave.

$31K for someone out of HS is a good deal.

there are certain training facilities. they knew the sitaution before signing on that they would have to be trained and where the training would be.

Do you have link details on your $8/hr training and expenses?

i am having a hard time understand what you just typed. the FAA needs to hire 13,000 controllers within the next 10 years. at the same time they need to replace the controllers that are retiring right now. it takes anywhere from 3-5 years to become fully certified so the people retiring today are being replaced with people that wont be able to fill their slots until 3-5 years from now.

31,000 is a good deal for someone out of hs however under the old rules you needed their specific atc degree...only 13 schools in the nation offered this degree. now they are hiring anyone with 3 years work experience.

that being said for people living in high cost of living areas such as ny....think you can live off 31,000/year? dont plan on getting a raise until you check out on 25% off the positions which will take 2-3 years. you are also not eligible for OT.

I will find the $8/hr and post it later.
 

sohcrates

Diamond Member
Sep 19, 2000
7,949
0
0
a girl i work with left to go be an air traffic controller. it was one of her dream jobs out of college but she couldn't get in at first.

it was pretty high paying (so not sure about the 31K fact) and she had a college degree, but anyway she absolutely hated it. she said the hours were unreal, you're treated like garbage for years and years when you first start, there was no flexibility, and really not much advancement opportunity.

anyway, she's back now, and much happier

sounds like lots of things need to change over there
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
5,595
1
76
well, they just cut the salaries 30% this past September.

a buddy of mine was hired prior to the pay cuts and he is making about $69,000/year. if I was to be hired tomorrow me and him would be doing exactly the same thing but I would be making $31,500 and him $69,000. sounds fair, eh?

and yes, its a union job so not much room for advancement unless someone is fired or retires. the hours and shifts are horrible and yes you are treated like crap until you check out....and maybe even after that.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
I apologize for the typos.

There is poor planning of personnel; plus the fact that Congress has only authorized so much funding for the controllers.

Things were better in the 70s when there was less air traffic and more controllers.

It is easier to add planes than people; plus the equipment that is being used is outdated and the replacment system is fouled up.

To start work as an ATC trainee is not difficult. look at the kids doing it for the military.

People are retiring because they will not get paid OT.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,653
205
106
Originally posted by: alkohoLiK
I was asked by a friend who is an air traffic controller to pass this story along.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=local&id=5266493


This is only a tad of what is happening inside the FAA. Among other things - the FAA has cut new controller salaries to $31,000 to start. So what, 31K is a decent starting salary. They also make you move to Oklahoma City for training (anywhere from 12-16 weeks) in which you are paid $8/hr and you have to pay for the move, housing while you are there and food. When you go away to college or other private licensing school, you still have to pay for your own dormitory. Controllers were also given a dress code - basically business casual clothes have to be worn to work. No more jeans, t-shirts, etc. A professional environment lends itself to better learning because only serious people apply. The FAA has also gone from hiring people that graduated from college with specific ATC degrees or ex military controllers to hiring anyone "off the street" with zero college education Railroad conductors are hired in a similar manner, the only requirement is Conductor schooling/license.. Graduates that spend tens of thousands of dollars on their degree to get hired by the FAA are now told that they basically wasted their money and time. your point is?


These are typical cost savings moves... nothing illegal or unsafe here. People can choose not to work for this specific company, or this specific job title. You have way too much of a sense of entitlement...
 

slatr

Senior member
May 28, 2001
957
2
81
Originally posted by: sao123


These are typical cost savings moves... nothing illegal or unsafe here. People can choose not to work for this specific company, or this specific job title. You have way too much of a sense of entitlement...

Entitlement? Workers that are partially responsible for thousands of lives seeking entitlement?

ATC at one time was a goal for many people. It was considered a high stress, high pay job.

We'll see what affect this dumbing down has...
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
ATC controllers have been complaining since the early '80s when PATCO was broken

Pretty much. Given the current union friendly congress I bet there will be a lot more ATC scare stories coming out. My guess is that SEIU rubbing their hands in glee.
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
5,595
1
76
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
I apologize for the typos.

There is poor planning of personnel; plus the fact that Congress has only authorized so much funding for the controllers.

Things were better in the 70s when there was less air traffic and more controllers.

It is easier to add planes than people; plus the equipment that is being used is outdated and the replacment system is fouled up.

To start work as an ATC trainee is not difficult. look at the kids doing it for the military.

People are retiring because they will not get paid OT.


most of your statements are incorrect. I direct you to read this blog http://themainbang.typepad.com/
and you will be filled in on the new FAA.

the system right now is aging and outdated and needs to be replaced. the administrator has decided to cut salaries and wants to impose user fees on general aviation and business jets. being that commercial aircraft are the FAAs biggest customers - dont want to piss them off.

congress has alotted a set amount for the controllers but when you replace someone making $90,000 with someone making $30,000 - well, then they are saving a ton.

also the controllers and the FAA were unable to agree on a contract when it expired in september and when they couldnt agree the FAA FORCED its last, best offer on the controllers - it was not negotiated but forced upon them.

controllers arent retiring because they arent being paid OT...they are being FORCED to work OT. because facilities are so short staffed, management is forcing them to stay. also with the paycuts current controllers are making less therefor affecting their pensions. they longer the stay, the less they will get back for their retirement. i'm pretty sure they get 80% of their last 3 years salary. so if they were making $100,000 before the cuts they would have gotten 80k/yr as a pention....now their salaries werent cut 30% but they were put into a cap where they couldnt make more the x amount (depends on facility level, etc).

so say it was reduced from $100,000 to $90,000 (cap for their facility). Then they would only be getting $72,000/year for their retirement. I dont know about you but I dont want a $8000 paycut just because I stayed at work a year longer. I'd peace out of there fast then you can say....well, peace out.
 

ColdFusion718

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2000
3,496
9
81
If you were sitting on a plane, would you want the people directing it to be disgruntle and overworked? I don't think so. I think being paid $31k to multi-task the way they have to is way too low. Think about what it's like working at a busy call center then multiply that by 10.
 

Tobolo

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
3,697
0
0
Originally posted by: alkohoLiK
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
I apologize for the typos.

There is poor planning of personnel; plus the fact that Congress has only authorized so much funding for the controllers.

Things were better in the 70s when there was less air traffic and more controllers.

It is easier to add planes than people; plus the equipment that is being used is outdated and the replacment system is fouled up.

To start work as an ATC trainee is not difficult. look at the kids doing it for the military.

People are retiring because they will not get paid OT.


most of your statements are incorrect. I direct you to read this blog http://themainbang.typepad.com/
and you will be filled in on the new FAA.

the system right now is aging and outdated and needs to be replaced. the administrator has decided to cut salaries and wants to impose user fees on general aviation and business jets. being that commercial aircraft are the FAAs biggest customers - dont want to piss them off.

congress has alotted a set amount for the controllers but when you replace someone making $90,000 with someone making $30,000 - well, then they are saving a ton.

also the controllers and the FAA were unable to agree on a contract when it expired in september and when they couldnt agree the FAA FORCED its last, best offer on the controllers - it was not negotiated but forced upon them.

controllers arent retiring because they arent being paid OT...they are being FORCED to work OT. because facilities are so short staffed, management is forcing them to stay. also with the paycuts current controllers are making less therefor affecting their pensions. they longer the stay, the less they will get back for their retirement. i'm pretty sure they get 80% of their last 3 years salary. so if they were making $100,000 before the cuts they would have gotten 80k/yr as a pention....now their salaries werent cut 30% but they were put into a cap where they couldnt make more the x amount (depends on facility level, etc).

Please, if you are going to argue your point use a reputable source. The word Blog in of itself lowers the creditability of said site.

I will not argue on either side because I do not know enough about the situation. I want to ask though, IF the controllers left that day what would have happened to those in the air? Government work is about risk/reward. If they were groggy and non alert accidents could have happened. If they replaced them with fresh controllers then they would have become ill. If they left the control room unattended then the potential for accidents would be much higher.

I am not saying management was right in this, but I can see an argument both ways.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
"The employees there said, 'Well, we'll call the local fire department and have them come in to test the air. And the operations manager in charge informed them that, 'If you make the call, I will not let them in the gate and I will refuse them entry into the control room,'" Iacopelli said.

WTF!!! those mornos need to be fired. I dont know about the rest of you but i would have called the FD anyway. let that POS manager try to lock them out. then let them try to fire me. :|
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
5,595
1
76
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: alkohoLiK
I was asked by a friend who is an air traffic controller to pass this story along.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=local&id=5266493


This is only a tad of what is happening inside the FAA. Among other things - the FAA has cut new controller salaries to $31,000 to start. So what, 31K is a decent starting salary. They also make you move to Oklahoma City for training (anywhere from 12-16 weeks) in which you are paid $8/hr and you have to pay for the move, housing while you are there and food. When you go away to college or other private licensing school, you still have to pay for your own dormitory. Controllers were also given a dress code - basically business casual clothes have to be worn to work. No more jeans, t-shirts, etc. A professional environment lends itself to better learning because only serious people apply. The FAA has also gone from hiring people that graduated from college with specific ATC degrees or ex military controllers to hiring anyone "off the street" with zero college education Railroad conductors are hired in a similar manner, the only requirement is Conductor schooling/license.. Graduates that spend tens of thousands of dollars on their degree to get hired by the FAA are now told that they basically wasted their money and time. your point is?


These are typical cost savings moves... nothing illegal or unsafe here. People can choose not to work for this specific company, or this specific job title. You have way too much of a sense of entitlement...

and that is why tons of people are turning the job down. because you havent heard about it doesnt mean it isnt happening.

let me fill you in on a little something. i went back to school a couple years back to become a controller. people that went back to school for this degree are called CTI students. there were about 2500 of these people on a list waiting to be hired. the starting salaries were around $69,000 and the only way to get the job was to get this specific degree. i graduated and then they cut the starting salary to 31,500.

this list has dwindled down to about 300 people. i was offered a job to work in Atlanta which I declined. (once you decline - you are done being considered). I made about $70,000 last year at my current job so taking that much of a pay cut was ridiculous. so sure were arent entitled to anything - and like the others I told the FAA to take the job and shove it.

The FAA is now trying to get anyone to take the job - offering it to anyone. that kid behind the counter in McD's...sure!! The FAA has placed ads on craigslist, facebook, myspace and career builder in an attempt to get some attention.

Since most of the older controllers had enough of these "cost cutting" procedures - they are retiring. They had enough of the BS. So with this influx of massive new hires the FAA is just pushing them through....not necesarlily getting the proper education that people before them got. Just remember that the next time you get on a jet....that guy controlling it possibly isnt as qualified as he should be.

The crash in Lex, KY last year was part of this short staffing....there is without a doubt that something is going to happen because of this and all i can say is I told you so!
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
5,595
1
76
Originally posted by: Tobolo
Originally posted by: alkohoLiK
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
I apologize for the typos.

There is poor planning of personnel; plus the fact that Congress has only authorized so much funding for the controllers.

Things were better in the 70s when there was less air traffic and more controllers.

It is easier to add planes than people; plus the equipment that is being used is outdated and the replacment system is fouled up.

To start work as an ATC trainee is not difficult. look at the kids doing it for the military.

People are retiring because they will not get paid OT.


most of your statements are incorrect. I direct you to read this blog http://themainbang.typepad.com/
and you will be filled in on the new FAA.

the system right now is aging and outdated and needs to be replaced. the administrator has decided to cut salaries and wants to impose user fees on general aviation and business jets. being that commercial aircraft are the FAAs biggest customers - dont want to piss them off.

congress has alotted a set amount for the controllers but when you replace someone making $90,000 with someone making $30,000 - well, then they are saving a ton.

also the controllers and the FAA were unable to agree on a contract when it expired in september and when they couldnt agree the FAA FORCED its last, best offer on the controllers - it was not negotiated but forced upon them.

controllers arent retiring because they arent being paid OT...they are being FORCED to work OT. because facilities are so short staffed, management is forcing them to stay. also with the paycuts current controllers are making less therefor affecting their pensions. they longer the stay, the less they will get back for their retirement. i'm pretty sure they get 80% of their last 3 years salary. so if they were making $100,000 before the cuts they would have gotten 80k/yr as a pention....now their salaries werent cut 30% but they were put into a cap where they couldnt make more the x amount (depends on facility level, etc).

Please, if you are going to argue your point use a reputable source. The word Blog in of itself lowers the creditability of said site.

I will not argue on either side because I do not know enough about the situation. I want to ask though, IF the controllers left that day what would have happened to those in the air? Government work is about risk/reward. If they were groggy and non alert accidents could have happened. If they replaced them with fresh controllers then they would have become ill. If they left the control room unattended then the potential for accidents would be much higher.

I am not saying management was right in this, but I can see an argument both ways.

the blog is written by an ex-controller, ex president of the controllers union. he is retired now and has no affiliation with the faa or controllers.

if the controllers left it would have caused massive delays and numerous cancellations across the country. it happened 10 years ago at the same facility when they were building a new extension and dust got into the room. they shut down the airspace and it caused delays, cancellations, etc.
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
5,595
1
76
back on topic....please bump this thread so that it gets the attention it needs and can be first page material.

youre flying future is at risk here, thanks!
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
5,595
1
76
Best Places to work in the Federal Government

http://bestplacestowork.org/BPTW/rankin...ndex.php?t=scores_subcomponent&c=index

FAA - #204 out of 222


As for the guy requesting the info where you get paid $8/hr in OKC and you have to pay for your own housing, food and travel expenses....well, the FAA's website with that information is down at the moment

http://jobs.faa.gov/outage.htm

"The FAA Career Opportunities Page will be unavailable from 12:01 AM Central time on Friday May 4, 2007 to 7:00 AM Central time on Tuesday May 8, 2007."

However I can email or fax you my offer from the FAA which has that information if you would like.