AGP compatibility issues btwn Dell 8200 and new dual DVI video card...

[DualMonitors]

i have the 8200 dell with the NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti 4200 64MB DDR that came with the computer (two outputs: DVI max at 1600X1200, VGA max at 1920X1200). i'm using a 2 LCD set up currently with a 21.3 Samsung 213T as my main screen @1600 X1200 at the DVI output of the abovementioned vid card and an NEC 19? 1920NX as my side/secondary screen @ 1280X1024 at the VGA output of the same card. GOAL: sell the 19" NEC LCD, use the Samsung 21.3" LCD as my secondary screen, buy the new Dell 24" widescreen 2405FPW LCD and use it at 1920X1200 as my main panel.

I am interested in the brand new Dell 24" Widescreen UltraSharp 2405FPW LCD (1920X1200) and my concern is what my current vid card can support is insufficient: the dvi output of my current card can only support a max of 1600X1200, which is what i'm using it at now, but insufficient for my new Dell 24" 1920X1200 monitor. It would, of course, be possible but totally silly to buy the new 24" widescreen Dell LCD and use it through my current video card's VGA output, and use my 21.3" Samsung through the dvi output but the 21.3" LCD is my secondary screen.

AGP issues:

My dell 8200's specs, please look at the "expansion Bus" section and look carefully at the "AGP Bus Protocols":
http://docs.us.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/dim8200/specs.htm#1102278

it only says that it is 2X/4X AGP, and that they are BOTH at 1.5V. almost all the video cards with DUAL DVI outputs are 8x which according to the useful guide (sticky thread at the top of this video forum), says is ONLY 0.8V!! See this please:

http://www.schadentech.com/Video/Connection.htm#AGP

The card(s) under consideration include this one:
http://www.xfxforce.com/product_view.php?sku=PVT43AND

ANY other dual dvi card recommendations would be most appreciated. Those that require lots of power or dual power dongles are not possible. those that run very hot won't work either. ugh! all these limitations.

BUT, almost all DUAL dvi cards have the three MAIN issues: AGP 8X compatibility questions with my pc board dell 8200, power supply issues (i only have 250 watts), and thirdly, thermal cooling issues with my Dell 8200 FULL tower as it only has very low flow fans built in.

this computer simply isn't worth spending $145 for a special power supply from California that has special hole and screw sizings made for various Dell computers. yet, i would not be able to upgrade my monitors if i don't upgrade my video card (which possibly would require an upgrade to my power supply and cooling fan).

the other problem is that due to the power supply limitations of the 8200, it is not easy to find a higher end "dual dvi" output card that the very small power supply can support. According to the Dell specs, see above link please, the 8200's power supply is only 250 watts! I do understand that some power requirement ratings of video cards are overly generously rated and that a lesser power supply will work very well, not just adequately.

any suggestions/assistance/recommendations would be most appreciated. sorry for the long posting/explanation.

if anyone wishes to direct email me, that might be even more efficient and i'd be pleased to share my email address. thanks!

 

[Peter]

8x cards, by mandate of the AGP specification, MUST run in 4x mainboards. No problem there. (8x mode btw still uses 1.5V signalling, only the voltage swing is reduced to .8. The _supply_ voltage is and has ever been 3.3V on AGP.)

You should keep power draw low. Given NVidia's dreaded issues with the integrated DVI transmitter's signal quality, I'd go for a dual-DVI ATi Radeon 9600. Available from H.I.S. and maybe others.

 

[DualMonitors]

Peter,

Thanks for your reply/suggestion. The charts on this page (http://www.schadentech.com/Video/Connection.htm#AGP) indicates that there are different voltages for different AGP's though, but I think you made the point clearly that 8X is required by mandate to run and work on 4X/2X boards, right? My Dell's specs say: 4X/2X 1.5V.

I have a follow up question about your recommendation please. You mentioned NVidia's issues with DVI's signal quality, is that true across ALL of NVidia's cards or just the 5200 card? Also, as I use two monitors, I have found so far that my 4200 card's dual screen menu and features to be really well done, it's sort of like NVidia has done a really good job in doing the "dual monitor" thing. With that in mind, someone else critiqued the ATi Radeon software for dual monitors, saying that it is less versatile, less easy to use. Any comments there please?

are you talking about this HIS ATi Radeon 9600 card? http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=14-161-115&depa=1
how do you know that the 9600's current draw/power requirements are less than NVidia's current draw/power draw? is it due to the lack of need for even one single power dongle? is that your clue? how about heat? as i had mentioned, the dell 8200's heat exhaust fans are slow flow and minimal.

Looking forward to your and others responses! thanks!

PS: it's odd that HIS's pdf Manual file for the ATi 9600 does NOT indicate the possibility for TWO DVI screens: http://download.hightech.com.hk/manual/2k4Aug/English/Rade9600.pdf

though obviously, they make one since newegg sells this one which has dual DVI outputs (is it possible that the dual DVI feature was added AFTER the manual was written and HIS didn't bother with upgrading their manuals? Kindof odd.):
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=14-161-115&depa=1

Lastly, some dual dvi cards indicate that they are for AGP 8X only, others indicate they are for AGP 4X/8X. What can be the differences between those? Any possibility that the ones that say AGP 8X are NOT backwards compatible with my computer's 2X/4X AGP slot?

 

[Peter]

AGP 4x/8x use 1.5V signalling (8x mode using reduced swing), 2x/1x modes use 3.3V. Simple as that. Going 2x with 1.5V signalling is outside AGP specifications, not sure what Dell are up to here. Your 4x mode is definitely OK.

NVidia's DVI transmitter (the one integrated into the main chip) does not output good signal quality in all chip series including the 5000. I haven't seen reports on the 6000 series yet, but the 5200 is definitely amongst those that do have a surprisingly low frequency limit. With a high-res display like yours, that'll be no good.

The Dual-DVI 9600 was late to the party at HIS, yes. There is only one model. Regarding power draw/heat output (same thing btw), the info is on the web. ATi's 9600XT at 500/300 MHz core/RAM clock still is below the specified AGP 2.0 power draw limit of 25 watts, plain 9600 at 325/200 is well below even that - I'd estimate it at around 15 to 18 watts.

And again, there is no "8x-only". 8x capable cards must run on 4x mainboards, and vice versa.

 

[DualMonitors]

Peter, Many thanks for such a clear answer! As my current card is 4X (NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti 4200 64MB DDR, clock speed 350MHz, AGP 4X. MAX resolution on DVI output is 1600 X 1200 @60 Hz; VGA 1920 X 1200 @ 75 Hz), does that mean there are no "Bios" adjustments for 2X vs 4X necessary? That would be ideal as i'm not good at that. So i'll just have to pop the new card in the same AGP slot.

As NVidia has unified drivers, I was thinking that should there be an NVidia card whose DVI outputs do work well, then I don't even have to reload any drivers! I've had issues when i briefly experimented with a Matrox dual dvi card, I had to use a Driver Cleaner (!) and go through all sorts of hoops just to get rid of old stuff, causing all sorts of issues that i had to resolve, then load the new Matrox drivers (their drivers are horrendous, their cards are backwards and old tech, their tech support are poor, and most of all, their customer support is unacceptable). All that is to say that if you know of an NVidia dual DVI card that would work, that would even simplify my life more!

By the way, i've heard that the Nvidia's dual screen support is superior than ATi's dual screen support, any truth in that?

By the way, has anyone had any experience with Gainward? I looked at some of their dual dvi cards but was scared away because they almost insist on their website's support section that the user download and use their proprietary ExperTool software to download and update the BIOS!! As we all know, should something be stuck during a BIOS upgrade/change, we're in big trouble. Why would I want a card whose manufacturer virtually insists that i have to do this? The other question is, maybe what they really meant to say is that if you want to eek out the last few percent of performance from their cards, THEN you'd want to use their ExperTool software and update the BIOS. But it sure doesn't read that way so i'm shying away from it. Why get a card that requires "extra maintenance work" or extra start up work if for my requirements, I can find a simpler solution? sort of the "KISS" principle - Keep It Simple S.....

Peter, your ability to find out power draw, is power draw a DIRECT function of clock/core speeds? i don't really understand clock/core speeds, so i cannot follow, but is a higher clock speed basically higher power draw? what is the borderline clock/core speed that will require one power dongle (over and beyond getting power just from the AGP slot)? The lower end video cards have NO power dongles, is that correct? the lower end ones simply draw power from the AGP slots because they are within the AGP slot power provision limits?

Long winded again, and thanks again for your valuable advice.

PS: here's Dell Forums' advice on how to properly install the ATi drivers (!) gosh golly, how complicated:
http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums...e?board.id=dim_video&message.id=106754

 

[Peter]

Power draw: If you're using the same chip, then it's directly linked to clock speed and voltage. Higher clocked versions typically have a higher voltage as well, so the power draw rises more than linearly with clock speed. Anything below 25 watts can legally do without its own power connectors in an AGP 2.0 slot.

ATi's dual screen support isn't lacking anything you'd look for - most of the "nice" stuff people think about is obsolete when you're on DVI anyway. With the 9600, you'll be able to use Control Center software that makes some of the more rarely used features less obscure to find.

Gainward must have had an undetected fsckup in their shipping BIOS, else there'd be little point in that maneouvre. Just buy something else ...

Overall, if you want your dual DVI to be electrically best it gets, and with the better balance of power draw and operating speed, you'll have to bite the bullet and wipe the NVidia drivers to then go ATi.