Aftermarket Self Driving (Level 2/3) is Here!

[Zorba]

I was looking for videos on how to install a homelink mirror in my new Bolt and I happened upon a video showing a guy installing a Comma 3 AI system, which is apparently an aftermarket self driving (Level 2) system. You splice it in to the forward facing camera, and the gas pedal. I assume there is some connection to the steering somewhere too. It uses Open Source software, so you know its reliable!

I honestly don't know what to think about this. My first reaction is "no way, shouldn't be allowed" but then I do like the idea of having real competition in this market. Getting Super Cruise on my Bolt would've cost ~5K more than I paid and then you have to pay for an expensive subscription too. But I seriously doubt any after market solution will actually have proper testing.

comma.ai — make driving chill

comma.ai

 

[geohot]

Hey, I'm the founder of comma.

"I seriously doubt any after market solution will actually have proper testing." I'm curious why you think this. What are your thoughts on the testing of Linux vs Windows?

Here is the repo for the code running on that device: https://github.com/commaai/openpilot

It has 43,900 GitHub stars, and is developed in more modern software style than anything we have seen from the car companies. 10,000 people are using it and reporting fancy telemetry back to the servers, which is used to improve the continually updating software. See our blog for release notes: https://blog.comma.ai/

 

[Zorba]

Hey, I'm the founder of comma.

"I seriously doubt any after market solution will actually have proper testing." I'm curious why you think this. What are your thoughts on the testing of Linux vs Windows?

Here is the repo for the code running on that device: https://github.com/commaai/openpilot

It has 43,900 GitHub stars, and is developed in more modern software style than anything we have seen from the car companies. 10,000 people are using it and reporting fancy telemetry back to the servers, which is used to improve the continually updating software. See our blog for release notes: https://blog.comma.ai/

Welcome to our little part the internet.

I'm guessing that you don't have the resources to test this software to the equivalent of DAL A or DAL B, nor thorough system integration testing on 250 different vehicles. Your post seems to confirm that your testing is public beta testing, not vigorous simulation/closed course testing.

It is a cool concept, but as someone that's been around safety critical software development I have my doubts. I have similar doubts about Tesla's testing, which have been borne out in numerous deaths.

 

[geohot]

Do you think car manufacturers are testing to "DAL A or DAL B"? That's for aircraft, cars use ASIL and a set of standards like ISO26262.

I doubt I'm going to convince you our testing is good, but I have no idea why you have any faith in the car manufacturers. The absolute clown stuff I have seen in some of their software will make you never want to get in a car again.

And how sure are you that aircraft are better? Did you look into what the 737 MAX bug was?

But yea, if you think Tesla (the most valuable car maker in the world) isn't good enough, then this is not for you. There's been many deaths in Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, they just don't make the news as often.

 

[Zorba]

Do you think car manufacturers are testing to "DAL A or DAL B"? That's for aircraft, cars use ASIL and a set of standards like ISO26262.

I doubt I'm going to convince you our testing is good, but I have no idea why you have any faith in the car manufacturers. The absolute clown stuff I have seen in some of their software will make you never want to get in a car again.

And how sure are you that aircraft are better? Did you look into what the 737 MAX bug was?

But yea, if you think Tesla (the most valuable car maker in the world) isn't good enough, then this is not for you. There's been many deaths in Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, they just don't make the news as often.

Thanks for taking the time to explain the type of testing you do as opposed to ranting. /S

I know a lot about the Max accidents, that software was not tested properly because it was misclassified among may other things.

Do you actually have any testing of your product you can describe or is it just "trust me, I use GitHub!" ? What ASIL level are you working towards, how are you verifying against those requirements? How do you test new software builds to ensure no errors have been introduced?

Do you understand there are bigger consequences for failure on your software than a Windows laptop?

BTW: I don't have a lot of faith in car companies' software, I also don't have a car that drives for me. However, the car companies' products do go through some degree of independent testing and get through the (thin) layers of regulation to make a car road legal. The lack of rigour in testing will cause major issues for full adoption of self driving, people won't accept software that may or may not drive them into a concrete wall.

 

[MrSquished]

what could go wrong?

 

[geohot]

what could go wrong?

As long as you are paying attention and ready to take over at any time...not too much. The brake pedal immediately cancels all actions, and the wheel is torque limited (by the car manufacturer, not us).

We have a blog post about our safety model here: https://blog.comma.ai/understanding-the-openpilot-safety-model/

 

[yottabit]

Do you think car manufacturers are testing to "DAL A or DAL B"? That's for aircraft, cars use ASIL and a set of standards like ISO26262.

I doubt I'm going to convince you our testing is good, but I have no idea why you have any faith in the car manufacturers. The absolute clown stuff I have seen in some of their software will make you never want to get in a car again.

And how sure are you that aircraft are better? Did you look into what the 737 MAX bug was?

But yea, if you think Tesla (the most valuable car maker in the world) isn't good enough, then this is not for you. There's been many deaths in Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, they just don't make the news as often.

I feel like it’s not really a great look to chase down your Google alerts, sign up on forum you’re not a member of just to basically stamp out what otherwise could have been an interesting discussion after the first post.

But since you are here I do think it seems like a cool product. I had a newer Camry rental the other day and was playing around with the various settings for the lane centering thinking “this could be better”

I didn’t realize newer makes could be effectively controlled by the CANBUS but it makes sense now that nearly everything is “by wire”

And the fact it’s open source is pretty neat. As long as the capabilities aren’t overstated and it’s not over-positioned as “FSD” then I don’t personally have any safety / ethical fears. I like how your website clearly labels the level of functionality expected for each vehicle

Do you know the device effects auto insurance rates or coverage in any positive or negative way? That would be one remaining concern for using an aftermarket system. I could see an insurance company trying to weasel out and completely deny a claim if the vehicle was aftermarket modified with such a system, even if it wasn’t at fault. I suppose the datalogging and video recording might help that scenario but I’d be interested to read a blog article on positive & negative interactions with auto insurance

Are there any plans to consider other types of sensors in future kits on the road to FSD, or are you committed to the “camera only” path?

 

[bbhaag]

There is a pretty big thread about this project over on the Mach-E forum I hang out on. A few members have installed it on their Mach-Es and Lightings with success. They claim it works just as good or better than Fords BlueCruise 1.0 and 1.2 and it works on more roads than BlueCruise.

With Ford announcing that BC will be subscription based costing close to $800/year I could see this as a viable alternative for those who hate the subscription model that a lot of automotive manufacturers are moving toward.

Here's a link to the thread if anyone is interested in reading some first hand accounts.

Installing Comma.ai / OpenPilot (BlueCruise alternative)

As of 0.9.2, Comma.ai began to support Ford vehicles. Their latest release, 0.9.4, is quite impressive. Went ahead and put in an order for the Comma C3X and the needed Ford Q4 Harness . Since our IPMA is located in the trunk area, a long 3.1 USB-C extension is required. I picked out this one...

www.macheforum.com