After you stop laughing, could someone tell me something about the Bios?

[JAWS1]

I know it is probably something, that anyone plugging in a computer should know, but I don't and believe me I have read and read. Where is the Bios stored? Is it on the HD or the CMOS or both, or some other place??

When you do a fresh install on a new HD you first have to set the Bios right? So when you hit the switch do you have an opportunity to hit DEL to enter Bios setup because it is coming from CMOS or somewhere else or do you have to make a floppy of the updated Bios and put that in first, or do you put a disk in that comes with the system, then update the Bios after you turn it on? Or do you just get a fifth of bourbon and kill that off while you stare at all the pretty lights n wires?!

Sorry to appear so confussed, but what can I say, I AM. Everything I have read simply says just turn it on and go into the BIOS. And maybe it is that simple but I keep thinking this thing called the BIOS doesn't just come down from heaven. Does it???

If someone could help, so I don't trash all my pretty lights n wires, I would sincerely appreciate it!!

JAWS😕

 

[DOSfan]

Well JAWS1, first I would like to say that I did not laugh. 😉

Now then: The BIOS is almost always stored on CMOS. However, I do know that Compaq puts it on the hard drive. (Or, at least they used to.....)

Now if you are asking about doing a fresh install of an operating system, you should be fine. If it is a brand new hard drive, you will need to do a little more work.

I could go into all of the possibilities.... But I would rather not confuse you anymore than you already are.

If you are installing an OS from a CD, and your computer is set to be able to boot from a CD-ROM, you should be okay with just placing the CD in the drive and booting the computer. (Most OS installs I have seen take care of formating and all, so it should not be too much of a hasle for you.)

 

[amdskip]

I'd say 99% of the time the bios is stored on a chip on the motherboard. I've never seen one that was stored on a hard drive because that doesn't make sense really. Hit del while booting and just boot from the cdrom and you should be good to go.

 

[JAWS1]

Thanks DOSfan and amdskip, you have given me the feeling I can proceed and have a few less problems than expected!

DOSfan, I have an ABIT IS7 that I have been using with a WD 40GB HD loaded w/winME. I'm planning on taking that HD completly out and puting in a new Maxtor 120GB HD and installing win xp pro on it. Then I want to slave the WD so I can transfer some programs to the new master off of it and then use it as storage and/or backup to the system.

So, if you would DOSfan, or anyone really, go ahead and confuse me some more. What do I need to do to insure this goes as smooth as posible and more important, is done right! I plan on updating the BIOS and I thought I maybe should disconnect the dual ram by taking one 256 stick out (I've read win xp doesn't install as well w/dual ram)?. Thanks for any more help you can give.

JAWS

 

[crobusa]

The bios itself is stored on a chip that's 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch. It has a battery connected to keep the time current when off and that the settings remain if you swap components.

Most modern bios(es?) are flashable, meaning a program can overwrite them with an image, usually from a floppy, cdrom, or a HD. Some have to manually swapped out with a new chip. All bios chips are removable with a sharp object, hopefully a chip extractor.

Award Bios pic
Another size bios

Don't worry about the bios, unless you get can only see a portion of the 120gb.
(Even if the bios is too old to understand large disks, most modern OSes ignore what the bios says.) How are you going to partition?

 

[Zepper]

On most current mobos, the BIOS code is in a Flash ROM chip so it can be updated as needed. It can be a small square (PLCC - plastic leadless chip carrier) chip or a fairly large rectangular chip (DIP - dual inline pin). With a magnifying glass you will probably be able to find one of these words on a label atop the chip: Award, Phoenix or AMI - along with the BIOS date and/or version no.
. The settings that you change and save are in what's called the CMOS - because it's a small area (usually 512 bytes or less) of CMOS (complimentary metal oxide silicon) SRAM (static RAM) that used to be located in the keyboad controller chip when it was separate, but now it is built into one of the chipset chips, probably the south bridge.
. The reason that your settings are saved in CMOS SRAM rather than in the Flash ROM of the BIOS itself is bacause Flash generally has to be erased and completely rewritten to be updated. Considering how often BIOS flashes seem to go wrong, it's probably a good idea that they keep the settings in a separate area. Whereas the CMOS SRAM can be updated a single bit, a nibble or a byte at a time just like in your main RAM.
. The pages of settings choices are presented to you from the BIOS and only your choices for the settings are saved in the CMOS. On the subsequent reboot, the configuration of your choice will be loaded. The battery on the mobo is used to keep this bit of CMOS SRAM from losing its data.
. Compaq and IBM used to have a small boot block of ROM BIOS with the rest in a hidden area of the hard drive. I think (hope) that both have since given up that practice.
. I hope this clarifies.
.bh.
Where's the :sun: ?

 

[JAWS1]

Thanks crobusa, I'm pretty sure that my BIOS is flashable, which I plan on doing before I do anything else.

I guess I am going to install FAT32, mostly because the HD I will use as slave is FAT32 and the computer I plan on networking to has two drives, both FAT32. I may change to NTFS someday but want to keep it simple as I can right now. So, in answer to your question If I am understanding things right (about FAT32 limitations) I am going to partition to what I'm limited to in FAT32 which is 32GB's. So I guess I will have Three 32GB partitions and one for the OS at 24GB's. What do you think?

 

[JAWS1]

Thanks Zepper, that really explains how all this works and what is really scarey is, I think I understood most of what you were saying and I don't feel near as bad, not having known this before. However, I must say I found your answer somewhat depressing because it demonstrates just how very little I know and how very much I have yet to learn! So be careful with us newbs Zepper or you will depress us all right out of this building business (hobby). Just kidding, thanks for your answer.

JAWS:sun:

 

[DOSfan]

Well then JAWS1, you are well on your way to learning.

I can not speak for the others, but I learned all I know from doing. So I am aware of where you are. And for the record, I still have a lot to learn about the hardware side of things. Except for recently, the last time I payed attention to hardware, 32 pin SIMMs were the only memory available, and 100 MHz was the fastest CPU. 😛

But with what you are describing, you are all set.

Go through the obvious set up, I am assuming you are aware of the basics here.... Fogive me if you are not. Just in case: shut down, unplug the case, disconnect all of the cables (not absolutely necessary, but makes things easier in the long run.), open the case, disconnect the current HD, install the new HD, connect that with the IDEE cable you had originally on the old HD, connect the old hard drive.

(This is, of course vastly simplified. If you have a new mobo, with a current BIOS, you could just tell the BIOS to boot from the second drive.... But I am from the old school of computer building. Everything in its proper place and all. 😉)

When you have everything installed, (closing the case up is optional. If you feel more comfortable putting the panels back on - go right ahead. I prefer to leave it open until I am sure everything works right. Again, from the days when IRQ's were jumper set. 😛) put your XP cd in your drive, and boot up. You should have no reason to enter BIOS, unless you have an older version. An older version is fine btw, just the new ones autodetect HD's to save you the trouble of inputing the cylinders, heads, etc.

If all has gone well, the XP installer will lead you through partitioning and formating the brand new hard drive, and everything is golden from there.

And the best part is, if you are having any problems, just make your old HD your boot drive, and you can run for a while while you figure out what is wrong.

Good luck to you! 😀

Oh, BTW: As far as partitioning.... I was not aware that FAT32 is limited to 32 GB's.... I just might not know. But my 80 GB HD's are all one partition. I am just saying if you do not want to make small partitions, you should not be required to. But try to get a bit more knowledgeable information on that first.

 

[Zepper]

Some older BIOSes have a 32GB drive size limitation, but that's not a limit of FAT32.
.bh.

 

[lenjack]

JAWS1...there is absoluely no reason for any of us to laugh at your question.

 

[SemperFi]

JAWS1 I just wanted to mention that you should use the original program disks to install programs. Most but not all programs install registry entries and files into folders like windows\system32. Moving programs from one drive to another will not do this and thus won't work.

If you meant to say files instead of programs disreguard the above. 😉

 

[ProviaFan]

Originally posted by: Zepper
Some older BIOSes have a 32GB drive size limitation, but that's not a limit of FAT32.
.bh.

That is also a limitation of Windows 2000 (and probably XP) also. Since FAT32 can become more inefficient in storage space with larger partitions, it's a good motivation to use NTFS (which will not cause any troubles or compatibility problems unless you're dual booting with Linux or Windows 9x/ME on the same system; in that case, use FAT32, because those operating systems can not read NTFS - or in the case of Linux, it can read from but not write to an NTFS partition). Note that an older non-NTFS aware system (such as Windows 9x) can access files that are stored on an NTFS partition on a newer system (such as WinXP) across a network, because the way the files are accessed over a network (SMB or CIFS) does not care how the files are physically laid out on the disk.

 

[JAWS1]

jliechty, thanks for the info. Can you or someone tell me this... is it possible to set up a Raid1 array if the master is a Maxtor 120GB HD w/win xp and using NTFS and the slave is a WD 40GB HD using FAT32? And if it isn't possible which part makes it so.

Also, I have heard that Fat32 can't have access to NTFS on the same computer or if it can, it can't do anything w/those files, is this true?
What you said about networking, would be true then for winME on a two system home wireless network with an NTFS computer?

Thanks,
JAWS

 

[ProviaFan]

Originally posted by: JAWS1
jliechty, thanks for the info. Can you or someone tell me this... is it possible to set up a Raid1 array if the master is a Maxtor 120GB HD w/win xp and using NTFS and the slave is a WD 40GB HD using FAT32? And if it isn't possible which part makes it so.

RAID 1 makes a duplicate copy of one disk on another, in real time. You tell me if you can fit 120GB of raw, uncompressed data in 40GB of space, and the answer then should be obvious. 😉

In all of the RAID levels that I know of (0, 1, 3, 5, or any x+0 variation of the aforementioned), the size of the array is limited by the smallest disk. Therefore, you would get a 40GB redundant array if you tried to put both of those disks together in RAID 1... and that's probably not what you want.

Also, I have heard that Fat32 can't have access to NTFS on the same computer or if it can, it can't do anything w/those files, is this true?

You may be saying Filesystems and thinking of Operating Systems. One filesystem doesn't "access" another; the Operating System, however, can (possibly) copy files from one type of filesystem to another, depending on whether or not it can read and write to said filesystem.

With Windows 2000 or XP, you can have an NTFS partition and a FAT32 partition on one drive (or several on multiple drives), and you will be able to copy files back and forth freely between the partitions. If you also happen to have Windows ME or 98 installed on one of those FAT32 partitions, then when you boot into that OS, you will not be able to read or write to the NTFS partitions, because Windows ME does not understand NTFS (Windows 2000 and XP understand both).

What you said about networking, would be true then for winME on a two system home wireless network with an NTFS computer?

Yes. 😎

Note that if you intend to share files between Windows 9x/ME and Windows 2000/XP, you'll need to read and follow these instructions to get it to work right (whether you're using NTFS or FAT32 on the 2k/XP machine).

Thanks,
JAWS

No problem. 🙂

 

[ProviaFan]

Since I fear that I may have not explained the way in which Filesystems and Operating Systems interact well enough, I will try to type a little diagram to help you understand better.

Here is how the software and hardware work with a regular disk (I assume you're familiar with drivers; in this case we're dealing with drivers for hardware and software things):

Operating system (software) > Filesystem (driver) > Disk controller (driver that runs hardware) > Disk

Operating system (software) > Filesystem (driver) > RAID controller (driver that runs hardware) > Disks

What I want to show you with this is that the Operating system doesn't know how many disks are in a RAID array, because the RAID controller and driver make it all appear to be one disk (albeit a very fast or reliable one). Therefore, since the filesystem driver sits on top of the disk or RAID controller driver, the RAID controller isn't aware of filesystems; all it does is pass around raw data as the filesystem driver instructs it to do. In short and simple terms, this means that you can't have a RAID 1 array with an NTFS-partitioned disk and a FAT32-partitioned disk together; as far as the Operating system and filesystem driver are concerned, it's just one big disk. (for more info on different RAID levels, see here).

 

[DOSfan]

JAWS1, does this suggest that your install went well? 🙂

Also, from my limited experience, XP does not network well. I am about to check jliechty's instruction link, but as of yet I have never seen XP network with any other OS (even XP) sucessfeully. One friend who tried to set up a network was told by Microsoft's tech support that the Home version cannot do it. He would need the Pro version. He eventualy acquired 2 copies of XP Pro, and still cannot get the computers to see each other. After I read the instruction link, I will report back later.

Oh, I am not trying to scare you. I wish you all the best. I wanted to relay this to you so you are aware of the trouble others had so you would know it wasn't just you if you came across it.

Good luck!

edit: Okay, I just read through the instruction link. SInce I have never run XP, I will have to check with my friends who have but, if I read correctly, you need to set up an account on the NT/2K/XP machine that matches the other users? I do not think my friends tried that. That could be where they went wrong. I will report back when I have verified.

 

[ProviaFan]

Originally posted by: DOSfan
edit: Okay, I just read through the instruction link. SInce I have never run XP, I will have to check with my friends who have but, if I read correctly, you need to set up an account on the NT/2K/XP machine that matches the other users? I do not think my friends tried that. That could be where they went wrong. I will report back when I have verified.

Yes, I'm fairly certain that's where they went wrong, as long as the other basic networking setup things were done properly (same subnet, non-conflicting IP addresses, same workgroup, etc.). I have to maintain the exact same list of usernames and corresponding passwords on my XP and 2000 systems, but they share printers and files perfectly, without any hassle (other than that of having to remember to change passwords on both systems).

Edit: And no, for a home network like what you or I might run, you don't need XP Pro (though I do use it for other features). You need XP Pro if you have a computer with more than one processor, or if you need to join a Domain (instead of a Workgroup, which is what the rest of us use). Domains are controlled by servers called Domain Controllers, so unless you set up a Windows 2000 or 2003 Server on your network to do this task and didn't say anything about it, then you probably don't need XP Pro.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: amdskip
I'd say 99% of the time the bios is stored on a chip on the motherboard. I've never seen one that was stored on a hard drive because that doesn't make sense really. Hit del while booting and just boot from the cdrom and you should be good to go.

I just worked on an old Compaq laptop. The BIOS setup menu is stored on a hidden partition on the hard drive. At least that's how it's supposed to be. I couldn't seem to "reinstall" it though. The programs I found on Compaq's site only let me install diagnostic utilities on the hidden partition. The BIOS is accessible only by a bootable floppy disk right now. The setup information itself must be stored on the motherboard though. The interface takes up most of the space I'd imagine - it is a GUI, and it looks like Windows 3.1, with touchpad support too. Lots of options though, which I'd like to see on new laptops.
But as has been said here - almost all computers store the BIOS setup data and the interface on a chip on the motherboard, which has a lithium battery near it to retain the data. If the chip loses power, it loses the custom settings and reverts to defaults. The defaults are stored in EEPROM (EEEPROM or EPROM maybe? Don't remember the number of E's).

 

[Zepper]

You can set up RAID 1 on two different size drives, but the drive space will be only that of the smallest drive in the set. Everything on the two 40GB spaces will be identical. When you hook them up to the raid controller, you will have to re partition them anyway. So , no you can't have two different file systems on the drives.
.bh.

 

[JAWS1]

jliechty, you will never know how great I think Forums are, or how much I think of people like you and Dosfan, amdskip, crobusa, zepper, lenjack, smperfi, jeff7 and many others that make this thing work. It is a GREAT way for you who know, make us that don't have a clue, feel alot better about whatever we are trying to do to make our bells and whistles work right or at least a little better!

I haven't made the big move [Install etc.] yet, but after I get back from being out of town I will and I will be sure to let you know how it went. I would like to say, it hasn't been done yet because of being a husband and a dad alot this past week, but I half suspect the latent reason is fear.

So, the way I see it is I should forget about Raid1 untill I have drives of eaqual size, I didn't realize the entire drive was mirrored. For some reason I thought it was more of a backup of those things important to the sys. operation. Also, even tho I would have part of the 120GB on the 40GB it wouldn't be what it should and I understand they both must use the same file sys.. I will just use the 40 as storage and backup. I also believe even tho it does't appear to make a difference for networking (if I have things set right) and I probably SHOULD run NTFS, I will probably install FAT32, it will just be one less thing to worry about. Maybe after I know a little more about why it would be good for me I'll switch to NTFS.

Well now, I know just enough to be dangerous and I'm going to give it a try as soon as I have a decent block of time. I hope you all wish me luck and again thanks a bunch for all the time everyone took to help me the best that you can. I'll return the favor in part, by using all the information the best that I can.

One more word about the BIOS. It is a nasty little critter when you think about it. You can't do a thing without it and it can screw you up in a New York milisecond. Many people are not sure where it lives but continue to support it. It hides in several secret places and is even known to have ties to two guys named Chip and Battery and I have heard it has been known to lie, be deceitful and mess peoples lives up. You know...It could be a woman! But I think it's really a Communist plot and its acronyms stand for B eing I n the O perating S ystem C ommunist M en O perate your S ystem.

Just a feabal attempt to add some humor, very little humor. Thanks again all and I'll let you know if I can. I guess if you don't hear from me in a few days you'll know I didn't learn very well and I'll be in divorce court cause I blew the whole thing up! Just kidding, I feel confident because my Communist BIOS is really on my side and if it isn't I'll RAID it!

JAWS

 

[ProviaFan]

Originally posted by: JAWS1
Just a feabal attempt to add some humor, very little humor. Thanks again all and I'll let you know if I can. I guess if you don't hear from me in a few days you'll know I didn't learn very well and I'll be in divorce court cause I blew the whole thing up! Just kidding, I feel confident because my Communist BIOS is really on my side and if it isn't I'll RAID it!

JAWS

I know you're just being funny, but there really is such a thing as a redundant BIOS. This is good because the BIOS code in any modern motherboard resides on a small flash memory chip (not to be confused with the battery-backed CMOS, which is where the BIOS settings are stored). The problem is that in some instances (fortunately they are rather rare), the BIOS must be updated, and if the power fails while the BIOS flash memory is being upgraded, your system will not be able to boot at all. Gigabyte makes motherboards that have two BIOS flash memories, so if one is left unusable by an interrupted flashing session, the system will (semi-automatically) switch over to the other BIOS chip, which will let you boot your system (and thus fix the first chip that was left unusable). 🙂

 

[DOSfan]

JAWS1, I am glad we have helped you. 🙂

But I feel obligated to say that if you do not feel comfortable doing the install yet, don't do it. If you are suffering from the little self doubts that always pop up when you are doing something new, those will never go away until you try it a couple of times. But if you are truly uncomfortable, then you are not ready yet.

Side note, on the previous discusion about networks. My roomate claims he had set up an account for my 98SE machine on his XP box, but the network never seemed to work. (Yes we used the "setup disk" on the 98SE machine. And my roomate is an absentminded fool, so I would not trust his word at it.) But I am fairly certain that my friend with the two XP systems did not do that. I have yet to verify that though. Again, I will report back with what I learn.

Good luck JAWS1!! We are all wishing you the best! 😀