After months on the fence Abbas is ready to return to the UN.

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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In breaking news Abbas has given Netanyuhu a one month deadline or he will return to the UN.

With The UN card a somewhat of a new Palestinian card never played. Point granted, as long as the US is willing to Veto the Palestinian Statehood in the security council, Israeli is safe, but when the bulk of the the UN General assembly seemingly supports a Palestinian Statehood bid, the USA risks alienating all Arabs and most of the world in casting its Veto.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...to-our-peace-plan-or-we-return-to-un-1.423290

As for Abbas, he has has bowed to Arab and US pressure to keep engaged in Israeli negotiations that have led to zero Israeli concessions while Israel only accelerates it settlements in disputed territory programs. Any Arab advanced negotiation initiatives died after Jordan gave it one more chance and still gained zero Israeli concessions.

Meanwhile overall US foreign policy is taking an overall beating in the mid-east, two largely failed quagmires in Iraq and Afghanistan, problems with Iran, Turkey, Syria, and even Egypt, while the EU increasingly demands an end to Israeli settlement. The question is somewhat should Abbas wait until US elections or take it to the UN now? We now have our answer, Abbas is opting to do it before the US elections, as the Palestinian Statehood card will be always in future be a UN issue.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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More doom and gloom for Israel eh? Israel isn't going to be forced to do anything and a US veto won't do anything other than get "whelp, I guess we start over again". No one really cares enough to make this the huge issue you want it to be. Iran is far more of a concern to the EU, and Israel who isn't a threat will be left alone.

Sorry, foiled again.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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More doom and gloom for Israel eh? Israel isn't going to be forced to do anything and a US veto won't do anything other than get "whelp, I guess we start over again". No one really cares enough to make this the huge issue you want it to be. Iran is far more of a concern to the EU, and Israel who isn't a threat will be left alone.

Sorry, foiled again.
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As so says Haybasusa Rider, actual end result may be different. But it looks like the die is now cast, as both Israel, the US, the Palestinians, and the international community have all crossed the Rubicon river.

As the Haybasusa Rider delusion may be, just because Abbas may not succeed immediately does not mean that the US fat will always be in the fire from now on.

As on that point only time will tell, as US support of Israel becomes increasingly expensive.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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I do get a kick out of the arguments. Oh the horror of Israel building houses!

Versus the failed quagmire in Iraq where the U.S. did the horribly unthinkable act of removing a dictator that previously waged an 8-year chemical war, attempted genocide against the Kurds, estimated kill total of 1-2 million humans...
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Woohoo. Abbas is going to demand something or other as yet undefined and will go to the UN demanding that something be done, which is as of yet, unknown. It's likely this will end up being as powerfull and all-encompassing as the recent PA and Hamas accord which resulted in...nothing; absolutely nothing. LL was tooting their respective horns too not long ago and it all came to...nothing.

I predict this is another puff of dust LL thread that will result in...nothing. It's not a tough prediction because every LL thread meets the very same thing...nothing, except for copious amounts of LL hot air.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
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As so says Haybasusa Rider, actual end result may be different. But it looks like the die is now cast, as both Israel, the US, the Palestinians, and the international community have all crossed the Rubicon river.

As the Haybasusa Rider delusion may be, just because Abbas may not succeed immediately does not mean that the US fat will always be in the fire from now on.

As on that point only time will tell, as US support of Israel becomes increasingly expensive.

*sigh*

Didn't I already talk at you about this little habit of yours? Starting a shitload of sentences with the word 'as' just makes you look like a pompous asshole, regardless of the point you are making. :colbert:
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Because we all know the Palestianians have said Yes to every attempt to create a nation for them since the 1940s, and those evil Israelis have said No to every attempt to create a nation for the Palestinians.

Wait, I have the reversed, don't I?
 

EagleKeeper

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What negotiations. The Palestinians demanded everything up front as a concession to talk?

What is so hard for them to formally acknowledge the right of Israel to exist and have secure borders?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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What negotiations. The Palestinians demanded everything up front as a concession to talk?

What is so hard for them to formally acknowledge the right of Israel to exist and have secure borders?
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Abbas has already granted that, it was the basis of 1992 talks. As now Netanyuhu demands what he won't get, Palestinian recognition of Israel AS A JEWISH STATE.

As for bullshit, the US birthers don't have anything on Netanyuhu. Netanyuhu may think he has the world fooled, but fewer and fewer nations believe a word Netanyuhu says.

The world may not be ready to act YET, but Israel is no longer looked at as an asset for mid-east stability.
 

EagleKeeper

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Abbas has already granted that, it was the basis of 1992 talks. As now Netanyuhu demands what he won't get, Palestinian recognition of Israel AS A JEWISH STATE.

As for bullshit, the US birthers don't have anything on Netanyuhu. Netanyuhu may think he has the world fooled, but fewer and fewer nations believe a word Netanyuhu says.

The world may not be ready to act YET, but Israel is no longer looked at as an asset for mid-east stability.

How can Abbas grant something that Hamas refuses? Hamas took over leadership of the PLO/PA. Have there been new elections.
Abbas has no decision in determining what type of state Israel chooses to be. That is up to the people of Israel. If Israel wants to declare itself as a pumpkin state with purple dots; it has the right to.

Along with the principles, the two groups signed Letters of Mutual Recognition - the Israeli government recognized the PLO as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, while the PLO recognized the right of the state of Israel to exist and renounced terrorism as well as other violence, and its desire for the destruction of the Israeli state.
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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How can Abbas grant something that Hamas refuses?
Abbas has no decision in determining what type of state Israel chooses to be.
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We can also ask how Netanyuhu be the sole spokesman for an Israel that is politically divided. As Abbas certainly speaks for almost all of Fatah and a large part of Hamas. While all of Israel denies that Palestinians have human rights.

Exactly what talks are supposed to lead to, mutual recognition of Palestinian and Israeli borders, and each others right's to exist with borders to be agreed to. IF you EK think total agreement by either side will ever happen, you EK are crazy. In the entire history of the world, there have been thousands of peace agreements that worked, but none were unanimous. As the 1948 Palestinian right of return has not and never will go away.

As for your last point, its laughable, the UN in 1958 only approved Israel as a secular State. And even now, no nation on earth recognizes Israel as a JEWISH only State or even recognizes Israel's right of conquest of the West Bank, East Jerusalem,and Gaza.

IMHO, if Abbas can go to the UN and at least force an Israeli settlement freeze, it would be a significant advance. And then the next step would be to decide why Israel should be rewarded for illegally settling some 500,000 Israeli settlers on land it did not own. Then things get really interesting for a Palestinian State that finally controls its own water rights. Because if Israeli settlers choose to stay under Palestinian control, they cannot possibly expect to receive their accustomed lion's share of the water and continue to expect the Palestinians still receive damn near nothing.

But sooner or later the issue will be settled, be it a one state or two State solution for Israel, since Israel basically stole over 50% of owned Palestinian land in 1948, and now controls 100% of disputed territories Israel has no right to, ANY FAIR SETTLEMENT BY ISRAEL MUST INVOLVE ISRAEL MAKING THE BULK OF THE CONCESSIONS.

Any other argument is absurd, its like bank robbers saying we illegally stole the money and won't give any back unless we get to keep 90% of the money. When the bank Israel robbed had no more than 25% Jewish depositors.
 

EagleKeeper

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Oct 30, 2000
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Secure from terrorism.

Any one that attacks Israel or conspired against her is not welcome. Anyone that wanted what Israel created is not welcome.

When the Palestinians realize this, they get their state.

Presently
They refuse to comply with Oslo.
They think they should be rewarded for bad behaivor/decisions.

They feel they can ignore advice of the quartet as to what has to be done to be considered for statehood.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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As EK repeats the greatest lie on earth in saying, "Secure from terrorism.

Any one that attacks Israel or conspired against her is not welcome. Anyone that wanted what Israel created is not welcome.

When the Palestinians realize this, they get their state."

Seriously EK, if you think the Israel will, ever grant the Palestinian any State, unless the world forces Israel to give up its ill gotten gains, if the Pals roll over and play dead, you are are the most delusional liar on the planet.

You may be a serial purveyor of fine Israeli propaganda EK, but no one rational believes a single word of it. If there was a single bit of truth to what you say, Israel would have made concessions to the peaceful Palestinians of Fatah at Annapolis and simple failed to do so. Nothing new here, its been the Israeli track record since 1948.

And your other delusion EK, is that Israel always will continue to get away with it, as Israeli extremism now makes Israel into the greatest threat to mid-east stability.

Its Abbas who will have all the credibility when he takes his case to the UN. As Israeli credibility has been shrinking for 2 decades at an ever accelerating rate and US credibility in the mid-east is falling nearly as fast.

As the best Israel can come up with is to charge Abbas with diplomatic terrorism for pointing out the truth.

As I also forgot to point out, Israel is the greater violator of the terms of Oslo.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
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In breaking news Abbas has given Netanyuhu a one month deadline or he will return to the UN.

Dear Netanyuhu,
Gonna do my very best and it ain't no lie
If you put me to the test, if you let me try
Take a chance on me
 

EagleKeeper

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Oct 30, 2000
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Have the Palestinians stopped the terrorists specified in the Olson agreement. If yes, Israel is gge weaker partner politically. If no, the Palestinians had two things to implement. They will have failed both. Hamas who has been the elected government by the Palestinians; no replacement elections yet, will not acknowledge Israel. And the The terrorism aspect.

Two simple things to pull the rug out from Israel. But they can not do it.

Nor can they implement what the quartet asked for to get in to the UN as a state. So again Abbas is going hat in hand and coming back a fool.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Dear Netanyuhu,
Gonna do my very best and it ain't no lie
If you put me to the test, if you let me try
Take a chance on me
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Wrong song jagec, Abbas is not begging Nertanyuhu, he is asking the UN general assembly to dope slap Netanyuhu. And since Security Council members get to vote in the general assembly too, they can send the message to Obama that their support of Israeli bullshit is less than what Obama wants.

Its a wake up call to both the USA and to politicians of all parties in Israel. Far from me ever saying it, Overall the current Israel government may be bat shit insane, but at least a strong minority inside of Israel are willing to make the concessions needed for Israel to become a productive and accepted member of the mid-east.

The Netanyuhu coalition government can fall, and given the Israeli parliamentary style of government, it just takes one no confidence vote to trigger new Israeli elections. As it is Netanyuhy's Licud party is a minority party that must seek coalition partners to stay in power.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Three nations really don't care. In no particular order-

US
Russia
China

These three aren't intimidated, period, and for good or i'll that's reality. Israel? The latter two will throw Israel under the bus. The US has many supporters of Israel and won't take to the UN being forced into a binding agreement when Abbas himself cannot do so, being unable to guarantee the behavior of Hamas. Most of the rest of the West are focused on the antics of Iran. This isn't even a blip on their radar.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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All well and fine to say Haybasusa Rider as a prediction, as I also agree the Palestinian will not be able to free themselves without the help of external forces. In maybe the same way our US slaves got freed when Northern forces had to fight a civil war to force the issue.

But still, I predict it will be fellow Arab States that force the issue in the case of Israel, as 300 million Arabs pressure Israel and use oil as a weapon to get the USA on board. And at the same time, Arab financed terrorism will finally start to hurt Israel as the rocket ranges keep increasing and the payloads start to include chemical and biological weapons as stateless terrorists increasingly drive the events.

Given the fact the Israeli moral position is already in the sewer, rational moderates on all sides may finally get their chance to defuse the issues.

Time will tell but its hard to be long term bullish on the future of an extremist Israel.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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But still, I predict...
You are a glutton for punishment.

If any Arab states or the Palestinians start using chemical and/or biological weapons the entire world would turn on them immediately and the Palestinians will lose absolutely everything. Are you REALLY that insanely fanatical in your insipid hatred of Israel that you believe those will be some sort of solution?

Wow! I mean, just wow. You are completely batshit insane.
 

EagleKeeper

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In other news - it is OK to have pre-conditions for talks; does it impede progress?
Link

Abbas has said for several weeks he was in the process of penning a letter to Netanyahu, which is expected to lay out Palestinian conditions for resuming negotiations, including a halt to Israeli settlement construction and clear parameters for discussions of future borders.

Netanyahu's office has said that he will respond with his own letter to Abbas, which is likely to call for a resumption of direct negotiations without preconditions

The Palestinians have accused Israel of failing to present proposals on borders and security called for by the Quartet, which groups the United Nations, United States, European Union and Russia.

Has anyone seen any proposals by the Palestinians on borders and security?

Last I hear was the Palestinians wanted back to per-67 and Israel said no; we will talk about what will happen with each existing settlement.

Nothing about security from the PA; Israel's security concerns have been well laid out, documented and shown to be justifiable.


So if one wants pre-conditions and the other refuses; who is correct? And if those pre-conditions are known to be unacceptable - what is the point for talks
 
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cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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The precondition for the Gaza Strip to return to talks is the destruction of Israel. I am flabbergasted that Israel will not accept such a precondition!
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Abbas has already granted that, it was the basis of 1992 talks. As now Netanyuhu demands what he won't get, Palestinian recognition of Israel AS A JEWISH STATE.

Almost the entire world accepts this. The Palestinians not accepting it does not change the reality of it one bit.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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As TLC asks, "So if one wants pre-conditions and the other refuses; who is correct? And if those pre-conditions are known to be unacceptable - what is the point for talks asks, "

And there is always an answer for that in the form of binding third party arbitration. Given the huge gaps and disproportionate existing distribution, why should we assume anything remotely fair would be agreed to by Israel. And why should the Palestinians accept less than a fair settlement.

TLC, sooner or later the Israeli Palestinian issues will be settled, but how to get to a fair settlement is a large part of the problem.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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As TLC asks, "So if one wants pre-conditions and the other refuses; who is correct? And if those pre-conditions are known to be unacceptable - what is the point for talks asks, "

And there is always an answer for that in the form of binding third party arbitration. Given the huge gaps and disproportionate existing distribution, why should we assume anything remotely fair would be agreed to by Israel. And why should the Palestinians accept less than a fair settlement.

TLC, sooner or later the Israeli Palestinian issues will be settled, but how to get to a fair settlement is a large part of the problem.

So who would both Palestinians and Israelis consider impartial and fair?