After America...

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
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After America...

A great article by Dexter Filkins, author of Forever War (not the sci-fi one ;))

It's so amazingly accurate, though I feel like he tries too hard to balance both sides to make the article seem fair. I see the realities of the situation every day. We're making a small group of people (Americans and Afghans) very rich, while the average Afghan lives in abject poverty & squalor. There are a few smart, dedicated, amazing leaders in the Afghan National Security Forces, but for everyone one of those good guys, there are 15 that are just there to collect a paycheck. They'll abandon the cause or switch sides whenever it's convenient.

I feel for those who will be left to complete the last few rotations in Afghanistan, in 2014 and beyond. Once we draw down to a minimal force (less than 15,000) we'll be ripe targets. It'll only take a few spectacular attacks or kidnappings to totally finish off our national (and international) will to help Afghanistan.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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IMHO, Nebor you totally blew your whole post with your in the last clause of your last sentence.

Namely the statement, "to totally finish off our national (and international) will to help Afghanistan."

As sadly and all due respect to your total nativity Nebor, there is zero real evidence that the USA really wanted to help the people of Afghanistan, as all the USA wanted to do was advance our foreign policy, and because our foreign policy has zero to do with helping the ordinary Afghan citizen, it perfectly explains why our foreign policy flopped in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

That set of people may have been ruled by tyrants and brutes, but when we tear down those semi-predictable rulers and replace it with total anarchy instead, they are worse off than were before. And when we in the USA are too cheap to step up to the plate and provide a real government that works in the people's interests ( rather than only US foreign policy interests), after two or three years, the people wise up and say Yankee go home. Afghanistan in now in year 11 of total anarchy, and the only people in Afghanistan who love the USA are war lords, thugs, thieves, and drug dealers.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
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As sadly and all due respect to your total nativity Nebor, there is zero real evidence that the USA really wanted to help the people of Afghanistan, as all the USA wanted to do was advance our foreign policy, and because our foreign policy has zero to do with helping the ordinary Afghan citizen, it perfectly explains why our foreign policy flopped in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

That set of people may have been ruled by tyrants and brutes, but when we tear down those semi-predictable rulers and replace it with total anarchy instead, they are worse off than were before. And when we in the USA are too cheap to step up to the plate and provide a real government that works in the people's interests ( rather than only US foreign policy interests), after two or three years, the people wise up and say Yankee go home. Afghanistan in now in year 11 of total anarchy, and the only people in Afghanistan who love the USA are war lords, thugs, thieves, and drug dealers.

hmmm

Just because your view of the world is fucked up, doesn't make it true.

These countries will take time to redevelop. America wasn't built in a day. Not even 11 years did we have a stable country.


Let us put Mubarak & Gaddafi back in control, and fully support Assad while we're at it.
 
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chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Our foreign policy flops in those places LL because Politicians do not have the political will to commit large amounts of US forces not until it's politically expedient to call it a "win", but to crush the enemy and ensure our way of thinking is indoctrinated throughout the population.

The reason they don't have the political will LL is because the American people need things done in Starbucks time periods with Wal-mart cost. Add-on whining groups of people who have to analyze every skirmish failure/bad shit and apply it wholey to all of the US troops operating in these shitholes, and will keep screaming their shit until everyone starts sympathetically smelling it, and you have a Public that undermines what its own Military is trying to accomplish.

You want to know why we haven't had the success in Iraq or Afghanistan we should have? Look in the mirror.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
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Or, Lemon Law, do you have some grand theory that Israel is controlling the U.S. foreign policy to create anarchy in the region?
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
But for everyone one of those good guys, there are 15 that are just there to collect a paycheck. They'll abandon the cause or switch sides whenever it's convenient.

.

Omg...Nebor that's.......class warfare!

These guys are just being good little capitalists.

Oh, they have a different god thing...oops!
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
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Nebor, you've stayed in that country for too long. They need to bring you back home. This is not your problem. Don't care too much or you will hate yourself for leaving. Just do your job and move on. You cannot impose your morals on them.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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Or, Lemon Law, do you have some grand theory that Israel is controlling the U.S. foreign policy to create anarchy in the region?
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Cubby, IMHO, you are way off base, Afghanistan and Israel have nothing to do with each other here. If I did not drag Israel into this debate about Afghanistan, why should you assume my criticism of US foreign policy in Afghanistan has anything to do with Israel?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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In some retrospect, any implied criticism of Nebor or other dedicated non top command US soldiers and reservists may be misplaced here.

As the vast bulk of the US soldiers and reservists genuinely go that extra mile to help the Afghan people even if the cultural divide is vast.

As in my mind, the problem is and remains the Nato generals and the civilians US politicians who set unrealistic goals without providing the means of achieving them.

Our American military did a stellar job of winning the war in Afghanistan, and now it up to our civilian leaders to win the peace.

Nor should we say America does not how to win the peace, we may have had far wiser leaders back then, but we can put post WW2 Germany and Japan into the American win column. As we can site Harry Truman and George C. Marshall as the architects of those wins. Sadly their good deeds did not go unpunished, and we got a 40 year unproductive cold war instead.

But I ask this forum, how deep did America have to scrape the absolute bottum of the barrel, to come up with sec's of defense like William MacNamera, Donald Rumsfeld, and now Leon Pinhead. Or we can do anything Presidents like LBJ, Nixon, GWB, and now Obama who wasted American resources to gratify only their own ego's for all the good it does them.

Whose fault is it, our stupid politicians, or the American people who voted for idiots who told us what we wanted to hear?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
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It's gonna be payback time for anyone that supported us or tried to evolve past stone age. Sad really. Like 3 million Vietnamese slaughtered after we left, (the ones we did not give visas to) This highlights another reason why wars are pretty dumb. As I said from get go - kill teams - bribes - etc - on the down low is how we should have got these terrorist networks not a full scale invasion of Afghanistan. Now we bought it and I think it's our responsibility not to abandon ppl who would be otherwise in peril should we leave. It's only right.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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Nebor, you've stayed in that country for too long. They need to bring you back home. This is not your problem. Don't care too much or you will hate yourself for leaving. Just do your job and move on. You cannot impose your morals on them.
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As again I think Dari plays the wrong song. Even if the cultural gap between Nebor and the Average Afghan is vast, the fact is and remains, the average Afghan does not like the the brutality and religious righteous of Taliban any more than we do.

As the American people prefer to see the Afghan people as ignorant cartoons of backward pagans when they are in fact human beings very much like us. And with the same goals of as everyone else, in better lives for themselves and their children.

As its really us in America who are the somewhat ignorant pagans who have zero understanding of what the Afghan people have been through. Afghanistan has not had a stable or popular government since 1937, and during most of that time, has been ruled by a succession of brutal war lords. Then the Russians came in 1980, and in their brutality and lust for rule, close to 20% of the Afghan people died. Then Uncle Sammy armed the Afghan terrorists, being careful to first rename them freedom fighters, and soon Uncle Sammy succeeded in his only mission in tweaking the nose of the Russian bear. And giving the USSR their own version of the Vietnam.

Once the Russians went home, Uncle Sammy abandoned the Afghan people like a no longer useful tool, as Afghanistan descended into a ten year civil war as war lord fought war lord for turf and the drug trade. And in that sense, as rotten and horrible as the Taliban were, they were still better than the anarchy and thuggery of war lords and drug traffickers.

But still, it was no skin off the US butt, we still dealt with Taliban government even if we didn't recognize the legitimacy of their idiotic government.

But that is when the shit hit the fan, as Ossama Bin Laden, one of our former freedom fighters, borrowed the soil of Afghanistan and used it to launch 911. As Uncle Sammy deeply stung came into Afghanistan guns blazing in an act of revenge. As Donald Rumsfeld devised military tactics worthy of Hannibal and Rommel, but forgot one little minor detail. Its absolutely brilliant to have a anvil and pincher movement, as the pincher claw squeezes the enemy against an anvil, but ole Dumsfeld forgot to have an anvil waiting at Tora Bora. As the whole lot escaped into Pakistan and parts beyond.

Meanwhile for the Afghan people it was back to the days of anarchy and civil war, drug lords, thugs, war lords, and every bit as bad as even the worse time since 1937. And in the subsequent 11 years its gotten even worse. At least Al-Quida had the option to flee or stay, but not so the Taliban whose home it was. As the Taliban was soon back with the cry of throw the western devils out. As The USA engaged in mission creep. As the goal became to kill every member of the Taliban, no matter how many innocent Afghan civilians they had to kill in the process. And then we wonder why the Taliban treats us with the same mercy and humanity we give in return.

And then when we ask for help of the Afghan civilian, we don't bother to protect them. As for the puppet Afghan government we set up in the name of democracy, they are by in large the very drug dealers, war lords, thugs, that have always victimized the Afghan people.

But don't take my word for it, listen to Leon Pinhead, if we just kill a few more Taliban, there will finally be light at the end of the Tunnel.

And come 2014 or when ever we will still be saying that, then we will pull a new Nixon, declare peace with honor, sail home saying yippee we won, leaving behind another monument to American policy stupidity. And maybe then, like Vietnam, The Afghan people will finally get their chance to heal, and start to slowly modernize. Actally Afghanistan can have a bright future, lots of newly discovered mineral wealth, and its a prime route for a pipeline for natural gas between Iran and India

Sorry to be a wet blanket here, but if you are happy with our American foreign policy results, there is something seriously wrong with your brain.

Sure we can do far better, but if we keep voting for idiot politicians who tell us we can do it cheap cheap and cheaper. Its time to US wise up. In a military occupation, you either go big or we are better off staying at home.
 
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Arglebargle

Senior member
Dec 2, 2006
892
1
81
The US had a window of opportunity in Afganistan of about a year, after the completion of the invasion. Lots of promises were made, but left unfulfilled, as we moved on to the next big shiny. Neglect and foolishness lead to a deteriorating situation there, which helped to cause troubles in Pakistan as well.

The USA just cannot handle the amount of time, money, and soldiers it would take to stabilize Afganistan. Especially given the many wasted years.

Very interesting article. I feel sad for the decent Afgan people.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
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Somehow it's taken me this long to realize that Lemon Law doesn't even read the posted articles, he just spouts off his standard talking points.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
The US had a window of opportunity in Afganistan of about a year, after the completion of the invasion. Lots of promises were made, but left unfulfilled, as we moved on to the next big shiny. Neglect and foolishness lead to a deteriorating situation there, which helped to cause troubles in Pakistan as well.

The USA just cannot handle the amount of time, money, and soldiers it would take to stabilize Afganistan. Especially given the many wasted years.

Very interesting article. I feel sad for the decent Afgan people.

I think that's a fable we like telling ourselves. I doubt America or any other nation could possibly have saved and rebuilt Afghanistan. Like the article said, the success of the Marshall Plan and even what we call success in Iraq was dependent on the educated class taking up the gauntlet of civilizing their society and being minimally competent at government, security and finance.

66% of Iraqis are urbanized, and 74% of Iraqis are literate. Compare that to an urbanization figure of 23% and literacy rate of 28% for Afghanistan. I just don't see how you pull something off like this when what you have to work with is that unmotivated and uneducated.
 

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,411
10
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You guys think too much. It's pretty simple. Our Military sector pushes our Politician for war so they can overcharge us for weapons and contractor services.

Without this sector American economy would collapse and 100s thousands would lose their jobs.

America NEEDS war to sustain itself.

No one gives a fug about other countries or their future. All we care about is WAR and letting our Corps exploit those countries for their resources.

I call it, transfer of American tax money from public > private sector.

Some say it's a form of Fascism, and one can say it really is. Whenever you allow outside entity (in this case Corporations) dictate your government it's a form of Fascism.

Just hope and PREY they don't ever take it to the extreme, then we are really screwed. Our government has already set itself up to legally strip it's citizens of it's freedom, in the name of terrorism/fear.

Was it Benjamin Franklin that said "those that sacrifice their freedom for little bit of security deserve neither"?

Not that American public has any say/or control.

If you care and want to change anything there is really only one thing you can do (it really needs to happen on a HUGE scale):

VOTE WITH YOUR MONEY!!!

Your political vote is worthless.

Where you spend you money, corps/businesses you support is what will drive what the government will do.
 

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,411
10
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Just to add to my reply above.

NO COUNTRY (including America) can ever take another country and rebuild it from the ground up (especially people/processes etc).

a) we don't even have OUR shit together
b) we can't even remotely AFFORD it

The reason why it's being done is simple. Transfer of money from public to Corps/Politicians.

There is only one way to resolve it.

Step 1- Open up books/bank account for every politician for past 50 or so years. Open books/audit all major Corps. See their market moves/decisions.....and what laws were passed at the time.

Step 2, put them away for good for treason. That should prevent any future corruption.

What remains at the end is not pretty.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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Somehow it's taken me this long to realize that Lemon Law doesn't even read the posted articles, he just spouts off his standard talking points.
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Nebor,Your posted article was basically only about one man's perspective of the Afghan civil war that raged until the Taliban finally vanquished most local militias.

And does almost nothing to explain why the post 911 Nato occupation failed.

And I find your cheap shots at what I posted did anything to refute any of my talking points. As I still maintain, with better tactics and a radically different strategy, Nato could have done far better than we did in Afghanistan.

As the USA's standard talking point is that the Afghan people are too dumb and primitive and Pakistan prevents us from Winning. As I think argblegardble is correct that Nato had a window of opportunity of even less than a year to stabilize Afghanistan. But to stabilize all of Afghanistan was going to tale 620,000 troops, and Dumsfeld didn't even allocate 1/7 of that number.

Maybe if Nato had concentrated on just saving 1/7 of Afghanistan we might at least have shown 1/7 of Afghanistan that Western technology beat the hell out of primitive technology the Taliban wants to keep Afghanistan mired in. And then we could build out from there.

But you started this thread Nebor, so maybe its time for Nebor to give us his version of how to stabilize Afghanistan and start winning?
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
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I tend to agree with the other posters in the thread, that Afghanistan is and always was unwinnable. Not only is the population backwards and primitive, but they have no collective desire to better themselves. Historically they've en mass switched to the winning side in every conflict they've found themselves in. And a few good apples doesn't save the bushel, no matter how much I'd like them to. Instead the dedicated, smart, ambitious, honest, hard working Afghans are taken advantage of and marginalized to ensure they don't disrupt the wholesale corruption taking place in every district in Afghanistan.

Couple that with the fact that our military isn't good at this sort of thing. In fact, I'd say we're downright terrible at it. Even today, a decade into this war, I see American battalion commanders acting unilaterally to conduct operations, because they're here to kill people, not train Afghans. COIN never really caught on with the generation of military men that grew up wishing they'd gotten to be part of the epic technology fueled domination that was Desert Storm.

We're not going to start winning, LL. If you actually read the article, and possess a reasonable amount of critical reading skills, you'd have ascertained that no one thinks things are going to be ok. No one thinks we're going to start winning. From the military's perspective, we're being told to slap this house of cards together so we can get out before the wind starts blowing. It's all a sham. I predict that the southern and eastern provinces will fall under Taliban control within 6 months of our departure. Within 2 years Kabul will be the battleground between the North and the south once more. And nothing will have changed, because that's how Afghanistan is: immutable.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
I tend to agree with the other posters in the thread, that Afghanistan is and always was unwinnable. Not only is the population backwards and primitive, but they have no collective desire to better themselves. Historically they've en mass switched to the winning side in every conflict they've found themselves in. And a few good apples doesn't save the bushel, no matter how much I'd like them to. Instead the dedicated, smart, ambitious, honest, hard working Afghans are taken advantage of and marginalized to ensure they don't disrupt the wholesale corruption taking place in every district in Afghanistan.

Couple that with the fact that our military isn't good at this sort of thing. In fact, I'd say we're downright terrible at it. Even today, a decade into this war, I see American battalion commanders acting unilaterally to conduct operations, because they're here to kill people, not train Afghans. COIN never really caught on with the generation of military men that grew up wishing they'd gotten to be part of the epic technology fueled domination that was Desert Storm.
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Bullshit and excuses, feed no bull dogs Nebor. If that is the best you can come up with, you are no part of any solutions and in fact are the problem.

But in some charity to you, you at least identify part of the common sickness in saying, "COIN never really caught on with the generation of military men that grew up wishing they'd gotten to be part of the epic technology fueled domination that was Desert Storm."

As I ask, what did Desert storm accomplish? As it insured another 13 years of Saddam in power, while mainly the innocent Iraqi children and people suffered for it. While Saddam spent his time building palaces with gold plated plumbing. Eat your heart out Hugh Heffner.

As I leave you Nebor asking, what good does it do to anyone to win the war and then lose the peace? As its something a akin to GWB's so called war on terrorism, And here we are, some 11 years into this new war against a 6000 year old tactic, and we have more terrorists now than before we started.

As we in the USA , who should know better, terrorism is not the real problem, its merely a symptom of social injustice.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Earth to LL, do you really think, even after 9/11, there was the Public, and thus Political, will to put in 600k troops? Plus the support and logistics for that? For the 20 or 30 years it would take to subdue and indoctrinate their masses?

America doesn't have that will. I already told you, if it can't be done in Starbucks coffee prep time, with Walmart cost, Americans can't tolerate it. For F sakes, we took over a whole oil rich nation in record time, in an actual vital region of the world (not that Afghanistan isn't with its natural resources), and Americans still couldn't stomach losing paltry amounts of troops.

You think they were going to buy into a workable (and the only workable plan for Afghanistan is/was what I just posted above) Afghanistan plan?

In light of all this, basically everything you've posted about Afghanistan is either wrong, and/or, F'd. The forces there are either doing the best with what they've got, or, are dumbF's...and they'd have been dumbF's anyways if we had the above plan so it doesn't matter.

Get real dude...
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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In all due respect to chucky2 who makes somewhat of a valid but in MHO stupid point by saying, "Earth to LL, do you really think, even after 9/11, there was the Public, and thus Political, will to put in 600k troops? Plus the support and logistics for that? For the 20 or 30 years it would take to subdue and indoctrinate their masses?

America doesn't have that will. I already told you, if it can't be done in Starbucks coffee prep time, with Walmart cost, Americans can't tolerate it. For F sakes, we took over a whole oil rich nation in record time, in an actual vital region of the world (not that Afghanistan isn't with its natural resources), and Americans still couldn't stomach losing paltry amounts of troops."

As IMHO, chucky2 makes two stupid assumptions.

1. If America is not willing to to do what it takes to win, in Afghanistan, lets admit it from the get go, why lie to the American people and pretend we can do the impossible on the cheap? If your excise Chucky2 is, that the lies of GWB are acceptable, there is something really really wrong with YOU? I mean seriously, Chucky2, why play a game we cannot win?

2. Chucky2, you seem to be under the delusion the US occupation of Iraq is something we can put into any win column? When Iraqi stability is far far far wider than it is deep. As we can also ask what did we win after 2 plus trillion dollars, and all those wasted US lives. Lots of water under the dam since Steven Hadley told us the Iraq war would cost us no more than 50 billion tops? As my fear is any event, could cause Iraq to go into a civil war that will spill far past Iraqi borders.

In short chucky2, IMHO, you seem to exhibit all the foreign policy vision of a amoeba. And to use your own words against you, Chucky2 learn to think and get real dude.

Or are you just happy chucky2 to see America lose?
 
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Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
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Welcome aboard.

And to think, after all these years here I'm just now adding the second person to my ignore list. He really is a fucking moron, an illiterate, backwards, Jihadi loving fuckwad. He pollutes actual discussions with totally unrelated bullshit that he pulls from Muslim activist blogs.