Afghanistan on fire, troops hater more than ever before, innocent workers killed.

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Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
I personally value our freedoms as Americans, including the freedom to burn some idiotic book. The answer isn't to shrivel away and give in to the nutcases who want to rage when someone does something they don't like. The pastor had a right to do what he did, and he should have that right. If that puts our troops in more danger, then pull our folks the hell out. Nation building is stupid and will never work in a place where the vast majority are devoted to a religion that is fundamentally at odds with freedom.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
No, there isn't a Moral equivalency. However, defending this "Pastor" for his attention whoring is just plain stupid. Everyone knew what the reaction would be, so what was his point?

The point is that he has an absolute right to do what he did, stupid or not, and we should protect that right at all costs because it's what separates free countries from other countries.

The reality is that the nutcases will always find something to rage about, we don't have to 'walk on eggshells' and behave in such a way as to not possibly offend them. If they don't like what someone in some other country 10,000 miles away does and want to kill over it, screw them. Don't curtail our rights to appease the stupid.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,225
5,801
126
The point is that he has an absolute right to do what he did, stupid or not, and we should protect that right at all costs because it's what separates free countries from other countries.

The reality is that the nutcases will always find something to rage about, we don't have to 'walk on eggshells' and behave in such a way as to not possibly offend them. If they don't like what someone in some other country 10,000 miles away does and want to kill over it, screw them. Don't curtail our rights to appease the stupid.

Yes, he has that Right, but we know what the response would be. We also know he did it just for the attention and little else. What he did wasn't Noble and not worth defending.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,952
8,005
136
Why are we losing in Afghanistan?

I the answer gets totally especially clear after viewing American poster idiots on this threads. Because instead of asking what we can do to make Afghanistan better we instead ask what the fuck is wrong with Afghanistan.

Lemon Law, nation builder extraordinaire? Didn't think to place you in the Neocon camp. As for me, the problem with Afghanistan is that we're still there to be butchered. Only reason our people have to die is for some bunk nation building crusade.

When we start to make the lives of the Afghan people we can start to win, but we are too cheap and stupid to even start to grow a brain.

Well George W. I did not miss you.

How many billions of dollars, and human cost should we pour into Afgan this decade? I guess if we started to grow a bran we'd send the Pastor to Gitmo for being a terrorist against your beloved Afgan peace process.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
Yes, he has that Right, but we know what the response would be. We also know he did it just for the attention and little else. What he did wasn't Noble and not worth defending.

I don't see his actions as "noble" in any way, I agree with you on that. I see his actions as stupid and pointless, and knowing that I could put other people's lives needlessly in danger I would not have taken the same actions. However, it is very scary to think that many people advocate curtailing our rights to appease idiots on the other side of the world who get offended at the drop of a hat.

Afghanistan is a no-win situation. We don't have the stomach as a country to do what would be needed to "win", and there is no way we're going to "win" anything long term with trying to nation-build.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Why are we losing in Afghanistan?

The answer gets totally especially clear after viewing American poster idiots on this threads. Because instead of asking what we can do to make Afghanistan better we instead ask what the fuck is wrong with Afghanistan.

And when the answer is simple, because when we have a nation of 31 million people, we are too damn stupid to connect any of the dots. Because what is wrong with Afghanistan was confined to basically three small groups. (1) The totally corrupt and ineffectual government of Afghanistan. (2) Another small group at the top best described as war lords that make huge profits trafficking drugs. (3) And foreign intervention, first by the Russians and now by the USA that caused a total Afghan civil war in 1990 as thuggery ruled the day.

Which caused in the end, the (4) rise of the Taliban, as the Afghan people's home grown cure for corrupt thugs, an equally brutal set of Taliban thugs. As finally the Afghan people at least got rid of its corrupt war lords drug trafficking. Sadly, that led to (#5) As a tiny addition of Al-Quida idiots that attacked the USA on 911.

So the USA and Nato came in with guns blazing, sending all of Afghanistan back to total anarchy and civil war.

And after a long winded explanation we can finally identify where we went wrong.

Because there was never anything rotten about most of the 30 out of 31 million strong
people, it was always confined to just a rotten 3%.

So what has Nato done actually, as we do nothing to help the ordinary majority Afghan worth saving? And we instead make their lives of 97% perpetually miserable while empowering the 3% corrupt Afghan government and the war Lords instead.

And now all you wonder why we failed. We simply forgot to do anything to make the lot of the 97% Afghan people better. And then we wonder why they don't like our Western freedoms when those very freedoms become code words for only Nato stupidity we have become the delivers of.

Face the facts, most of the 30 million Afghan people want Nato reforms to make their lives better, but when its made their lives far worse, we can't connect a single dot that its why we fail.

When we can start to make the lives of the Afghan people better we can start to win, but we are too cheap and stupid to even start to grow a brain. In a marketplace of free ideas, we can't start to sell out ideas when they are insane.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,225
5,801
126
I don't see his actions as "noble" in any way, I agree with you on that. I see his actions as stupid and pointless, and knowing that I could put other people's lives needlessly in danger I would not have taken the same actions. However, it is very scary to think that many people advocate curtailing our rights to appease idiots on the other side of the world who get offended at the drop of a hat.

Afghanistan is a no-win situation. We don't have the stomach as a country to do what would be needed to "win", and there is no way we're going to "win" anything long term with trying to nation-build.

Ya, I agree.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Face the facts, most of the 30 million Afghan people want Nato reforms to make their lives better, but when its made their lives far worse, we can't connect a single dot that its why we fail.

Maybe they do, but we have NO CLUE how to do that. We don't understand what they want out of life. Did you read the article I posted earlier in the thread? We're not the same kind of people as they are. They don't care about freedom, or technology or progress.

We have failed. It's over. Game over. We never could have won in the first place, and the attempt at nation building was our biggest mistake. Time to pack up our toys and go home.

That said, I would love another tour in Afghanistan, for entirely selfish purposes. So I hope I get another crack at it before we withdraw.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
As Nebor the twit assert that, "We don't understand what they want out of life."

Earth to Nebor, earth to Nebor, all people all over the earth want a better life for themselves and their children. When we deliver them a worse life instead, they notice far faster than we do.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,225
5,801
126
As Nebor the twit assert that, "We don't understand what they want out of life."

Earth to Nebor, earth to Nebor, all people all over the earth want a better life for themselves and their children. When we deliver them a worse life instead, they notice far faster than we do.

I think he does have somewhat of a point though. I wouldn't call them Luddites, but they appear resistant to the Modern life, either being comfortable with their simpler Social Structure or equating the Modern world with decadence(easy to do and not without merit) and/or Immoral. They seem to be a stubborn people, which seems to work for them, at least in preserving their traditional ways.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,512
24
76
No, there isn't a Moral equivalency. However, defending this "Pastor" for his attention whoring is just plain stupid. Everyone knew what the reaction would be, so what was his point?

What statements in this thread would you consider as defending this pastor?
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
I think he does have somewhat of a point though. I wouldn't call them Luddites, but they appear resistant to the Modern life, either being comfortable with their simpler Social Structure or equating the Modern world with decadence(easy to do and not without merit) and/or Immoral. They seem to be a stubborn people, which seems to work for them, at least in preserving their traditional ways.

They extremely resistant to modern life. They're very happy with the way things are. They've had a centuries worth of chances to adopt new technologies and advance as a culture, but you can see European and Russian technology that was simply tossed aside and allowed to rot littering the country. When we give them new, nice things they don't want to use them, either out of a simple resistance to technology, or because they fully believe that using them will degrade them, and they know they're not capable of repairing them.

I've toured newly constructed power plants that the US paid $100M for. I asked about maintenance, and they said that was done by foreign contractors. I asked what happens when the US stops paying for those contractors. They said, "Well, you've seen the old russian power plants, right?"

You've never dealt with the culture, or been charged with changing it Lemon Law. You sit in your comfy chair and play armchair nation-builder but you don't have a clue. I know, personally, hundreds of people that have spent years in Afghanistan. At this point, I don't know a single one that has a hope for Afghanistan beyond perhaps Kabul living on as a commerce center city-state that serves the drug & farming industries.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
They seem to be a stubborn people, which seems to work for them, at least in preserving their traditional ways.

It's interesting that people insist on viewing others as wishing to be "Little Americans". "Wanting to be better off" can mean that they are left their own ways. That of course frustrates those who have the "white man's burden" philosophy.

Well not everyone wants that. If they wish to be violent, so be it. If they want tribal rule, go for it. GTFO and let them pick their fate, not at the cost of our lives.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Jaskalas said something I feel compelled to answer, namely, "Lemon Law, nation builder extraordinaire? Didn't think to place you in the Neocon camp. As for me, the problem with Afghanistan is that we're still there to be butchered. Only reason our people have to die is for some bunk nation building crusade."

All I can say Jaskalas is that I was never in favor of GWB&co intervening in Afghanistan and I was even more opposed to neocons idiots intervening in Iraq.

But once its after the fact, all patriotic Americans can and should do is hope for the best. Because there is no damn computer back button undo it hit, and that is all I can say to you, Jaskalas. Because we all got dragged into this stupidity without our knowledge or consent.

As an American I did not vote for GWB&co, and have always thought he was an idiot in every way. But once GWB&co committed all of us in this nation to nation building building in Afghanistan, we, the American people are still stuck with the decision.

Now riddle me this Jaskalas, what should a patriotic American American like Lemon Law do? Especially after I realize what I already knew all along, that GWB was not only an idiots but had the wrong approach to have a hope of winning. Its always been my American position, that once we are committed we should try to salvage a win. Should I sit there passively and cheer for my team, for all the good its done us so far, or should I do what I am doing by saying we need a better approach?

Point granted Jaskalas, we could all get buyers remorse and get the hell out, but its about 10 years too late to do that. As it is American foreign policy is on international probation, as we can't long say we can just do things stupid, without a co commitment obligation to fix what we broke.

But the point Jaskalas is and remains, when I outline a way to win and not lose, rather than have an open mind, you call me a neocon.
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon law View Post
call me a neocon.
Ok.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Habasusa Rider the idiot thinks proving me a neocon will solve a single thing, I have only pity for Haybasusa Rider reasoning.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
... < horseshit > ...

These savages in Muslim countries will burn bibles, churches, people, but god forbid anyone in the rest of the world harm the Koran or image of Mohamed, because they'll go on mindless rampages killing in the name of their religion. That's an issue, but that's not my immediate concern here.

Afghanistan is not worth one more American life and we should get the hell out of that worthless craphole. That's an issue, but that's not my immediate concern here.

I think it's important to make a point that in the real world -not the world we'd like to exist- we should have the brains and emotional maturity to temper what we have the right to do with what we should do. I know you have this need to feel all big and righteous about our rights and need to pound your chest over &#8220;curtailing our rights to appease nutjobs who are offended,&#8221; but words come cheap for a small person like you. You're not the one affected.

This deliberately staged act came after they were warned by fellow religious leaders and government officials -including Bush and Petraeus- of the very real possibility that their publicity stunt would provoke just this type of reaction from radical Muslims. The president and commander don't get to operate in a pretty world of theory and false bravado... they deal with the realities on the ground, where people die because of the actions of others.

When some nutcase pulls a bullshit stunt and spouts off that we are in a holy war with Islam they give a tremendous boost to Al Qaeda's propaganda machine. They are acting in direct opposition to the strategy behind our "war on terror." Bush spent almost his entire term in the White House trying to convince the Muslim world that America's war on radical terrorists is not a war on Islam in general. Obama has continued that. Our success hinges on convincing enough Muslim nations and people that we are not fighting a holy war. Whoever encourages or applauds idiots like Jones and Boykin is aiding our enemies. That is the simple fact you cannot ignore: YOU are hurting our troops. Those are my brothers over there.

In WWII, people made a lot of sacrifices and didn't do some things, even though they had the right, because they knew it could hurt the war effort. And I wonder where you were, knucklehead, when that Iman wanted to plant a mosque next to the WTC site... he had the RIGHT to do that, even though restraint and discretion should prevail. You have the RIGHT to go spouting off to some Hell's Angel dude about how crappy his ride is, or drive through Compton blaring White Power music, but I doubt you'll do that even though your obviously so committed to free speech, you fucking hypocrite, maybe it's not so much about free speech but rather you just have a penis size issue with Islam. Cut your nose to spite your face...
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,952
8,005
136
All I can say Jaskalas is that I was never in favor of GWB&co intervening in Afghanistan and I was even more opposed to neocons idiots intervening in Iraq.

But once its after the fact, all patriotic Americans can and should do is hope for the best. Because there is no damn computer back button undo it hit, and that is all I can say to you, Jaskalas. Because we all got dragged into this stupidity without our knowledge or consent.

As an American I did not vote for GWB&co, and have always thought he was an idiot in every way. But once GWB&co committed all of us in this nation to nation building building in Afghanistan, we, the American people are still stuck with the decision.

Now riddle me this Jaskalas, what should a patriotic American American like Lemon Law do? Especially after I realize what I already knew all along, that GWB was not only an idiots but had the wrong approach to have a hope of winning. Its always been my American position, that once we are committed we should try to salvage a win. Should I sit there passively and cheer for my team, for all the good its done us so far, or should I do what I am doing by saying we need a better approach?

Point granted Jaskalas, we could all get buyers remorse and get the hell out, but its about 10 years too late to do that. As it is American foreign policy is on international probation, as we can't long say we can just do things stupid, without a co commitment obligation to fix what we broke.

But the point Jaskalas is and remains, when I outline a way to win and not lose, rather than have an open mind, you call me a neocon.

Our mission was retaliation. Change of government and a whole lot of killing against the people who struck us. We've done that. Now all we're doing is sitting there letting our people die. What are they dying for?

Let's face it, if your goal is nation building in a tribal wasteland fraught with Islamic terrorism - then you will be there the rest of your life - at a minimum. Probably until our nation finally agrees the cost is not worth the return. More than this, you will keep us involved and meddling in an Islamic country. The same sort of meddling blamed for September 11th.

What did we break? We changed the government. The new one is in place, you think it needs us? Afgans can make peace with each other. They only 'need' us for something to shoot at. All you want to 'win' is some imaginary idea in your head, the same sort of idea we detested GWB for.

If you really wanted to take over and own Afghanistan, there are plenty of ways to do it. Being a sitting target isn't one of them. It'd involve a whole lot of killing against the murderers like those who attacked the UN in the protest. I'm betting that is no where to be found in your plan. I bet you'd have us continue to stand by as they go on their bloody rampage.

Leaving our people to die is not acceptable. Our military is a killing machine, not a police force. The Afghanistan people can police themselves and call us in when something needs to die. In, and out. That is how you fight wars and if this is NOT a war, then they do not need us.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
These savages in Muslim countries will burn bibles, churches, people, but god forbid anyone in the rest of the world harm the Koran or image of Mohamed, because they'll go on mindless rampages killing in the name of their religion. That's an issue, but that's not my immediate concern here.

Afghanistan is not worth one more American life and we should get the hell out of that worthless craphole. That's an issue, but that's not my immediate concern here.

I think it's important to make a point that in the real world -not the world we'd like to exist- we should have the brains and emotional maturity to temper what we have the right to do with what we should do. I know you have this need to feel all big and righteous about our rights and need to pound your chest over “curtailing our rights to appease nutjobs who are offended,” but words come cheap for a small person like you. You're not the one affected.

This deliberately staged act came after they were warned by fellow religious leaders and government officials -including Bush and Petraeus- of the very real possibility that their publicity stunt would provoke just this type of reaction from radical Muslims. The president and commander don't get to operate in a pretty world of theory and false bravado... they deal with the realities on the ground, where people die because of the actions of others.

When some nutcase pulls a bullshit stunt and spouts off that we are in a holy war with Islam they give a tremendous boost to Al Qaeda's propaganda machine. They are acting in direct opposition to the strategy behind our "war on terror." Bush spent almost his entire term in the White House trying to convince the Muslim world that America's war on radical terrorists is not a war on Islam in general. Obama has continued that. Our success hinges on convincing enough Muslim nations and people that we are not fighting a holy war. Whoever encourages or applauds idiots like Jones and Boykin is aiding our enemies. That is the simple fact you cannot ignore: YOU are hurting our troops. Those are my brothers over there.

In WWII, people made a lot of sacrifices and didn't do some things, even though they had the right, because they knew it could hurt the war effort. And I wonder where you were, knucklehead, when that Iman wanted to plant a mosque next to the WTC site... he had the RIGHT to do that, even though restraint and discretion should prevail. You have the RIGHT to go spouting off to some Hell's Angel dude about how crappy his ride is, or drive through Compton blaring White Power music, but I doubt you'll do that even though your obviously so committed to free speech, you fucking hypocrite, maybe it's not so much about free speech but rather you just have a penis size issue with Islam. Cut your nose to spite your face...

Speaking of WW2 you think we played these PC bullshit games then? Or rather called a spade a kraut worth bombing the fuck out of and rolled on? We'd never had won walking on eggshells or with platitudes of hearts and minds and moms and dads just like us - like we won't win here appeasing middle eastern Nazism.

But keep on with that money sink and delusions. I want no part of it and call everyone involved a god damn fool.

Fuck we can't even bring ourselves to admit where all the hate and savagery comes from. Not Mien Kamph this time which we banned but Quran. Fools led by fools.
 
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Redfraggle

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2009
2,413
0
0
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Ya go ahead, blame JOS for having the brains to say that Sapp and Jones just made his job and Nato's job a heck of a lot harder. How many more Nato, American, and UN troops will die just so that Sapp and Jones can show boat as they only senselessly piss 1.4 billion people off.

This quite honestly. It's certainly not illegal for Jones to have done what he did. But, as I often say -- Just because you can do a thing, doesn't mean you should.

He showed a huge amount of disrespect, not just towards the Quran, but towards all religions. He'd be out in the streets having a fit if he knew people were burning the Bible. Hell, I'm tempted to go get one, put it through the shredder and send it to him even. You don't go around burning anyone's holy book.

Plus, "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones." A lot of heinous acts were done in the name of Christianity during the Crusades. Put your own holy book on trial there Jones, see how well it fares.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
This quite honestly. It's certainly not illegal for Jones to have done what he did. But, as I often say -- Just because you can do a thing, doesn't mean you should.

He showed a huge amount of disrespect, not just towards the Quran, but towards all religions. He'd be out in the streets having a fit if he knew people were burning the Bible. Hell, I'm tempted to go get one, put it through the shredder and send it to him even. You don't go around burning anyone's holy book.

Plus, "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones." A lot of heinous acts were done in the name of Christianity during the Crusades. Put your own holy book on trial there Jones, see how well it fares.

We should be disrespecting it it's an anathema to liberalism.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
I wonder what will happen if the Muslims will issue will issue a Fatwa against Sapp and Jones in particular?

The Muslims did the same thing to Solomon Rustie for the sin of penning the satanic verses.

Maybe we can say is that Rustie is still alive even if he had to go into hiding, but in the fullness of time can we say Sapp and Jones will stay alive for a far greater sin of being just plain far more senseless and stupid.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I wonder what will happen if the Muslims will issue will issue a Fatwa against Sapp and Jones in particular?

The Muslims did the same thing to Solomon Rustie for the sin of penning the satanic verses.

Maybe we can say is that Rustie is still alive even if he had to go into hiding, but in the fullness of time can we say Sapp and Jones will stay alive for a far greater sin of being just plain far more senseless and stupid.


Oh yeah a "religion" that puts hits out on people and who's clerics have hit teams in retinue and we should respect this? Senseless and stupid indeed.

The answer is I'm sure he thought about it and decided... cowards die many times before their deaths. The valiant never taste of death but once... Many in this thread are dying. Freedom is dying.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon law View Post
call me a neocon.
Ok.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Habasusa Rider the idiot thinks proving me a neocon will solve a single thing, I have only pity for Haybasusa Rider reasoning.

The interesting thing about neocons is that their origins are from the left. Disenchanted that their social engineering schemes failed domestically they then tried again overseas. They found allies like Bush who thought we'd be greeted with roses. That didn't work out so well. So what do we have? The same old. What do these people want? It isn't us. They want us gone yet you want us to hang around because like the neocons you can't accept that we simply aren't wanted at all. So you look for justifications and scapegoats. You are like the guy on a date that thinks no means yes. It doesn't.