Afghan Government corruption--the USA still on the bubble

[Lemon law]

As I have been saying for about 4.5 years on P&N, we can't sell Nato and American democratic values to the Afghan people without improving the totally corrupt Governance of the current Karzai government.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/13/world/asia/13afghan.html?ref=global-home

And even if I think McCrystal is a huge improvement over the clueless Nato command we had before, the George statement I will not worry so much about Corruption, I will worry about overall Governance. As if it is an either or and not both which puzzles me completely.

But as we have already done in Marja, we are now preparing for another much bigger offensive without fully understanding the luke warm results we got in Marja. And since troops in Marja will likely be pulled out to fuel the larger coming Kandahar offensive, will all of our Marja results evaporate?

IMHO, of all the gin joint leaders Nato could have selected or favored, Karzai has proved to be an unmitigated disaster. Can Nato ever win with that total dud on our side?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

As I have been saying for about 4.5 years on P&N, we can't sell Nato and American democratic values to the Afghan people without improving the totally corrupt Governance of the current Karzai government.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/13/world/asia/13afghan.html?ref=global-home

And even if I think McCrystal is a huge improvement over the clueless Nato command we had before, the George statement I will not worry so much about Corruption, I will worry about overall Governance. As if it is an either or and not both which puzzles me completely.

But as we have already done in Marja, we are now preparing for another much bigger offensive without fully understanding the luke warm results we got in Marja. And since troops in Marja will likely be pulled out to fuel the larger coming Kandahar offensive, will all of our Marja results evaporate?

IMHO, of all the gin joint leaders Nato could have selected or favored, Karzai has proved to be an unmitigated disaster. Can Nato ever win with that total dud on our side?

The Afgan government has ALWAYS been corrupt.

We can't sell Nato and American democratic values to the Afghan people without destroying their culture.

Fixed that for ya. They have been at war for centuries except for brief intervals when they have been occupied by stronger forces.

The situation is NOT new and if we are truly serious about stability in the region, we have only two choices. First, to occupy the region for the foreseeable future while maintaining martial law or second, to teach English and American customs to the children while prohibiting any cultural displays or gatherings of the general populace. In addition, all religious practices will need to be eliminated or forcibly converted to another. In either case, it will take several generations and I doubt we have the stomach for either.

 

[Noobtastic]

The Afgan government has ALWAYS been corrupt.

yup.

afghan has never had a real functioning government. it is silly to assume the USA could somehow force a reformed leadership considering our history in Jordan, Egypt, and Iraq.

the only country where exporting democracy has been successful is...Israel.

what we should do is send karzai to the taliban and replace him with a pro-american dictator. get read of the "democratic process" because that is epic fail. kill all taliban and punish villages that hide them.

either that, or we leave.

under obama's current military policy we will NEVER leave afghanistan.

 

[Lemon law]

Gotta half way agree with IHV, the only country where exporting organized Palestinian thievery is Israel. Arm Israel to the teeth and the thieves will come in a field of dreams scenario that it can ever last forever, or even much longer. As Netanyuhu is not exactly a US friend worth investing in, my previous point about Karzai. Both are a bridge to nowhere, but in totally different ways.

But still, IHV, this is a thread about Afghanistan and not Israel, at least Magnus stayed on topic even if his response was not exactly optimistic or something I think is realistic.

As for that other IHV contention, "under obama's current military policy we will NEVER leave afghanistan." That is a maybe or maybe not, Obama has gone on record, we are out of Afghanistan in two years no matter what. Or maybe IHV would prefer to believe the Eisenhower or Nixon pledge that they would solve Korea and Vietnam pledge in their first term.

 

[Noobtastic]

Gotta half way agree with IHV, the only country where exporting organized Palestinian thievery is Israel. Arm Israel to the teeth and the thieves will come in a field of dreams scenario that it can ever last forever, or even much longer. As Netanyuhu is not exactly a US friend worth investing in, my previous point about Karzai. Both are a bridge to nowhere, but in totally different ways.

But still, IHV, this is a thread about Afghanistan and not Israel, at least Magnus stayed on topic even if his response was not exactly optimistic or something I think is realistic.

i never said it was about israel, i SAID the only successful case of exporting democracy to foreign lands is israel.

attempts to impose democratic reform in egypt, jordan, and afghanistan has failed miserably.

like it or not israel has contributed more to the DOD than all other nato allies combined. in fact, last month the US military met with the israelis and formulating a strategy in afghanistan to create better results on the battlefield.

NATO has done the same.

as we have boosted our presense in afghanistan, the taliban has become even more stronger. even though we have killed upwards of 30,000 taliban, they continue to recruit more and more.

they are up against 130,000 well-trained and armed american, europe, and NA soldiers.

and yet, we continue to fail.

why are we there?

As for that other IHV contention, "under obama's current military policy we will NEVER leave afghanistan." That is a maybe or maybe not, Obama has gone on record, we are out of Afghanistan in two years no matter what. Or maybe IHV would prefer to believe the Eisenhower or Nixon pledge that they would solve Korea and Vietnam pledge in their first term.

so your argument is essentially obama says we'll be out in 2 years, so it must be true.

please, explain to me how our current military policy in afghanistan shows an exit strategy.

what are our goals in afghanistan? destroying the taliban? re-building afghanistan? how much will this cost? how long will it take? estimated casualties?

etc.

these are things obama cannot answer. his recent pledge of support for pakistan's military does not scream exit-strategy to me.

highly unlikely we will be out in 2 years with the current policy.

no way in hell...

 

[Lemon law]

As IHV says, "i never said it was about israel, i SAID the only successful case of exporting democracy to foreign lands is israel."

Sadly 404 link to permanent success in Israel totally not found.

Like Afghanistan, like Israel, unless the USA address's the real systemic problems, all we in the USA buy is more lasting quagmires. And bridges to no where as we expend much money and effort to buy shit results. Can't exactly say Obama is a role model, but Obama is at least a step in the right direction in terms of confronting those real systemic problems that his predecessors failed to even honestly confront.

 

[Noobtastic]

As IHV says, "i never said it was about israel, i SAID the only successful case of exporting democracy to foreign lands is israel."

Sadly 404 link to permanent success in Israel totally not found.

what? you're making this thread about israel, not me. LemonLoser, please respond to my post or don't at all.

Like Afghanistan, like Israel, unless the USA address's the real systemic problems, all we in the USA buy is more lasting quagmires. And bridges to no where as we expend much money and effort to buy shit results. Can't exactly say Obama is a role model, but Obama is at least a step in the right direction in terms of confronting those real systemic problems that his predecessors failed to even honestly confront.

gibberish.

afghanistan and israel are unrelated.

afghanistan is america's responsibility. it has invented hundreds of billions into the country, in addition to the 20+ billion plus gifted to pakistan which has mostly been wasted or siphoned off by the leadership.

israel is irrelevant at this point. YOU need to respond to my POINTS. your argument is predicated on obama talking points.