Afghan civilian deaths up 6%

[Lemon law]

While there are lies, damn lies, and statistics, we have maybe at least three entities
in Afghanistan keeping some sort of box score. Even if none of three agree totally.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100808/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan

But still I think Nato is now making some progress in reducing the collateral damage it causes. And largely thank McCrystal for a policy that Petraeus decided to retain.

Because according to the Afghan human rights commission in all the current war related civilian deaths to the box score is.

1. A full 68% were caused by the Taliban and or Al-Quida.

2. A full 23% were caused by either Nato or Afghan army forces.

3. The remaining 9% were undetermined because the deaths occurred in areas to dangerous to investigate safely.

But the main point is, the average Afghan civilian is now more likely to die due to the insurgency forces, rather than anti insurgency forces. And if Nato and the Afghan army can get that 23% figure down quite a bit, its quite possible that the Afghan people will start ti get very hostile to the Taliban.

 

[blackangst1]

Yeah, but this is a "just" cause. Deaths like this in Iraq were an outrage, this is "acceptable losses".

 

[JSt0rm]

Yeah, but this is a "just" cause. Deaths like this in Iraq were an outrage, this is "acceptable losses".

yes yes. Iraq was a good idea. we know.

 

[hal2kilo]

What do you expect from animals that use the general population as human shields. The fucks just killed 6 unarmed people who were only trying to help the people.

This is where I part company with Obama. There's no bringing democracy let along civilization to a bunch of thieving tribal miscreants.

Leave them to themselves. There is nothing to be gained by staying in that shithole.

 

[khon]

What about the various warlords ? Are we to believe that they didn't kill any civilians ?

Anyway the place is a damn mess, and the International forces should have left about 7-8 years ago.

 

[Craig234]

What do you except from animals that use the general population as human shields. The fucks just killed 6 unarmed people who were only trying to help the people.

This is where I part company with Obama. There's no bringing democracy let along civilization to a bunch of thieving tribal miscreants.

Leave them to themselves. There is nothing to be gained by staying in that shithole.

The funny thing is, I disagree with this. The Taliban never had 10% public support, but they had organization and arms and could take power.

I think we have done some good there, and the more we have a humanitarian agenda, the more we can help create the ability of the people to protect themselves.

I've seen enough documentaries from people who have been there to the people who live there to see there's much very different than the quoted post.

It's when our agenda is corrupted to one of the politics of winning war, of corruption, and other interests - the old 'support a regime friendly to our corporations however bad it is' that we seem to have more problems. There are no easy answers, but leaving the nation to the risk of Taliban domination again has real issues. Sometimes, it seems liberals can overreact to the history of a war being started by a guy they don't like for reasons they don't like and being lied to about it, by simply opposing it.

I'm just saying it's a complex challenge to look at the options.

 

[hal2kilo]

I think we have done some good there, and the more we have a humanitarian agenda, the more we can help create the ability of the people to protect themselves.

I've seen enough documentaries from people who have been there to the people who live there to see there's much very different than the quoted post.

I don't care how many pictures of women with their nose cut off you show me. I know it's sad. I'm done with bringing civilization to people who as a whole haven't had the fortitude to clean up their own mess for 10s of centuries. Once again all we are doing is firing up the zealots more, so they can recruit even more people who hate the west.

When will we learn that good intentions don't mean anything in these situations.

 

[Lemon law]

I don't know if you have seen US pictures of black men hooked to cars and drug to death, or medical doctors shot because they offended some anti-abortionists kook, or seen all them cool pics Charles Granger took of his antics at Abu Ghrab, but every country has its share of violent kooks.

It does not mean we should write off the USA as hopeless either.

 

[Orignal Earl]

What do you except from animals that use the general population as human shields. The fucks just killed 6 unarmed people who were only trying to help the people.

This is where I part company with Obama. There's no bringing democracy let along civilization to a bunch of thieving tribal miscreants.

Leave them to themselves. There is nothing to be gained by staying in that shithole.

I'm willing to bet those 6 people would totally disagree with you

 

[hal2kilo]

I'm willing to bet those 6 people would totally disagree with you

I would bet it too. And look what happened to them.

 

[blackangst1]

yes yes. Iraq was a good idea. we know.

Sarcasm meter. Get one.

Or change the batteries in yours.

 

[nick1985]

Leave.

The Afghans cannot get their shit together to help themselves, and they have had almost 10 years to do it.

Monitor Afghanistan and if terrorist training camps pop up, send in some cruise missiles.

Leave

 

[Orignal Earl]

I would bet it too. And look what happened to them.

Yep,.. willing to die for something they totally believe in. That takes some guts

Leave.

You've almost convinced me that's the American way

 

[nick1985]

You've almost convinced me that's the American way

We are banging our heads against the wall. Our enemy is hiding in Pakistan and our military is so hamstrung by the ROE that we cannot win.

Dying for nothing is the American way? We went in, kicked out AQ and the Taliban and gave them a democracy. Its time to get the fuck out, nothing else is getting solved. No amount of troop surge will change anything since our enemy is based in Pakistan.

Get our troops out, but keep up drone/cruise attacks to prevent Afghanistan terrorist camps from popping up again.

Enough is enough

 

[Orignal Earl]

Get our troops out, but keep up drone/cruise attacks to prevent Afghanistan terrorist camps from popping up again.

Enough is enough

Sheesh if it's that easy why didn't you guys just do it that way from the beginning, instead of dragging a bunch of other countries in to protect you from the Taliban

 

[hal2kilo]

Sheesh if it's that easy why didn't you guys just do it that way from the beginning, instead of dragging a bunch of other countries in to protect you from the Taliban

Wow that's a stretch. As far as I can tell the other NATO coutries are there for show. Here comes JOS.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Wow that's a stretch. As far as I can tell the other NATO coutries are there for show. Here comes JOS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%27s_role_in_the_Afghanistan_War#Fatalities

And of course many Brits and others have done the ultimate sacrifice for America. It always saddens me to see so many posters ignorant of these things. I know for a fact though, members of your military are grateful.

 

[nick1985]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%27s_role_in_the_Afghanistan_War#Fatalities

And of course many Brits and others have done the ultimate sacrifice for America. It always saddens me to see so many posters ignorant of these things. I know for a fact though, members of your military are grateful.

Thats great other people support us. It doesnt change a damn thing about what I said though.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Thats great other people support us. It doesnt change a damn thing about what I said though.

I suppose... but you got to agree with me too then eh, Iraq is still worse off then ever and one day America will just leave, your calling for leaving Afghanistan and of course there was Vietnam. There is a pattern there.

 

[Lemon law]

Leave.

The Afghans cannot get their shit together to help themselves, and they have had almost 10 years to do it.

Monitor Afghanistan and if terrorist training camps pop up, send in some cruise missiles.

Leave

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earth to Nick, you are about the most clueless idiots of the century.

Why did we invade Afghanistan after 911 in the first place? Short answer we did not want Al-Quida to have a country of their own.

Have we prevented Al-Quida from having a country of their own in Afghanistan?

Will killing all 31 million Afghan civilians somehow prevent Al-Quida from regaining Afghanistan as a country of their own when we are really fighting something else, namely the Taliban. Is that working yet or are we making negative progress?

Meanwhile back at the ranch, while all eyes are on Iraq and Afghanistan, Al_quida is making a pile of other countries into other Al-Quida homelands.

Shall we next nuke everyone in Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, Iraq, and Pakistan? But well, hell since ole England and the USA have some Muslims population, how can Nick escape the need to exterminate the Muslim infestation by nuking the USA and GB as well.

Actually the only sure way to achieve peace on earth, kill every human being on the planet.

 

[nick1985]

Earth to Nick, you are about the most clueless idiots of the century.

And you are on of the biggest shit-eating pieces of filth I have ever come across in my life. I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.

:thumbsup:

Why did we invade Afghanistan after 911 in the first place? Short answer we did not want Al-Quida to have a country of their own.

No shit.

Have we prevented Al-Quida from having a country of their own in Afghanistan?

Yeah, and with a heavy toll. We could easily prevent AQ from having Afghanistan training camps with drones/missiles

Will killing all 31 million Afghan civilians somehow prevent Al-Quida from regaining Afghanistan as a country of their own when we are really fighting something else, namely the Taliban. Is that working yet or are we making negative progress?

Huh? At this point we are making negative progress. We kicked out AQ and removed the Taliban from power, but they are now based in Pakistan and we have very, VERY limited ways to combat them now. Negative progress is an understatement at this point.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, while all eyes are on Iraq and Afghanistan, Al_quida is making a pile of other countries into other Al-Quida homelands.

Yep. We need to be focusing on these places. Training camps are up and running in several countries. We have become distracted.

Shall we next nuke everyone in Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, Iraq, and Pakistan?

Who said anything about nukes? Thats silly. I do think we should be sending in drones/cruise missiles into camps in these nations.

But well, hell since ole England and the USA have some Muslims population, how can Nick escape the need to exterminate the Muslim infestation by nuking the USA and GB as well.

What the fuck are you saying? Are you implying I am for the extermination of muslims? Grow a fucking brain

Actually the only sure way to achieve peace on earth, kill every human being on the planet.

More nonsense

 

[nick1985]

I suppose... but you got to agree with me too then eh, Iraq is still worse off then ever and one day America will just leave, your calling for leaving Afghanistan and of course there was Vietnam. There is a pattern there.

I disagree there. Iraq is still unstable, but it is much better than what it was. Their security forces will soon be able to take over from us completely according to reports. There are still bombings here and there, but not like it was a few years ago before the surge.

The problem with a surge in Afghanistan is that the enemy isn't in Afghanistan. I dont even understand it. We could have 5 million troops in Afghanistan and it would only do so much with our enemies' base of operations in Pakistan. See what I'm saying?

 

[Jaskalas]

I agree with Nick. Screw nation building, leave Afghanistan. If they hit us again, we burn it to rubble and leave it that way.

Lemon law and Craig234 seem to be in here touting the Neocon line of nation building. Taking ownership of "stay the course" is quite strange.

 

[nick1985]

Lemon law and Craig234 seem to be in here touting the Neocon line of nation building. Taking ownership of "stay the course" is quite strange.

They are just blindly following Obama's lead.

 

[Jaskalas]

They are just blindly following Obama's lead.

In their defense, I was following Bush's lead until 2006. A bit late to vote against him on 04. I wonder if they'll learn any faster. I very much doubt it.