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Advise on home server build...

G

GZeus

Senior member
I'm planning a home server build sometime this summer but not sure what to do when it comes to RAID...

My plan is to run 4 x 400-500GB HDDs in RAID5 for all the data (movies, tunes, pics, etc) and a couple of low capacity HDDs in RAID1 for the OS.

The main problem is that I'm not sure of the better route to go... find a RAID Mobo with 6 SATA connections for running the 2 RAID setups... or get a RAID card to run the data on and run the OS off the Mobo??? The cost of a quality RAID card is way up there, but a Mobo with 6 SATAs ain't exactly cheap either.

On the other hand, maybe I'm thinking about this all wrong 😕..... any advise would be appreciated!

I'm in as a beta tester of Windows Home Server and want to have a little fun with that too - with backed-up data of course
 
Originally posted by: GZeus
I'm planning a home server build sometime this summer

maybe I'm thinking about this all wrong 😕..... any advise would be appreciated!
Click to expand...
If you're serious about the integrity and reliability of your build... Use a good server MB with PCI-X or 64-bit PCI slots, along with a quality RAID card.
Quality and reliability doesn't come cheap. 😉

 
Thanks for the input Blain.

From what I can see, a server MB and a quality (assuming you mean hardware RAID) card will run me around $400-$600 together. Any suggestions on which ones/brands?
 
Originally posted by: GZeus
I'm in as a beta tester of Windows Home Server and want to have a little fun with that too - with backed-up data of course
Click to expand...

Considering that Windows Home Server does its own version of data protection with storage, perhaps you may not need RAID.

As to your question about ports.
You always get the same argument of on-board ports vs add-in cards. Using an onboard controller on the motherboard usually means that you are tied to that specific motherboard or a motherboard like it with the same onboard controller in the event that you have a motherboard/controller failure. So you may not be able to just move your disks to any other computer in the event of a failure.

The problem with add-in controllers is that they're usually quite expensive, usually need a pci-x slot (although pci slots usually work for this) or pci-e 4x slot, and you have to trudge through the mix of cards to find one that is a hardware solution or a software solution depending on your needs.

What's the best solution? That depends on you. What's your budget for this system? What are your requirements for data uptime? Do you have a need or plan for separate backups? If you lose your data, are you totally dead in the water or would you be able to rebuild your data without incredible amounts of pain?
 
First, you don't need a hardware RAID card. It's just another point of failure, and they're damned expensive. It is VERY unlikely you have performance requirements that would require such a card.

Second, if you're running Windows Home Server, you don't need RAID 5. They've got a RAID-like system on there that handles redundancy and storage pooling for you.

Finally, I'd also question whether RAID 1 is really needed for the boot drive. However, if you think it is, your mobo's BIOS should handle that just peachy. The problem with using mobo-RAID is that you've got to get drivers and such for the Windows install, which can be a pain in the ass.
 
Diito to all of Blain's replies.

I would definately go for HW raid AND SW raid. Yes, both are possible.
 
I would definately go for HW raid AND SW raid. Yes, both are possible.
Click to expand...

It does work. Just seems like kind of a waste unless you want to get some combination that would otherwise require more expensive hardware (like a RAID50/51; get a bunch of cheap controllers and make RAID0 or RAID1 arrays on them, then do software RAID5 on top, or you can do a software RAID0/RAID1 of two hardware RAID5/6 arrays, etc.)

If you don't think CPU time will be a problem, software RAID5 is generally fine. Hardware RAID5 may be a little more reliable, but it's generally expensive. And if your CPU/RAM is unstable, you may end up corrupting the data on the array anyway no matter how good the controller is (this happened to me when my NB fan died and I didn't realize it for a while; the chipset started randomly corrupting the data being written to disk. Not fun.)
 
A couple of limitations if you're considering motherboard RAID (for Windows; you should probably use OS RAID for non-Windows):

Intel on-board desktop RAID -- typically limited to 4 drives per array regardless of how many RAID-enabled ports. (6 ports commonly available, and you can have various combinations of arrays among these ports, but no single RAID array with more than 4 drives/ports.)

nVIDIA on-board RAID -- can extend to 6 drives, but AFAIK, is limited to 2 TiB for a single array. (I've heard this second-hand.)

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=18240&hl=

There are also some OS issues with exceeding the 2 TiB limit for a single array / volume.

With anywhere near this sort of data volume, you should seriously consider external backups. The chance of total failure is not small, and with such large arrays, you'd lose a lot of data / recovery time. Of course this is a bigger issue for original data.

As previously mentioned, WHS is not RAID-friendly, so there these issues don't apply; of course others do. (FWIW, I'd expect Vista to be able to out-perform WHS; but because of how WHS likes to own the system, I haven't been able to test it as I've been able to test a number of other OSs -- with multi-booting.)

The RocketRAID 23xx series is a cheap alternative. Decent performance, OS support, and expandability. If you get a modern motherboard with on-board video (or an ancient PCI video card in addition), you could drop one in the x16 PCIe slot.

Again, I wouldn't solely rely on one of these systems, nor any single RAID system regardless of how highly praised / stable and well-supported it's supposed to be -- I'd have a backup in addition.
 
Thanks to all for the replies. I'll try to answer some of the questions...

I'm trying to limit the budget on this one. I have spare cases, PSUs, memory, HDDs, etc lying around and I'm planning on using what I have as much as possible and keeping the remaining costs under control. The question of weather to use a card or a mobo is because either one of these would be the one thing that I would have to buy to complete the basic setup.

I am considering RAID1 for the OS simply because I have a spare pair of 160GB HDDs and I was hoping that this would give me - or more importantly, my GF - some protection from having to swap a HDD just to access movies or music at 2am. It looks like I'll have to reconsider this since it appears that some of the RAID cards would be incompatible with mobo RAID running at the same time.

Unfortunately, I don't know much about the WHS data protection scheme though I admit to being a bit paranoid about trusting an OS with data protection. I'll dig a bit more on that. Due to work, I haven't had much time to even read the WHS materials let alone assemble the test machine. Hopefully that will change in the next couple of weeks.

I was aware that there are some problems with +2TB storage - though not the specifics. I'll probably use the 2 WD400GBs I have and add 2 more for data. This should give me enough storage for a few years and allow me avoid the 2TB limit.

I want to make as robust a server as possible without spending unnecessarily... but I have learned first hand the necessity of external backups so I'm not planning on relying on RAID as a backup solution. All the data will have external backup and the OS will be cloned on a spare drive. In fact, I'm planning on using the externals as the primary data storage and then using SyncBack, or something similar, to dump new stuff on the server as needed.

I plan on running it 24/7 and storing it out of the way somewhere. As much as possible - allowing for backups and maintenance - I'm hoping for a fairly simple 'set it and forget it' solution.

Thanks again for the replies!
 
Originally posted by: GZeus
I'm trying to limit the budget on this one. I have spare cases, PSUs, memory, HDDs, etc lying around and I'm planning on using what I have as much as possible and keeping the remaining costs under control. The question of weather to use a card or a mobo is because either one of these would be the one thing that I would have to buy to complete the basic setup.
Click to expand...

You don't want to use a card. It is tremendous overkill for this situation.

Unfortunately, I don't know much about the WHS data protection scheme though I admit to being a bit paranoid about trusting an OS with data protection. I'll dig a bit more on that. Due to work, I haven't had much time to even read the WHS materials let alone assemble the test machine. Hopefully that will change in the next couple of weeks.
Click to expand...

On the WHS boards, I've read about people successfully testing the redundancy by yanking random drives. It works, at least so far as I've seen.

I want to make as robust a server as possible without spending unnecessarily... but I have learned first hand the necessity of external backups so I'm not planning on relying on RAID as a backup solution. All the data will have external backup and the OS will be cloned on a spare drive. In fact, I'm planning on using the externals as the primary data storage and then using SyncBack, or something similar, to dump new stuff on the server as needed.
Click to expand...

You really want Windows Home Server and a motherboard with a bunch of SATA ports, at least in my opinion.
 
AFAIK, WHS is intended as an OEM-only bundled product, which makes a lot of sense -- if the "don't think about, just plug it in" attitude appeals to you, then an off-the-shelf product which has the hardware choices also made for you would also appeal to you.

When will this product be available for purchase? How can I buy it?

Windows Home Server will be available through the retail channel within a wide range of new hardware products. The first products are targeted for availability in the second half of 2007. It will be available in English, German, French, and Spanish.

How much will Windows Home Server cost?

OEMs will set the final pricing for their products, depending on the storage capacity and additional capabilities. We'll have more information to share in the future.
Click to expand...

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/produc...nfamily/windowshomeserver/default.mspx
 
Originally posted by: erwos

You really want Windows Home Server and a motherboard with a bunch of SATA ports, at least in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input. The problem seems to be finding a suitable board with 6 SATA's (not including externals) at a reasonable price... +/-$100.

Originally posted by: Madwand1
AFAIK, WHS is intended as an OEM-only bundled product, which makes a lot of sense -- if the "don't think about, just plug it in" attitude appeals to you, then an off-the-shelf product which has the hardware choices also made for you would also appeal to you.
Click to expand...


I'm aware of the intention to release it initially as OEM-only. My plan is to run the last beta or RC release as long as possible. If this becomes a problem, then I will 'adjust'. I'm guessing the there will be an 'un-official' release on the web at some point....
Just because I want a low maintenance system doesn't mean I want a prefab made by Dell. As this is going to be the storage/server for my home network I would prefer to build it right the first time in as robust a way as possible. As much as I like building, I don't really enjoy rebuilding. Thanks anyway.
 
Originally posted by: Blain
If you're serious about the integrity and reliability of your build... Use a good server MB with PCI-X or 64-bit PCI slots, along with a quality RAID card.
Quality and reliability doesn't come cheap. 😉
Click to expand...

Well, I'll disagree on two fronts.

(1) PCI-X is dying and largely inappropriate for consumer-level users. You get far more choices with PCIe; it's the future, and even "real server" builds are adopting them. There are many choices for PCIe storage controllers; many new high-end ones.

(2) Desktop motherboards can also be pretty stable these days. If you keep the OS stable, don't overclock, keep on installing new software etc, as you would on a typical gamer build, a desktop build can be more than stable enough for a home NAS application.

I have a "real server" NAS and a couple of "desktop" NAS builds here. I don't see any real advantage in the "real server" NAS build, and disadvantages in flexibility and pricing.

I wouldn't make the same argument for a multi-user server that's going to used in a business setting with real dollars measuring down-time costs, but we're not talking about that here.

A concrete example: Asus P5B-VM DO. On-board video, 6x ICH8DO, PCIe x16, x4, on-board Intel PCIe gigabit (no jumbo frame support though), etc.

http://www.asus.com/products4.aspx?modelmenu=2&model=1421&l1=3&l2=11&l3=371

BTW, ensure that you have a good PSU with plenty of 12V current capacity. Hard drives take a fair amount of 12V current, esp. when booting, and as you multiply them, you multiply the overall power requirement. A good PSU will help keep your server running and stable.

Also watch out for RAM voltage compatibility issues with such motherboards (due to the chipset).
 
Originally posted by: GZeus
I'm aware of the intention to release it initially as OEM-only. My plan is to run the last beta or RC release as long as possible. If this becomes a problem, then I will 'adjust'. I'm guessing the there will be an 'un-official' release on the web at some point....
Just because I want a low maintenance system doesn't mean I want a prefab made by Dell. As this is going to be the storage/server for my home network I would prefer to build it right the first time in as robust a way as possible. As much as I like building, I don't really enjoy rebuilding. Thanks anyway.
Click to expand...

IMO, Vista is actually a better platform for a file server, and WHS may come into fruition later down the road once Longhorn server is released and its back end is migrated to WHS 2.0 or whatever.

WHS has its down sides, and so I think that more technically-capable people shouldn't be going ga-ga over it.

That said, the "no RAID" and "just add a drive" are definitely convenient. I personally don't want to trade off real RAID and performance capability for just that, and find that RAID rebuilding, esp. given a real backup to not be such a chore when done rarely enough, but that's a trade-off for which the reverse opinion may be more valid to others.
 
Thanks Madwand1. You answered a basic question I never really thought to ask - is there any advantage going with a 'real' server set-up over a 'desktop' setup.

I don't plan to overclock as I don't see any need for it on a server set-up. I have a quality PSU (FSP) and plenty of suitable ram - both DDR and DDR2 - waiting for this build.
That's a nice board - the eSATA is a bonus. I wonder what I can find for an AMD with similar features.
 
Since it's come up, I'll mention OS compatibility with 2TB+ drives.

Windows XP x32 cannot address greater than 2TB drives. The extra space is just wasted.

Windows XP x64 can address greater than 2TB drives if you convert the disk to a GPT disk. This 2TB+ disk cannot be your OS disk. You sacrifice some space to address the space above 2TB.

Windows 2003 x32 with SP1 and Windows 2003 x64 can address greater than 2TB if you convert to GPT disks. Again, the OS cannot exist on the 2TB disk.

Windows Vista should support 2TB+ drives, but I haven't had a chance to play with this yet.


Also, I'd like to second that server hardware is not by any means a requirement when it comes to performing the function of a server. Server-class hardware is designed around RAS (reliability, accessibility and serviceability, not remote access server). The server is designed with multiple levels of redundancy, hardware to catch errors that would otherwise go unnoticed, ease of maintenance without causing downtime, remote and local managability, standard approved and accepted hardware on the OS HCL, and the ability to be densely contained.

Businesses need that because at this day and age, if the servers go down countless people are sitting idle or possibly sales are unable to proceed. For home use, where there are only a handful of people accessing the server a few times a day, any old machine could act as a server. The only really critical point is that your data be protected if its important.
 
I completely agree with Madwand1:

You do not need PCI-X to get a good hardware RAID card. There are many quality PCIe boards available. These are good for low-end servers like home servers if you've got the money. Like:
Areca ARC-1210
3ware 9650-4LPML

I think that hardware RAID cards and server motherboards are overkill for home servers. I'm not a huge fan of motherboard-integrated RAID, though. I think I read this 1st on HardOCP...it really bashes integrated RAID 0 and RAID 1:
Why RAID is (usually) a Terrible Idea from Puget Computers
Maybe integrated RAID5 is better???

Personally, I would go with a linux-based software RAID5 system. It doesn't require fancy hardware and should be faster since it does the raid computation on your CPU rather than a RAID microcontroller worth a few $10s. See:
Linux: Why software RAID?

Don't wait for and pay extra for Windows Home Server, use linux!! 🙂
-Knavish
 
Damn.... I knew eventually someone would say "linux"! Surprised it took so long. 🙂
How long can I go on avoiding it?

While we're at it I might as well ask.... is there a 'preferred' linux software raid solution? What's the good/bad of something like FreeNAS?
 
Originally posted by: GZeus
Damn.... I knew eventually someone would say "linux"! Surprised it took so long. 🙂
How long can I go on avoiding it?
Click to expand...

I just think it's a natural extension of building your own computer. Part of why people build their own computers rather than buying a Dell is because they enjoy tweaking all the parameters to get the best price / performance. Certain linux distributions try to be completely gui based (the best to start with) and others allow you to fine tune your OS.

A server is the best place to play with linux because you don't have to be really concerned about video and sound performance, and it includes things like RAID, remote login, file sharing, webserving, etc all in one installation for free. What more could you ask for...lol.

🙂
 
Originally posted by: Madwand1
AFAIK, WHS is intended as an OEM-only bundled product, which makes a lot of sense -- if the "don't think about, just plug it in" attitude appeals to you, then an off-the-shelf product which has the hardware choices also made for you would also appeal to you.
Click to expand...
You might have noticed that you can buy OEM Windows products all over the Internet, too. If WHS is not available for purchase somehow, I will be shocked. They wouldn't beta test the thing like they are if that wasn't the eventual intention.

If the OP is balking at spending more than $100 on a motherboard, it's unlikely he's going to spring for a $500 RAID card, not even considering that it might fail and require him to buy a replacement. That's the key point I think people are missing. You can get a mobo with 8 SATA ports for < $200, easy. Just use power search on Newegg.

The Linux solution is a good idea - it's actually what I use (Fedora Core 6). But don't fool yourself - it takes time and knowledge to set up and administrate. If you want a good, extensible file server, you're going to need to know, at the very least, LVM/EVMS, Samba, and md. If the OP doesn't have time and knowledge, WHS is a pretty good alternative, especially with the automated backup functionality it provides for Windows clients. The people dissing it really need to research it - it's based off SBS 2003, and it's got some really stunning features. Performance is also pretty good from the benchmarks I've seen. Passing off Linux as a total replacement is probably ill-informed at best.
 
Originally posted by: erwos
The people dissing it really need to research it - it's based off SBS 2003, and it's got some really stunning features. Performance is also pretty good from the benchmarks I've seen.
Click to expand...

Link?

 
While this last statement was a bit trollish...

Originally posted by: erwos
Passing off Linux as a total replacement is probably ill-informed at best.
Click to expand...

what erwos says is basically correct: if you do not know how to use linux, there will be a learning curve. WHS will have some nice features, but I'd bet that those features are also available in linux. (I haven't read a complete feature list so I might be wrong.) For instance, Unison is a very good backup / file synch tool for Windows clients.

My main point from an earlier post is that if you enjoy "playing" with your computer, then you will probably enjoy the challenge of linux. If you don't enjoy playing with your computer, buy a dell :evil:
 
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