Advice on which ADSL Modem/Router/Firewall or combination hardware to get

GregsterD

Junior Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Hello, my town has just had the good opportunity to be getting ADSL. So finally, I'll be upgrading from dial-up!

I'd like to find out since I'll be setting up a LAN with 2 other PCs and a MAC, which model/router/firewall hardware I should get.

I was looking at the NetGear DG814 which is a ADSL modem and router in one...... but I'd have to get a separate firewall hardware. I also read that the LinkSys BEFSX41ds was/is one of the best router and firewall hardware in the market, but then I'd have to get a separate ADSL modem.

Which hardware combination would you advice to get? Is there any recommended hardware out there which has all 3 modem/router/firewall functions in one? I would have any clues to for which ASDL modems to get in any case. I have no knowledge in Wireless modems, and I'm not sure if wireless modems would work in a 2-storey house, hence I mentioned only wired hardwares.

Thanks! Very much appreciate any help!
 

metapy

Senior member
Jul 9, 2001
230
0
0
Save yourself the trouble and hastle and get the ADSL equipment you ISP supports. Otherwise you will be left with an expensive router/firewall. Use what you ISP recommends have them configure the equipment for you if neccessary and then hang your favorite router/firewall of the DSL equipment.

I work for and ISP and the ONLY new equipment we support is the equipment proved by the telco (Qwest) most if not all ISPs in my region have only certain equipment that works with the system or that they can assist you in setting up. The equipment Qwest provides is an ActionTec DSL router/DSL combo, but if you purchase from anywhere other than Qwest we do not support it as Qwest has a specific firmware revision even.
 

GregsterD

Junior Member
Jul 29, 2001
16
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0
Ah..... I didn't realise that ISPs can be strict about which modem/routers to use. I had the impression that they work pretty much like any generic/branded 56K modem.

The reason why I'm looking for my own modem/router is becoz' the ISP I'm signing up with only provides a single IP address for the account, and they provide a USB ADSL modem. That would be a problem as 3 of my other housemates would like to hook up to the ADSL line too.

If I knew what kind of modem and configuration it will be set up under, will it be possible to find out which compatible modem/router to purchase?

Also, I've not heard of Zoom ADSL modems? Are they very popular? In my case, would it be a safer bet to buy a well-known modem.router instead eg. LinkSys, NetGear, D-Link, etc.?
 

JackMDS

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 25, 1999
29,540
419
126
Do not get USB.

Get an External Ethernet from the source above, and an independent Router.

Most of the combos "Broadband Router in one" have a lame Router.

Getting these combos is usually expensive (because not too many are sold), and reduces significantly your flexibility for the future.

Unless you have a specific reason for an expensive Router.

You can find a Router that is good (or better) as the Router in a combo unit for $20 (After Rebate).
 

metapy

Senior member
Jul 9, 2001
230
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0
I would seriously call the ISP in question, NO DSL equipment is not like modem equipment where one size fits all. There are different DSL equipment for different DSL lines and tehcnologies. Even if you do get DSL equipment that will technically work with the ISP in question there is a chance that would not offer any technical support setting up the equipment as it would be unsupported. If they only offer a USB DSL modem I would ask if they would offer any different equipment if you added static IP addresses to the account, if you have static IP addresses you would have to network your PCs and that is not very easy or elegant over a USB connection.

Seriously call the ISP and ASK if they support any other DSL equipment ot than what they provide from the comments made here it does not seeem if you would be comfortable setting up a DSL router yourself. For example do you know if their service is PPPoA, PPPoE, Bridged etc. are your DSL lines CAP or DMT, what is the VCI/VPI used. etc.
 

cmetz

Platinum Member
Nov 13, 2001
2,296
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0
You need to find out what signalling protocols your provider is going to use.

At the signalling layer, there are three common ADSL technologies: CAP, DMT, and G.Lite (a reduced-speed subset of DMT?). A modem built for CAP will not work with DMT or G.Lite, a modem built for DMT will not work with CAP and might or might not work with G. Lite, a modem built for G.Lite will not work with CAP and might or might not work with G.Lite.

Above that, you can have either frame-relay, ATM, or a straight point-to-point link (uncommon).

Above that, you can have a virtual point-to-point link (e.g., PPPoA), Ethernet bridging, Ethernet bridging with PPPoE, or PPPoEoA or funky other stuff.

The provider normally tries to give or sell you a modem of theirs that takes care of all this for you. Typically it'll give you a USB or Ethernet connection out. As JackMDS said, avoid USB like the plague. It is pretty much always the case that you'll be safest if you at least physically have access to one of the modems the provider pushes, because when you call support with a problem and have anything but the default equipment (even if it is supposedly "supported"), your life is going to be more painful. Remember that most ADSL offerrings are targeted towards masses of home users, and so support is heavily scripted and most of the scripts start with "Go to your start menu."

Surprisingly, in many cases I know of, the CPE pushed by the provider is some of the best out there for their environment. I say surprisingly because I'd personally expect heavy cost-optimization and politically based decisions, but hey, occasionally the telcos get things right. I live in Verizon-East-formerly-BA territory, and there we have DMT Ethernet bridged over ATM (PPPoE or static PVC over that, depending, but not handled inside the modem). Verizon's CPE is a Westell Wirespeed C90-abunchoflettersandnumbers modem, which is physically pretty large and built like a tank, but according to research I did, you're going to be hard pressed to find a modem that works better as far as signalling performance and such goes. This unit has basically no features and if you need any of that you need to buy a third-party unit, but if you're just looking to connect reliably, this is about it.

If you're still set on buying your own, another thing to investigate is to buy a Cisco 678 off EBay. This is a DMT / G.Lite modem with bridging and routing built in, and Qwest uses it as their CPE, so used ones can be picked up really cheap. It's also discontinued and doesn't run Real IOS, but for the $20ish you should be able to pick one up for it's a great deal. I fully expect this modem to peform well from all I've heard.

Incidentally, most of the DMT modems use basically the same chipset from Alcatel, and thus have the exact same interface to the line. So basically at that level, only the construction and analog design quality of the device really factor into the ADSL signalling performance - that is, they're basically all the same on the line side, the differences are mostly in the built-in features and how it connects to your PC.
 

metapy

Senior member
Jul 9, 2001
230
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0
Well said cmetz, quite a mouthful! I have a Cisco 678 running DMT and love it, always up (had 80+ days uptime, but accidentally unplugged the power) I doubt that you will be able to find a functional Cisco 678 on ebay for $20 these babies seem to hold their value, there are a few auctions in the that range, but most are higher. Also we still support the Ciscos and ANY Cisco 678 will work regardless of where it was purchased.

For a firewall I ended up with a Webramp which I flashed to a Sonicwall firewall and love it. It handles NAT and DHCP for me as well as manages my static IPs (One-to-one NAT routing), behind that I have a Netgear switch which allows my PCs to communicate at 100mb rather than 10mb that the Sonicwall supports. Works great for me I have had almost no trouble with this setup and although not as compact as an all-in-one solution I feel the best tool for the job in my price range.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: metapy
Save yourself the trouble and hastle and get the ADSL equipment you ISP supports. Otherwise you will be left with an expensive router/firewall. Use what you ISP recommends have them configure the equipment for you if neccessary and then hang your favorite router/firewall of the DSL equipment.

I work for and ISP and the ONLY new equipment we support is the equipment proved by the telco (Qwest) most if not all ISPs in my region have only certain equipment that works with the system or that they can assist you in setting up. The equipment Qwest provides is an ActionTec DSL router/DSL combo, but if you purchase from anywhere other than Qwest we do not support it as Qwest has a specific firmware revision even.


Originally posted by: GregsterD
Ah..... I didn't realise that ISPs can be strict about which modem/routers to use. I had the impression that they work pretty much like any generic/branded 56K modem.

The reason why I'm looking for my own modem/router is becoz' the ISP I'm signing up with only provides a single IP address for the account, and they provide a USB ADSL modem. That would be a problem as 3 of my other housemates would like to hook up to the ADSL line too.

If I knew what kind of modem and configuration it will be set up under, will it be possible to find out which compatible modem/router to purchase?

Also, I've not heard of Zoom ADSL modems? Are they very popular? In my case, would it be a safer bet to buy a well-known modem.router instead eg. LinkSys, NetGear, D-Link, etc.?

What a bunch of balony spewed out by the Telco employee. If these guys did the same thing for Dial Up Modems where would we be?
Do they say the same thing for a dial Up Modem or a Telephone? There is nothing that makes a DSL Modem any different. DSL Modems are made to a DSL Standard just like a Telephone and Dial Up Modem.

The Telcos are getting away with taking the DSL part of the Broadband equation hostage in the United States. DSL is like Telephones were all over again before divestiture in 1984 where AT&T controlled the entire Phone Service Market and you had to rent your Telephone from the phone Company.

You haven't heard of a Zoom Modem because they have been shut out of the United States Market by the closed Market Tactics of the Phone Companies. It is also why Linksys, D-Link etc have not delved into the DSL Modem Market because the Phone Companies are in bed with "Their Own" selected choice partners and close out others like that guy above said. Zoom makes the Hayes brand of DSL Modems which by the way is the number one brand in the "Open" DSL Market in Europe. Interesting a United States Telecommunications Company can't sell DSL Modems in the United States itself. What's wrong with that picture? That is the reason I have taken the charge in selling the DSL Modems directly to the public via a website. I have on the website that as soon as the DSL Market is truly opened up and this hostage situation by the Telcos ends then my job is done and jobs are saved.

So don't listen to the phone employee garbage and get a Modem that suits your needs, send the Telcos a message that the United States will not be held hostage by greedy Corportate Thugs. I don't care what DSL Modem you get but don't get the one that ONLY that Phone Company would support, what a bunch of bull, get any one of the others that have both Ethernet and USB live at the same time and it will work fine on your ISP's DSL ATM Network as soon as you enter the VPI and VCI numbers, that is the only information specific to the ISP that you need for the DSL Modem to work. For example I entered VPI=8 and VCI=35 for my Zoom X4 to work on the BellSouth DSL Network. VPI is Virtual Path Identifier for the ATM DSL Internet Backbone and VCI is the Virtual Circuit Identifier for the ATM Cell or Network that your ISP is using in your area. That is how the same DSL Box that say BellSouth and Earthlink shares can identify which customer goes down which circuit. That info along with your log in address combined is like the equivalent of your phone number for the DSL.

Always Best Regards

David McOwen





 

metapy

Senior member
Jul 9, 2001
230
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0
Just to clarify I DO NOT work for the telco, but rather a local ISP. The comments I have made are so that GregsterD can actually use his DSL service there is a chance that something that he buys is not compatible with his local DSL service also if it is compatible that the ISP will not offer service in configuring the DSL equipment. If that is the case then he may have a hard if not impossible time configuring the DSL equipment. If someone were to call our tech support line with unsupported DSL equipment we would tell them that the DSL line is DMT, PPPoA and the VCI/VPI is 0/32 respectively, if the customer could not get his DSL equipment to work from there there would be nothing further we could do. I do not think I will be posting to this thread any longer.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: metapy
Just to clarify I DO NOT work for the telco, but rather a local ISP. The comments I have made are so that GregsterD can actually use his DSL service there is a chance that something that he buys is not compatible with his local DSL service also if it is compatible that the ISP will not offer service in configuring the DSL equipment. If that is the case then he may have a hard if not impossible time configuring the DSL equipment. If someone were to call our tech support line with unsupported DSL equipment we would tell them that the DSL line is DMT, PPPoA and the VCI/VPI is 0/32 respectively, if the customer could not get his DSL equipment to work from there there would be nothing further we could do. I do not think I will be posting to this thread any longer.

There was one word and one action that put you in the same Gestapo class as the ones contributing to the Closed Market condition on the U.S. now, the word ONLY and bolded to boot and "the customer could not get his DSL equipment to work we would tell them there is nothing further we could do".

Your lines above was perfect about the DMT, PPPoA (normally equipment set to work PPPoA also works PPPoE, not the case there at your ISP?) and the VCI/PVI numbers. Is that really the kind of attiude to have towards paying customers that keeps the lights on and makes the Management rich? You can go a step further to meet with the Customer that would like a choice in features of equipment, since there are so many people with DSL now a person local to him could try the "Golden" Brand Modem supported and only one known to the Tech Support folks in the event a "Non Supported" Modem doesn't come up on the line. All is not lost. Just meet half way, is that too much too ask of a free society and Open Market?

Consumer Choice and Competition in Manufacturing and Marketing won here. I sincerely hope you continue to post and contribute your knowledge being in the DSL Industry. With all of our help maybe there is hope that the U.S. can stop the slide of no longer being tops in Technology especially in Broadband and DSL deployment in this Country. That is truly why you saw the passion that I have here in this thread. I hope the Management at your ISP sees the error of it's ways sometime soon and helps set it right. All it takes is starting at one ISP and a Domino effect can start in reverse to stop what the Telcos have started, we don't rent Telephones anymore do we?
A phone is a phone, a Dial Up Modem is a Dial Up Modem and a DSL Modem is a DSL Modem.

Dave








 

GregsterD

Junior Member
Jul 29, 2001
16
0
0
Originally posted by: cmetz
You need to find out what signalling protocols your provider is going to use.

At the signalling layer, there are three common ADSL technologies: CAP, DMT, and G.Lite (a reduced-speed subset of DMT?). A modem built for CAP will not work with DMT or G.Lite, a modem built for DMT will not work with CAP and might or might not work with G. Lite, a modem built for G.Lite will not work with CAP and might or might not work with G.Lite.

Above that, you can have either frame-relay, ATM, or a straight point-to-point link (uncommon).

Above that, you can have a virtual point-to-point link (e.g., PPPoA), Ethernet bridging, Ethernet bridging with PPPoE, or PPPoEoA or funky other stuff.

The provider normally tries to give or sell you a modem of theirs that takes care of all this for you. Typically it'll give you a USB or Ethernet connection out. As JackMDS said, avoid USB like the plague. It is pretty much always the case that you'll be safest if you at least physically have access to one of the modems the provider pushes, because when you call support with a problem and have anything but the default equipment (even if it is supposedly "supported"), your life is going to be more painful. Remember that most ADSL offerrings are targeted towards masses of home users, and so support is heavily scripted and most of the scripts start with "Go to your start menu."

Surprisingly, in many cases I know of, the CPE pushed by the provider is some of the best out there for their environment. I say surprisingly because I'd personally expect heavy cost-optimization and politically based decisions, but hey, occasionally the telcos get things right. I live in Verizon-East-formerly-BA territory, and there we have DMT Ethernet bridged over ATM (PPPoE or static PVC over that, depending, but not handled inside the modem). Verizon's CPE is a Westell Wirespeed C90-abunchoflettersandnumbers modem, which is physically pretty large and built like a tank, but according to research I did, you're going to be hard pressed to find a modem that works better as far as signalling performance and such goes. This unit has basically no features and if you need any of that you need to buy a third-party unit, but if you're just looking to connect reliably, this is about it.

If you're still set on buying your own, another thing to investigate is to buy a Cisco 678 off EBay. This is a DMT / G.Lite modem with bridging and routing built in, and Qwest uses it as their CPE, so used ones can be picked up really cheap. It's also discontinued and doesn't run Real IOS, but for the $20ish you should be able to pick one up for it's a great deal. I fully expect this modem to peform well from all I've heard.

Incidentally, most of the DMT modems use basically the same chipset from Alcatel, and thus have the exact same interface to the line. So basically at that level, only the construction and analog design quality of the device really factor into the ADSL signalling performance - that is, they're basically all the same on the line side, the differences are mostly in the built-in features and how it connects to your PC.


Oh............ so.......... it seems like setting up a ADSL modem/router isn't as easy as I thought it was going to be.

So many protocols and choices to find out and follow; guess I have to do alot more research now. Is there a good 'ADSL Networking 101' website out there for newbies like me?

It's your recommendation to get all components separately ie. modem, router, firewall? I was under the impression that doing that would increase the cost.

Thanks for all your replies! You guys probably saved me loads of time and money!

 

metapy

Senior member
Jul 9, 2001
230
0
0
There was one word and one action that put you in the same Gestapo class as the ones contributing to the Closed Market condition on the U.S. now, the word ONLY and bolded to boot and "the customer could not get his DSL equipment to work we would tell them there is nothing further we could do".

Please do not attack me in this forum, not only does it make you look bad: it does nothing for the orginal poster, adds nothing of value to this discussion forum, it also offends me.

You are the sole reason I am discontinuing posting on this thread the last comment only sealed the deal. If you wish to berate other forum members please PM them as to not fill the thread with the dross that you spew.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: metapy
There was one word and one action that put you in the same Gestapo class as the ones contributing to the Closed Market condition on the U.S. now, the word ONLY and bolded to boot and "the customer could not get his DSL equipment to work we would tell them there is nothing further we could do".

Please do not attack me in this forum, not only does it make you look bad: it does nothing for the orginal poster, adds nothing of value to this discussion forum, it also offends me.

You are the sole reason I am discontinuing posting on this thread the last comment only sealed the deal. If you wish to berate other forum members please PM them as to not fill the thread with the dross that you spew.

That was far from an attack and certainly not personal. I said and did nothing to make me look bad or berate anyone personally including you.

Freedom offends you? Nothing of value? The one sided biased information that Telco's and apparently certain ISP's (I know for a fact not all ISP's adopt this strong arm Anti-Consumer tactics) is what has no Value. Getting all of the information and that there is a Freedom of Choice for the original Poster is "Priceless".

Sealed the Deal? If you leave and do not post anymore it is your choice and certainly nothing to do with me. Why would I PM someone, I have nothing to hide. Interesting choice of words (Dross = Scum). I didn't spew anything and it certainly wasn't dross.

Defending the freedom of choice that should exist in America is something everyone should do and is just as important as what is taking place overseas.

Freedom begins at home.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Oh............ so.......... it seems like setting up a ADSL modem/router isn't as easy as I thought it was going to be.

So many protocols and choices to find out and follow; guess I have to do alot more research now. Is there a good 'ADSL Networking 101' website out there for newbies like me?

It's your recommendation to get all components separately ie. modem, router, firewall? I was under the impression that doing that would increase the cost.

Thanks for all your replies! You guys probably saved me loads of time and money!

It's not as hard as it can be made out to be. You don't get involved with how the old Telephone system gets a phone conversation from phone A to phone B and all the switching and signalling that takes place in between. There was host of complexities involved with the old dial Up Modems too such as initialization strings etc but most software took care of all that for everyone too.

I used to have a DSL Modem, then an SMC Barricade Router and then to a D-Link switch but I gave away the Router when I got the DSL Modem that has a Router built in. However I could've left the Barricade in-line as well if I wanted to or really needed it but don't.

Engineering is a continuing evolving process, if it wasn't we wouldn't have innovation and progress which further stresses my point of why it is so important to have Freedom of Competition and Open Markets especially with Hardware. If Manufacturers were always hand picked such as in the DSL Industry now, they would continue to sit back and not continue to improve the Products and service. That is exactly what is happening, who loses? Everyone in the U.S. while Europeans and others get to enjoy the latest features and progress Technology has to offer. Is that what citizens of the U.S. want? To be second fiddle? Not in my lifetime if I can help it.

For example. Great advice has been given in here. It was commented to "Avoid USB like the Plague". That used to be extremely true however USB has evolved. USB 2.0 is now faster than Firewire. USB has been a primary connection point for MacIntosh and now Windows as Digital Cameras and everything Digital.

Back to DSL and USB. It used to be that the Computer had to do all the work to load drivers and establish a link via USB, not anymore. Just like Ethernet Routers where the processor on the Router does all the connection work so the Computer does not have to is what is now possible with USB.

This is the kind of progress and innovation we all deserve.

If Freedom of Choice is taken away then we all stand to lose as there would be no incentive for Manufacturers or the Service Providers that are bed with them to strive to do better and they would just simply collect all the money they can from the unwhitting Consumer without ever trying to offer better features and services. Is that the kind of United States you want to live in? Not me if I can help it and will die trying to prevent that.

Here is a link showing how it is possible to have USB connectivity without having the Computer to do the work.

DSL USB for MacIntosh and Windows not requring the Computer to do the Work
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,681
5,803
146
Verizon's CPE is a Westell Wirespeed C90-abunchoflettersandnumbers modem, which is physically pretty large and built like a tank, but according to research I did, you're going to be hard pressed to find a modem that works better as far as signalling performance and such
I have personal experience to back that up also.

Regarding your choices: Buy whatever the telco will support for a modem, but do not buy a combo unit.
If your all in one modem/router craps on you, you are done for the day and waiting for a replacement.
If you go for individual pieces, and your inexpensive router fails, you can plug one computer into the modem and keep on surfing.
I have seen more routers fail than modems, so hooking them together in one inseperable unit is a bad idea, reliability-wise, in my opinion.