Advice building a new PC

[VarzaEl]

I decided last December to proceed and purchase a new PC and ,since it has been a loong time from my last build(Pentium 3 era),I statrted educating myself and trying to get in touch with the way the pc market works.
I've ended up with many dilemmas regarding this new build mainly because I've accumulated much info in a very short amount of time!The choices are endless and it's drivingme insane! Since this will be the first time I actually "build" a PC(decide its components) as an adult(my aforementioned PIII rig was a gift as a lad at the time I wouldn't like to screw up on something minor when a simple question could have saved the day ,so I would like your input on deciding my new build.

Some info on my case:

-My budget will be up to 1000euro.I'll be paying in "segments"(don't know the word for it)so if we could end up at a lower price while still meeting my needs I'd be OK.Going as far as 1100 would be OK too but not preferable

-I'll be using my old speakers,mouse,keyboard and LG 17'' FLATRON L1715S monitor and DVDR/RW

-About gaming:It will have intensive gaming use ,but I'm not such a hardcore gamer.I don't look into playing 1960x resolutions,seeing sweat effects and the like ,I just want my new build to play at a logical level games and -most important of all -PLAY them at all for a substantial amount of time in the future.

-About overclocking:I'll be overclocking ,not as a regular hobby, but in order to make the most out of my PC parts and maximize their efficiency to skip upgrades

-About other uses:I use the internet a lot and many times I multi-task,nut I don't use CADs,I don't work as a video editor etc.It will be a home PC regarding such things,not for professional use etc

-About upgrading :I tend to be behind the progresses in technology ,so I won't rush to upgrade in order to play in FULL resolution this X new gane. In fact I will not rush even if I can't play it at all ,but wait for some time so that the upgrade s=moist suitable for me will drop in cost.

-And I'm not an AMD/INTEL fanboy.Fact is I wasn't aware of such a dispute until some weeks ago,so I will go for the best choice in accordance to my as written above needs.

What I'm more concerned about is the MoBo-CPU-GPU combination(s),the others are easy after that I think.

Thank you VERY MUCH for your help in advance !

 

[MegaVovaN]

Do you see yourself upgrading your monitor to 20", 22" or 24" in future?

If yes, see if you can fit this in your budget (don't know what prices are where you live):
PSU: Corsair VX450w is a good one and inexpensive to boot. Yes, 450w is plenty.
GPU: nVidia 8800GT 512mb OR AMD (ATI) 3870 512mb
CPU: e6750 OR Q6600 OR one of the new 45nm chips coming out in USA Jan 20th (E8xxx series I think)
RAM: 4 gb of any DDR2. If budget is tight, go for 2 gb. Preferably 2 sticks of 2gb each, not 4x 1gb sticks.
MoBo: something with Intel's P35 chipset in ~$90-$130 range (US Prices). For example:
--Abit IP35-E
--MSI P35 Neo2-FR
--GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L
--GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3R
--ASUS P5K-E


+ some decent case without power supply (you will be installing your own)
Tell us prices on parts I listed.

 

[VarzaEl]

Thanks for your time Meganovan!

I may be upgrading in 1-1,5 year from now to as much as a 19-20'' monitor,I don't feel comfortable sitting in front of a larger monitor(it's like star trek bridge from there

-About CPU: I was thinking going for a good dual core,then upgrading to penryn when their price has fallen as -from what I hear around-there is no great need yet for 4 cores and I could use the 70euro for something else(like a good case).What do you think of that path?

-About mobo and GPU: I was also thinking of investing in a dual-GPU mobo,to have the future option of an "economic"upgrade(lut a second GPU when its price has fallen).SLI mobos aren't that stable overclocking from what I hear,so Xfire is the other option which means X38 chipset ,because P35 has x16 and x4 PCI slots.
Do you think relying on dual gpu upgrades is a solid strategy?What's your take on Crossfire/SLI as a means of future upgrading?
Also,why P35 and not a X38 chipset?

 

[MegaVovaN]

You can get by with dual core for now, no need for Quad.

SLI/Crossfire (dual GPU) is a bad idea. When you would like more performance, buy a more powerful single card and sell your old one. This way you would pay about as much as you would pay for a second "old" card but get better performance.
As a rule of thumb, one card of newer generation is faster than 2 cards of older generation. (one 8800GT is much much faster than dual 7800GTs for example)

SLI is for people who want MAX performance TODAY. It is for people that buy TOP end video cards (I'm talking $350+ each) and match them together.

Do not buy X38 chipset, it is expensive. For example a solid X38 chipset board would cost, say, $220.
A solid P35 board costs $110.

When you want upgrade, a chipset BETTER than X38 will be available for ~$100. Plus you can get some money back by selling your P35 board in future.


Bottom line - go with:
P35
Single Video card
Dual Core


edit: some stats - to give you an idea how bad SLI/Crossfire is, according to Uber System Poll 3.0 (voted by forum members here), 94% of people voted (94% = 126 people) run SINGLE card. They DO NOT run multiple video cards. SLI is just a marketing gimmick "dual cards, why, that sounds cool, I'll pick that up!!". And people who buy two expensive cards to SLI are extremely RARE since nearly everyone is satisfied with single card.

 

[NukaCola]

MegaVovaN, just because most people don't do SLI doesn't mean it's "bad." Is there technical info that shows that SLI isn't such a good idea?

 

[MegaVovaN]

Originally posted by: NukaCola
MegaVovaN, just because most people don't do SLI doesn't mean it's "bad." Is there technical info that shows that SLI isn't such a good idea?

What kind of info you want? That SLI does not give you 100% performance scaling? (i.e. one card = 50 fps, 2 cards = 100 fps, 3 cards = 150 fps, 4 cards = 200 fps)

Maybe you want me to dig up benchies that show single new generation card owning two previous gen cards in SLI?

There is nothing wrong with SLI "mechanically". SLI is just a poor (weak) bang for your buck.

 

[VarzaEl]

So you mean SLI/XFire isn't to be used as an opportunity for "economic" upgrades ,but for more raw power graphically by consumers that would spend much(350$+) on GPUs anyway,right?

Does the Core2Duo 6750 overclock well?

BTW,the parts you listed are well within my budget,under 1000euros in fact!

Considering that I ca afford a better case and a nice set of speakers ,stuff that don't get replaced as often as other PC parts.
Should I go for a case 130E or more? I had in mind something along the lines of Thermaltake's Armor VA8000
http://www.plaisio.gr/product....9977695&product=752541

 

[BlueAcolyte]

The C2D 6750 has a high default FSB, but you are pretty much guaranteed to reach mid 3GHz with it. If you want to upgrade to a Penryn, I suggest the E4XXX or E2XXX line, which have less cache and a lower default FSB and so more headroom.

On that site, the NZXT Zero is only 5 euroes more... And much better cooling ability than the Armor.

Hell, the CM STACKER is only 10 euroes more than the Armor...

 

[MegaVovaN]

Originally posted by: VarzaEl
So you mean SLI/XFire isn't to be used as an opportunity for "economic" upgrades ,but for more raw power graphically by consumers that would spend much(350$+) on GPUs anyway,right?

Right. It is used by people that want max power available TODAY by joining two very fast cards. And they don't mind high price.

As for case, I don't know about that, might want to cruise in Cases and Cooling forum. Case is largely a personal preference because at this high price level any case provides good cooling.

e6750 does O/C well. stock is 2.66 ghz and I have my e6750 at 3.2 ghz just by increasing FSB to 400. People with good cooling have taken it further, like 3.4 ghz. With water cooling and lucky chip it may go as high as 3.7 ghz I think....

edit: these guys here got it to 3.8 ghz :Q

http://techgage.com/print/inte...re_2_duo_e6750_preview

 

[VarzaEl]

3.8,eh? Ni-ce!

Something else,is there a large difference going from E6750 to 6550 or E4550?

6550 has less speed and 4550 lacks in speed and FSB,is it a big difference in action?

I searched for your recommended P35 mobos and at Asus' I found P5K-Premium-wifi-ap,it's as good as P5K if not more,right?Is it worth the extra money?

edit: Abit IP-35Pro is in stock now here in Greece man,should I go for that instead of all the others?It's selling like crazy.

 

[Blain]

In "gaming" L2 cache size makes a little difference.
How much the extra FPS are worth all depends on you and your CPU budget. :laugh:

Overclocking to 3.8GHz is more than just buying the right CPU version. It's also about having great cooling ($$$), and a MB that will run stable at high FSBs.

"Granted, the core temperatures were 65°C during testing...
For those who don't wish to raise your CPU voltage, you have nothing to worry about as impressive overclocks are still possible.

When overclocking a CPU without raising the Vcore, we do raise the voltages for the North and Southbridges. In order to retain FSB stability at higher frequencies, voltage boosts are a must."

Bottom Line: Higher voltages = higher temperatures = must have good cooling & air flow

 

[batuchka]

One for the AMD camp

Mobo - DFI Lanparty 790FX = $260
CPU : AMD 6400 Black = $160
ARCTIC COOLING Freezer 64 Pro CPU Cooler = $20
PSU: Earthwatts 500W = $90
Casing : Thermaltake Armor = $150
Graphics Card : HD 3870 = $250
WD Caviar 250GB/16mb cache HDD = $70
2 X 2gb ddr2 800 G Skill RAM = $100
Total = USD 1090 or 737 Euros
Maybe you could choose to go crossfire or swap for a phenom in the future for your next upgrade cycle. Or what this guy did on this base system:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/f...howthread.php?t=169709

 

[VarzaEl]

? have no qualms over buying AMD,I would really like to support the underdog in order to break the upcoming monopoly,but 260$ is too much for a mobo I feel and everyone has recommended Intel for this time ,in regards to price/action..

If there was a combination of mobo/CPU that would be as good for operation and low for the money as eg Abit IP35PRO+C2DuoE6750 I'd rush to get it..

 

[batuchka]

Ah well this one is awesome performance for the price u pay IMO & can hit 3.2Ghz often on stock voltage so cheaper cooling expenditure + still leave room for upgrades :

Mobo
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813130138

CPU
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16819103194

 

[VarzaEl]

Good one there..do you have anything in 790FX chipset?
But you know something,AMD proicessors from what I see have smaller L2 cache..
The 170euro Intel Dual is as fast as a 110euro AMD dual but both the 170 and 110 euro AMDs have 2 MB L2 cache compared to 4MB of Intel's Duos..

 

[Roguestar]

As Blain said, the cache size won't make much difference. Personally, I'd go for an Intel CPU right now. Something cheap, like the E4500 and just overclock it to 2.8GHz.

 

[batuchka]

Well for it's bigger brother 790fx board then this is it:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813130136

Regardless of what route you decide upon i had stumbled upon what i feel is an awesome casing + psu deal @ Newegg!

CM 830 @ $99!
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16811119103

Earthwatts 500W @ $60!!
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817371007

 

[MegaVovaN]

batuchka, OP is in Greece and won't be ordering from 'Egg

 

[VarzaEl]

I picked up IP35Pro today morning and just on time,they had a single unit left !!

Tomorrw I'm going for the rest of the order which is going to be something like this


CPU:E4500
mobo: aBIT iP35 pRO
GPU: 8800GT/GTS/HD3870(depends on the prices I'll encounter)
RAM: 4 GB of Gskill or Corsair ( 2x2 for sure)
Case:either TT Armor V8000 or Gigabyte's Aurora 3d(I'm gonna have a council with my brothers on that..
PSU: ?? What do you advise guys?Meganovan you said earlier a 450W one,is it going to be sufficient for any future o/c-ing attempts?
Other: Maybe add a sound card/speakers or ethernet card ,depending on the overall price of the build

 

[VarzaEl]

And one more thing guys,what do you think about these alternative paths about processors:

A)go for a E2xxx now and upgrade to quad6xxx or penryn later,when need is greater and price lower

B)go for a E4500 now and upgrade to quad6xxx or penryn later,when need is greater and price lower

C)go for a E6750 now and upgrade to quad6xxx or penryn later,when need is greater and price lower

D)go for Q6600 now and stick with it until next gen comes around ,either Intel's or AMD's

considering the uses the PC is going to have that I mentioned..
Is it a big performance fall from E6750 to E4500?
From E6750 to E2160 it should be a big fall but...I just love how 65euro for such a processor sounds

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: VarzaEl
? have no qualms over buying AMD,I would really like to support the underdog in order to break the upcoming monopoly,but 260$ is too much for a mobo I feel and everyone has recommended Intel for this time ,in regards to price/action..

If there was a combination of mobo/CPU that would be as good for operation and low for the money as eg Abit IP35PRO+C2DuoE6750 I'd rush to get it..

uhhh... so you have nothing against buying a processor that gets raped by the competition's cheapest with slight overclocking?

Meaning a E2160 OC'd moderately to 3.2ghz would rape almost every AMD chip out there.

You have no quams with that?


AMD is just not a smart choice at this moment.


EDIT: didnt see the fact you bought your board.

Okey, to best answre your question how long you intend to keep this machine? Or how soon are you looking to upgrade.

 

[MegaVovaN]

450w should be enough with o/c.

My system draws about 250w on peak...out of 450w!!

Use this calculator: http://www.extreme.outervision.../psucalculatorlite.jsp

For CPU path, I like B and C.

B)go for a E4500 now and upgrade to quad6xxx or penryn later,when need is greater and price lower

C)go for a E6750 now and upgrade to quad6xxx or penryn later,when need is greater and price lower

IF you go to 4500 it has decent cache and you can OC it to 3.0 ghz easily
If you go E6750 you won't need another processor for a while...even on stock.

Q6600 is just a poor choice. You will have 2 cores idle (doing nothing) most of the time.

As for E2xxx, think about it this way: your system has to be balanced. You put in mid/high end video card, a solid mid level PSU, a good mid range motherboard, solid RAM and high end case. It just does not make sense to put low end, very cheap CPU there.

edit: Why you want to add ethernet card? Your mobo has Ethernet port, maybe even TWO! (I'm lazy to look up how many it has)

 

[VarzaEl]

About the ether-card I may be confusing things a bit,I mean a card that enables to connect your modem via ethernet and not usb.I was recommended to go for one by a friend but you may be right,today's mobo's may have such equipment on board ,he had a PIII@800 system like me after all so he might have been a bit left behind on such things

I was leaning B and C myself , seeing at the toolbar 2% CPU usage all the time because of the 4 cores' unusability will drive me insane!

aigomorla ,I'm planning to upgrade as soon as two facts come together: I'm in need ofthe quad-core technology because of developers' applications make great use of them + they fall in price some more/or justify enough thier price. So it depends on the rise of 4 core technology usage..

 

[VarzaEl]

I ended up with a Gigabyte P35-DS3P ,the IP35Pro was reserved by another customer!

So ,I order:
Gigabyte P35-DS3P
Intel C2D E4500(going quad later
Armor+ 6000
Old hard disk at the moment
Old DVD -R/recorders
Thermaltake 550W PSU
Gigabyte Geforce 8800GT 512MB

And about RAM:
I had in mind ordering a 2GB kit of Corsair ,but it was @ 800mhz with 5-5-5-something timings..

What should I look out for there?I was thinking since I'm not going DDR3 I should invest for the best possible DDR2 to make up for it ,as future-proofing,so should I ditch those Corsair and go for something better?

 

[MegaVovaN]

Just get any DDR2-800 rated to run at 1.8V. No need to "invest" in expensive ddr2.

Also, do NOT buy DDR3.