Addressing US competitiveness

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: TheoPetro
http://fora.tv/2009/01/30/Advi...etitiveness#chapter_05

Interesting video on the core problems with the US economy. What would you say are the top 3-5 major issues with the US economy? Any ideas on how to solve them?

I will give mine in a bit.

1. Debt
2. Debt
3. Debt
4. Debt
5. Debt

We're a debt based economy. Saving is discouraged. Even the slightest downturn causes monstrous ripples because there's no room for error when every individual, city, state and the feds are living paycheck to paycheck, and just barely able to pay off their debts.
 

TheoPetro

Banned
Nov 30, 2004
3,499
1
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: TheoPetro
http://fora.tv/2009/01/30/Advi...etitiveness#chapter_05

Interesting video on the core problems with the US economy. What would you say are the top 3-5 major issues with the US economy? Any ideas on how to solve them?

I will give mine in a bit.

1. Debt
2. Debt
3. Debt
4. Debt
5. Debt

We're a debt based economy. Saving is discouraged. Even the slightest downturn causes monstrous ripples because there's no room for error when every individual, city, state and the feds are living paycheck to paycheck, and just barely able to pay off their debts.

Just for clarification, do you believe that debt in general is the problem or that the misuse of debt is the problem?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
It's the misuse of debt, just like food is necessary, so is debt to an optimal economy, but too much food and you have a fat person, too much debt and you have a person straining to cover their responsibilities. Too much food and too much debt and you have America.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
0
Originally posted by: Skoorb
It's the misuse of debt, just like food is necessary, so is debt to an optimal economy, but too much food and you have a fat person, too much debt and you have a person straining to cover their responsibilities. Too much food and too much debt and you have America.

brilliant.. link to subscribe to your newsletter?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,488
6,695
126
Off the top of my head:

Improper regulation of the banking industry, investing in financial instruments rather than businesses with growth potential.

Too high of a corporate tax rate.

Not providing sufficient tax incentives for business investment in research and development and growth enhancing equipment.

Don't know the fancy economic terms for all of this.

Lack of investment in lifelong education and job retraining.



 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: Farang
Originally posted by: Skoorb
It's the misuse of debt, just like food is necessary, so is debt to an optimal economy, but too much food and you have a fat person, too much debt and you have a person straining to cover their responsibilities. Too much food and too much debt and you have America.

brilliant.. link to subscribe to your newsletter?
It's all free, baby, keep checking back on P&N, my endless, damn near legendary nuggets of pure truth and wisdom are always forthcoming!

 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
It's hard to compete against $1/hour and few environmental regulations, few OSHA-type regulations, few labor regulations, and lower corporate taxes, especially when the competition has almost the exact same capital that you do.
 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
3,875
0
76
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
It's hard to compete against $1/hour and few environmental regulations, few OSHA-type regulations, few labor regulations, and lower corporate taxes, especially when the competition has almost the exact same capital that you do.

Yup and now when you lay everyone off, who is going to buy your merchandise? The car companies are dropping people like flies and now they aren't selling shit either. Those "overpaid union bums" bought cars. Good luck selling a 30k SUV to the guy making $12 hr.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
It's hard to compete against $1/hour and few environmental regulations, few OSHA-type regulations, few labor regulations, and lower corporate taxes, especially when the competition has almost the exact same capital that you do.

True, what SHOULD be done is to employ import restrictions from factories where slave wages are paid to the workers and/or children employed. This is already underway in the EU.

It's a form of protectionism though and there will probably be consequences by restricting the global market.
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
71
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
It's hard to compete against $1/hour and few environmental regulations, few OSHA-type regulations, few labor regulations, and lower corporate taxes, especially when the competition has almost the exact same capital that you do.

True, what SHOULD be done is to employ import restrictions from factories where slave wages are paid to the workers and/or children employed. This is already underway in the EU.

It's a form of protectionism though and there will probably be consequences by restricting the global market.

May I also add to that John,
Environmental standards and Human rights (not political, standard of living). If 'your' country doesn't meet a set of standards in all 3 categories, we should block imports from and exports to those countries.
 

quest55720

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2004
1,339
0
0
Originally posted by: gingermeggs
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
It's hard to compete against $1/hour and few environmental regulations, few OSHA-type regulations, few labor regulations, and lower corporate taxes, especially when the competition has almost the exact same capital that you do.

True, what SHOULD be done is to employ import restrictions from factories where slave wages are paid to the workers and/or children employed. This is already underway in the EU.

It's a form of protectionism though and there will probably be consequences by restricting the global market.

May I also add to that John,
Environmental standards and Human rights (not political, standard of living). If 'your' country doesn't meet a set of standards in all 3 categories, we should block imports from and exports to those countries.


That would go over real well till the prices at walmart doubled and tripled or more.
 

Jiggz

Diamond Member
Mar 10, 2001
4,329
0
76
1. We need to go back to a manufacturing based instead of a consumer based economy.
2. Need to invest more in R&D to achieve technological superiority.
3. Pay our debts
4. Schools and more schools for education.
5. Minimize welfare programs so people go to work instead of pandering from the gov't.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
It's hard to compete against $1/hour and few environmental regulations, few OSHA-type regulations, few labor regulations, and lower corporate taxes, especially when the competition has almost the exact same capital that you do.

Yup and now when you lay everyone off, who is going to buy your merchandise? The car companies are dropping people like flies and now they aren't selling shit either. Those "overpaid union bums" bought cars. Good luck selling a 30k SUV to the guy making $12 hr.

Those overpaid could not bought enough cars to save the auto industry with the credit hangover we are dealing with now.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
For the record... we manufacture more today than at any time in our history (present slump not included)

The different is that we use a LOT less people to manufacture the same amount of dollar value was we did 30 years ago.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
We must streamline out tax code. Right now our tax code is a mess. We have high marginal rates, but we also have a maze of deductions and credits. Remove all deductions and credits and drop the rate. Drop it a flat 10-20% and more people will be coming to the US to do business.

Streamline regulations. THis does not mean drop regulations, it means streamline them and make the reasonable. Lets not stop investcause someone things a blue spotted mouse habitat might be endangered.

We have the infrastructure and the human capital to be very competitive int he world market. SUre china might pay someone a dollar day, but we have the complete package. We can compete with other countries via productivity.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: gingermeggs
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
It's hard to compete against $1/hour and few environmental regulations, few OSHA-type regulations, few labor regulations, and lower corporate taxes, especially when the competition has almost the exact same capital that you do.

True, what SHOULD be done is to employ import restrictions from factories where slave wages are paid to the workers and/or children employed. This is already underway in the EU.

It's a form of protectionism though and there will probably be consequences by restricting the global market.


May I also add to that John,
Environmental standards and Human rights (not political, standard of living). If 'your' country doesn't meet a set of standards in all 3 categories, we should block imports from and exports to those countries.

Well that would effectively stop all export to and from the EU

The US doesn't even come close to getting above a minimum wage that is regarded slave wages in the EU.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
1. Eliminate federal environmental laws (where the pollution does not greatly impact neighboring states or nations, IE not dumping radioactive waste into the Mississippi River) and leave it to the individual states to set them.
2. Eliminate federal minimum wage (give individual states total control over their minimum wage).
3. Cut spending (bureaucracy, social programs, military, etc. whatever it takes to reduce debt).
4. Revamp education (kick kids out that do not want to learn as a start).
5. Use prisoners for manual labor to offset the cost of their imprisonment.
6. End the war on drugs (for everything save crack, meth, heroine and other hardcore drugs) and release those in jail on charges related to the now legal drugs. Tax the living hell out of the now legal narcotics.
7. Flat tax (~15% or whatever it takes), no deductions or write offs.
8. Voluntary free permanent sterilization or contraception to anyone on government assistance.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
1. Eliminate federal environmental laws (where the pollution does not greatly impact neighboring states or nations, IE not dumping radioactive waste into the Mississippi River) and leave it to the individual states to set them.

...Setting off a state-by-state race to the bottom?

4. Revamp education (kick kids out that do not want to learn as a start).

Would you be willing to refund the kicked out kids' parents' tax money that would otherwise be allocated to public education?

Some of your ideas aren't so bad but completely fail to address the core problems of global labor arbitrage.

 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
but completely fail to address the core problems of global labor arbitrage.

Hard to address a problem that hasn't been empirically proven because, well, it doesn't exist.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: Evan
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
but completely fail to address the core problems of global labor arbitrage.

Hard to address a problem that hasn't been empirically proven because, well, it doesn't exist.

I'll leave it to the readers to decide for themselves whether or not supply-and-demand curves and price points exist and whether a huge increase in supply relative to demand lowers the price point.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
1. Eliminate federal environmental laws (where the pollution does not greatly impact neighboring states or nations, IE not dumping radioactive waste into the Mississippi River) and leave it to the individual states to set them.
2. Eliminate federal minimum wage (give individual states total control over their minimum wage).
3. Cut spending (bureaucracy, social programs, military, etc. whatever it takes to reduce debt).
4. Revamp education (kick kids out that do not want to learn as a start).
5. Use prisoners for manual labor to offset the cost of their imprisonment.
6. End the war on drugs (for everything save crack, meth, heroine and other hardcore drugs) and release those in jail on charges related to the now legal drugs. Tax the living hell out of the now legal narcotics.
7. Flat tax (~15% or whatever it takes), no deductions or write offs.
8. Voluntary free permanent sterilization or contraception to anyone on government assistance.

1. No, except where such laws provide no actual health, environmental, or aesthetic benefits. Failure to protect the environment will drastically raise healthcare costs, cause negative psychological impacts resulting in a whole host of issues, and WILL eventually kill us all. The environment is VASTLY more important than all the jobs and wealth in the entire world. We will always find some other way to live, so long as the planet will support us. The moment it won't, there won't be any people to have jobs or an economy.

2. Agreed. In fact, I'd go even further to beg the states not to fall victim to the minimum wage myth. However the government should also carefully instruct all citizens to stand up for their rights and show them how to stand together to destroy any business which is abusive to employees or consumers. It must also carefully regulate ALL industry for rights and safety violations. Finally the government should never give dollar one (not directly, not in tax breaks, nothing) to any business period.

3. 1000% agree. This should have been your #1.

4. And those kids you kick out will then be a burden on society, which if you ignore will utterly destroy you. Education isn't a luxury, it's an absolute necessity. The reason kids 'don't want to learn' is because society teaches them that intelligence is geeky and money is godly. The reason kids fail is because crybaby parent won't knock their kids into the dirt for being arrogant, egocentric, disrespectful, lazy, etc. You CAN fix education: First, let educators control education COMPLETELY. No businessmen, no politicians, no parents. Second, give HUGE benefits to couples with children where one parent's ONLY job is to be a stay home parent caring for house and children. Third, give teachers the right to attitude correction of problem students. Fourth, quit teaching to the average. Teach EVERY child to their maximum potential. Abandon the idea that everyone is equally intelligent. Fifth, use the great body of available research to instruct children in the manner which they'll learn best. Sixth, require that EVERY teacher have at a minimum a degree in every subject they will teach, a degree in cognitive/developmental psychology, and a degree in education. Finally, praise intelligence and creativity in society...not only for industrial development, but for it's own reward. End the whole 'nerd hate' thing. Between athletes and brainiacs there's only one that deserves praise and adoration...bring up the kids to realize this.

5. Can't be forced. Only way to make that work is if you allow the state to kill prisoners who don't comply, and most crimes don't warrant such a sentence. You COULD use it as a voluntary program earning points toward early release however...basically teaching a system of reward for hard work. However, this plan will also remove jobs from the total available, and therefore sustain elevated unemployment levels.

6. I'll go farther. End the war on pleasure. The government has no right to outlaw prostitution, drugs, alcohol, or anything else. End it all, totally. Implement TERRIBLE and swift punishment for crimes committed in association with those things, but do not legislate them. Regulate them, educate about them, tax the hell out of them (and implement a 5% tax on munchies sold at convenience stores in heavy pot areas), and work towards a society that doesn't need as much of them for a means of self-medicating away from the dismal horrors that await so many citizens.

7. I have no big issues with a flat tax, except that I realize the absolute necessity of one parent staying home with the kids in a marriage...therefore I would need to see an option for those arrangements...if not a big tax break then some sort of subsidy or support. I think tax breaks are better, but if you insist I'll entertain other options. Oh, btw, I'd also require ALL money to be EARNED by a single individual, one way or another, and therefore subject to a single set of tax laws. No hiding earning in companies, or other such nonsense. If money is made it MUST belong to someone, and that someone is fully responsible for it, and the tax on it.

8. Contraception should be free for everyone anyway. The benefits of population control outweigh the costs by many orders of magnitude. If not everyone, then there has to be a program in place for low income people, along with careful instruction and reinforcement.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Our economy is a service economy, a bunch of highly educated Houseboys we've become.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Our economy is a service economy, a bunch of highly educated Houseboys we've become.

Not really, but a bunch of stupid twats really thought that the US industry wasn't profitable, what they forgot was that eventually, the society they live in is the society that they belong to.

Socialism through capitalism isn't going to do much, as much as i hate to see the industry workers and those who have callouses on their hands forgotten....

Get the fucking thumbs out of your arses and do DIRECT stimulus right this fucking second, the social programs can wait, a working industry by default means better education.

Bump it up a notch for those who follow the market, for those who do not, well market rules apply.

Ther isn't a fuckload you can do if you think about it, but take a look at what France is doing with Citroen and Renault... They have a point even though their protectionism will hurt them when this turns, because it will, both you and me are old enough to remember the last time.

Hope all is well is with you and GB. :)
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,137
225
106
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Our economy is a service economy, a bunch of highly educated Houseboys we've become.

and you probably voted for ronald reagen too eh?

That was his moto and I've never bought it. How does a service economy afford 250K dollar homes?