Adding a new outlet in the garage - need help!

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: Paperdoc

Originally posted by: herm0016
if you thing 2 conductor will run something like that, then you should hire it out. that is a large amount of current.

The NUMBER of conductors is not important - it's the GAUGE (size) of the conductors! Since this device does not use a neutral line, you don't need one, at least at first glance.

BUT if it requires a specific type of outlet to plug into, the outlet itself may impose a need to supply a neutral line even if your specific device does not use it.

Best advice in this thread is from BigJ. He / she points out there are particular code requirements you do not know about; moreover, you clearly do not understand how to find the right info for your relatively simple initial question. And you haven't even thought about which type of cable you need, which depends on weather exposure, temperature extremes, physical exposure or protection of the cable, etc. Ask a pro!

In this case they are talking about the number of discrete conductors required to run the device, not the number of strands that make up the wire.

Two hots, one neutral, and one ground are what you would find in a piece of three conductor romex. The ground isn't counted because it's not normally a conductor.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Greenman
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

It's not all that tough to do, despite the size, it's still just romex and a two pole breaker. I'd go a size larger than required because of the length of the run. Don't get cheap and use aluminum wire, copper will cost more but it's worth the cost.

I was with you right up until there. Providing he uses a connector that's rated for AL, there is nothing wrong with AL Service Entrance / Feeder Cable.
Hauling 75 ft of Three wire copper is HEAVY, forget about the cost.

Use the correctly sized Aluminum wire and save your bucks and your back.

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Greenman
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

It's not all that tough to do, despite the size, it's still just romex and a two pole breaker. I'd go a size larger than required because of the length of the run. Don't get cheap and use aluminum wire, copper will cost more but it's worth the cost.

I was with you right up until there. Providing he uses a connector that's rated for AL, there is nothing wrong with AL Service Entrance / Feeder Cable.
Hauling 75 ft of Three wire copper is HEAVY, forget about the cost.

Use the correctly sized Aluminum wire and save your bucks and your back.

I agree that aluminum is just dandy for main service, but I don't like it run through an attic and walls. I've seen it fail twice for no apparent reason, and one of those times resulted in a fire.

Also, someone else noted special conditions for wiring to a welder, I don't think that applies to a portable unit, though I don't have a copy of the NEC in front of me to check.

Edit: To be fair, those two failures were the only two I've seen in thirty some years in the trades, but I still don't like the stuff.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Rubycon
It's wired with a NEMA 6-50P plug so technically L1/L2 and ground is all you need. Problem is this is a 50A circuit so you need to install a 50A double pole CB in your box not a 30A. You will need to run 6/3 to your outlet. This is like installing service for an electric range.

Exactly.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Greenman
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

It's not all that tough to do, despite the size, it's still just romex and a two pole breaker. I'd go a size larger than required because of the length of the run. Don't get cheap and use aluminum wire, copper will cost more but it's worth the cost.

I was with you right up until there. Providing he uses a connector that's rated for AL, there is nothing wrong with AL Service Entrance / Feeder Cable.
Hauling 75 ft of Three wire copper is HEAVY, forget about the cost.

Use the correctly sized Aluminum wire and save your bucks and your back.

I agree that aluminum is just dandy for main service, but I don't like it run through an attic and walls. I've seen it fail twice for no apparent reason, and one of those times resulted in a fire.

Also, someone else noted special conditions for wiring to a welder, I don't think that applies to a portable unit, though I don't have a copy of the NEC in front of me to check.

Edit: To be fair, those two failures were the only two I've seen in thirty some years in the trades, but I still don't like the stuff.

This is what the scope says for 630:

I. General
630.1 Scope
This article covers apparatus for electric arc welding, resistance welding, plasma cutting,
and other similar welding and cutting process equipment that is connected to an electric
supply system.

 

[Greenman]

Interesting. There is no distinction made between portable and permanent equipment at all? I just can't see the need for a disconnect on equipment that's plugged in.


Related to all this, it really pisses me off that the UBC isn't available online. It was developed with public money, why the hell should we have to pay $300 bucks it?

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Greenman
Interesting. There is no distinction made between portable and permanent equipment at all? I just can't see the need for a disconnect on equipment that's plugged in.


Related to all this, it really pisses me off that the UBC isn't available online. It was developed with public money, why the hell should we have to pay $300 bucks it?

In 630, it actually says disconnecting means and says a circuit breaker is OK for it. So I don't believe a separate disconnect switch is required.

630.13 Disconnecting Means
A disconnecting means shall be provided in the supply circuit for each arc welder that is
not equipped with a disconnect mounted as an integral part of the welder.
The disconnecting means shall be a switch or circuit breaker, and its rating shall not be
less than that necessary to accommodate overcurrent protection as specified under
630.12.

What he really should pay attention to is the derating in section 630.11, which allows him to size his conductors lower than the rating on the plate based on the duty cycle and type of welder. But if he does that, he sure as shit better know what he's doing.

And just one point I definitely want to make:
Consult a local licensed electrician before applying any advice that you read in this thread.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Sounds like they got you covered.

I don't particularly like Al, I prefer Cu. Yeah heavier and more expensive but can be thinner wire meaning a bit easier to route and you are pretty much guaranteed the receptacle you use will work fine with it. If you use Al you have to have one that is rated for it specifically, otherwise you could end up with connections becoming loose later on and high current + loose connections = arcing = not good.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Greenman

I agree that aluminum is just dandy for main service, but I don't like it run through an attic and walls. I've seen it fail twice for no apparent reason, and one of those times resulted in a fire.

Also, someone else noted special conditions for wiring to a welder, I don't think that applies to a portable unit, though I don't have a copy of the NEC in front of me to check.

Edit: To be fair, those two failures were the only two I've seen in thirty some years in the trades, but I still don't like the stuff.

Suit yourself. If this is a permanent installation, I see no problem with it.
There has to be a reason, and most likely it was kinked when unrolling or installingl or had a crew or nail driven through it. That would kill copper just as dead.
Wire doesn't fail spontaneously , on it's own. It isn't magic.

 

[TheSiege]

you only need a disconnect if its over 1/4 hp i believe, its a 50A circuit at 220? well thats 11000 watts, 1 hp = 746 watts, you need a separate disconnect. and 8/3 would work fine if it weren't such a long run, go with 6/3 mc cable and you will be fine, support it every 6 feet if you want to follow code and within 12in from any box (breaker, disconnect, plug) most if not all MC cable is thhnw so you can run it indoors or out.

 

[TheSiege]

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Greenman
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

It's not all that tough to do, despite the size, it's still just romex and a two pole breaker. I'd go a size larger than required because of the length of the run. Don't get cheap and use aluminum wire, copper will cost more but it's worth the cost.

I was with you right up until there. Providing he uses a connector that's rated for AL, there is nothing wrong with AL Service Entrance / Feeder Cable.
Hauling 75 ft of Three wire copper is HEAVY, forget about the cost.

Use the correctly sized Aluminum wire and save your bucks and your back.

I agree that aluminum is just dandy for main service, but I don't like it run through an attic and walls. I've seen it fail twice for no apparent reason, and one of those times resulted in a fire.

Also, someone else noted special conditions for wiring to a welder, I don't think that applies to a portable unit, though I don't have a copy of the NEC in front of me to check.

Edit: To be fair, those two failures were the only two I've seen in thirty some years in the trades, but I still don't like the stuff.

aluminum fails because of install, there is certain epoxy used for all connections and takes certain connectors that are rated for aluminum, aluminum expands and contracts which in turn crate loose connections, which then creates arcs, and thats where the fire begins, ask any electrician, they will tell you to run from aluminum, its not worth the risk

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: TheSiege
[
aluminum fails because of install, there is certain epoxy used for all connections and takes certain connectors that are rated for aluminum, aluminum expands and contracts which in turn crate loose connections, which then creates arcs, and thats where the fire begins, ask any electrician, they will tell you to run from aluminum, its not worth the risk

If you know what you're doing, and use the correctly rated connectors, Aluminum is a cost effective alternative.
An incorrectly installed copper conductor is no better than an incorrectly installed Aluminum connector.

What causes failures is people not knowing what they 're doing.
Aluminum wire has a worse rap than BOSE does.

If Aluminum wire was such a risk, they wouldn't codify it.

Also, that's not epoxy, it's Dielectric compound. It keeps the exterior from corroding, the cause of the scaling that is the actual cause of failure in AL connections.

 

[TheSiege]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: TheSiege
[
aluminum fails because of install, there is certain epoxy used for all connections and takes certain connectors that are rated for aluminum, aluminum expands and contracts which in turn crate loose connections, which then creates arcs, and thats where the fire begins, ask any electrician, they will tell you to run from aluminum, its not worth the risk

If you know what you're doing, and use the correctly rated connectors, Aluminum is a cost effective alternative.
An incorrectly installed copper conductor is no better than an incorrectly installed Aluminum connector.

What causes failures is people not knowing what they 're doing.
Aluminum wire has a worse rap than BOSE does.

If Aluminum wire was such a risk, they wouldn't codify it.

Ok, If aluminum is great how come in this cut throat housing market less then 1% of houses are wired with aluminum? You would think contractors would go with whats cheapest right?

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Greenman

I agree that aluminum is just dandy for main service, but I don't like it run through an attic and walls. I've seen it fail twice for no apparent reason, and one of those times resulted in a fire.

Also, someone else noted special conditions for wiring to a welder, I don't think that applies to a portable unit, though I don't have a copy of the NEC in front of me to check.

Edit: To be fair, those two failures were the only two I've seen in thirty some years in the trades, but I still don't like the stuff.

Suit yourself. If this is a permanent installation, I see no problem with it.
There has to be a reason, and most likely it was kinked when unrolling or installingl or had a crew or nail driven through it. That would kill copper just as dead.
Wire doesn't fail spontaneously , on it's own. It isn't magic.

That's why I said apparent, of course there was a reason, just no one could figure out what it was. My primary issue is that the material is fundamentally more fragile than copper. Very little damage can lead to a catastrophic failure. Perhaps I'm just conservative.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: TheSiege
Ok, If aluminum is great how come in this cut throat housing market less then 1% of houses are wired with aluminum? You would think contractors would go with whats cheapest right?

#1.
OHHH, But they did, back in the '70s when copper went through the roof, and they are again. Just read an article addressing these very issues in an industry (Electrical Contractor) magazine just a few months ago.

#2. We're not wiring a house, we're wiring a branch circuit.

#3. Since contractors don't have to hire the BEST employee to wire their outlets, in the long run, they can get any clown who knows a little about how to do copper and they probably won't burn the house down. Copper is far more forgiving of kinks and mishandling. Screw up a feed from an AL roll and it's only good for scrap. Kink one while not paying attention and you'll get it taken out of your pay.
#4. Since CU is the de facto standard, AL rated devices may cost a bit more than a CU only.
But check most Contractor packs of Edisons and Switches, they'll be combo listed so contractors can do repairs without having to dual stock.
Most 30 a Dryer and 50 a range outlets are rated CU / AL. The PLUG side will have a CU only rateing. That cord is going to be FLEXIBLE.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Greenman

I agree that aluminum is just dandy for main service, but I don't like it run through an attic and walls. I've seen it fail twice for no apparent reason, and one of those times resulted in a fire.

Also, someone else noted special conditions for wiring to a welder, I don't think that applies to a portable unit, though I don't have a copy of the NEC in front of me to check.

Edit: To be fair, those two failures were the only two I've seen in thirty some years in the trades, but I still don't like the stuff.

Suit yourself. If this is a permanent installation, I see no problem with it.
There has to be a reason, and most likely it was kinked when unrolling or installingl or had a crew or nail driven through it. That would kill copper just as dead.
Wire doesn't fail spontaneously , on it's own. It isn't magic.

That's why I said apparent, of course there was a reason, just no one could figure out what it was. My primary issue is that the material is fundamentally more fragile than copper. Very little damage can lead to a catastrophic failure. Perhaps I'm just conservative.

Politics not withstanding....
You do know High Voltage / High Tension Wire is Aluminum, right?

***** WILD GUESSING ALERT !!!! *******
What follows is pure speculation .....
There is far more attention being given to insulation integrity these days and this may have been present in your incident.

If the insulation gets damaged during the conduit pull, any subsequent short and fire would render such evidence difficult to ascertain.
Maybe a cause ?, n'est pas?

 

[TheSiege]

ok well believe what you want, using copper is lot like getting a warranty and piece of mind, I'm an electrician and outside of service I wouldn't ever use aluminum not even if I installed it, unless it was for buses in some gear.

 

[TheSiege]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Greenman

I agree that aluminum is just dandy for main service, but I don't like it run through an attic and walls. I've seen it fail twice for no apparent reason, and one of those times resulted in a fire.

Also, someone else noted special conditions for wiring to a welder, I don't think that applies to a portable unit, though I don't have a copy of the NEC in front of me to check.

Edit: To be fair, those two failures were the only two I've seen in thirty some years in the trades, but I still don't like the stuff.

Suit yourself. If this is a permanent installation, I see no problem with it.
There has to be a reason, and most likely it was kinked when unrolling or installingl or had a crew or nail driven through it. That would kill copper just as dead.
Wire doesn't fail spontaneously , on it's own. It isn't magic.

That's why I said apparent, of course there was a reason, just no one could figure out what it was. My primary issue is that the material is fundamentally more fragile than copper. Very little damage can lead to a catastrophic failure. Perhaps I'm just conservative.

Politics not withstanding....
You do know High Voltage / High Tension Wire is Aluminum, right?

***** WILD GUESSING ALERT !!!! *******
What follows is pure speculation .....
There is far more attention being given to insulation integrity these days and this may have been present in your incident.

If the insulation gets damaged during the conduit pull, any subsequent short and fire would render such evidence difficult to ascertain.
Maybe a cause ?, n'est pas?

i don't remeber him saying anything about conduit, not to many residential houses have conduit anyway, besides maybe some pvc or conduit to circuits ran on the outside of houses.

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: Greenman
Interesting. There is no distinction made between portable and permanent equipment at all? I just can't see the need for a disconnect on equipment that's plugged in.


Related to all this, it really pisses me off that the UBC isn't available online. It was developed with public money, why the hell should we have to pay $300 bucks it?

In 630, it actually says disconnecting means and says a circuit breaker is OK for it. So I don't believe a separate disconnect switch is required.

630.13 Disconnecting Means
A disconnecting means shall be provided in the supply circuit for each arc welder that is
not equipped with a disconnect mounted as an integral part of the welder.
The disconnecting means shall be a switch or circuit breaker, and its rating shall not be
less than that necessary to accommodate overcurrent protection as specified under
630.12.

What he really should pay attention to is the derating in section 630.11, which allows him to size his conductors lower than the rating on the plate based on the duty cycle and type of welder. But if he does that, he sure as shit better know what he's doing.

And just one point I definitely want to make:
Consult a local licensed electrician before applying any advice that you read in this thread.

I would never recommend derating on something that's plugged in, as you never know what the next guy will do with that outlet. And while the welder he's looking at is only a 20% duty cycle, he might upgrade in a few years and forget about the derated wiring. I don't think I'd get the inspector to buy it unless it was on a hard wired piece of equipment.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: Greenman
Interesting. There is no distinction made between portable and permanent equipment at all? I just can't see the need for a disconnect on equipment that's plugged in.


Related to all this, it really pisses me off that the UBC isn't available online. It was developed with public money, why the hell should we have to pay $300 bucks it?

In 630, it actually says disconnecting means and says a circuit breaker is OK for it. So I don't believe a separate disconnect switch is required.

630.13 Disconnecting Means
A disconnecting means shall be provided in the supply circuit for each arc welder that is
not equipped with a disconnect mounted as an integral part of the welder.
The disconnecting means shall be a switch or circuit breaker, and its rating shall not be
less than that necessary to accommodate overcurrent protection as specified under
630.12.

What he really should pay attention to is the derating in section 630.11, which allows him to size his conductors lower than the rating on the plate based on the duty cycle and type of welder. But if he does that, he sure as shit better know what he's doing.

And just one point I definitely want to make:
Consult a local licensed electrician before applying any advice that you read in this thread.

I would never recommend derating on something that's plugged in, as you never know what the next guy will do with that outlet. And while the welder he's looking at is only a 20% duty cycle, he might upgrade in a few years and forget about the derated wiring. I don't think I'd get the inspector to buy it unless it was on a hard wired piece of equipment.

Not saying that I'd recommend it, just that it is in there.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: TheSiege
ok well believe what you want, using copper is lot like getting a warranty and piece of mind, I'm an electrician and outside of service I wouldn't ever use aluminum not even if I installed it, unless it was for buses in some gear.

No, I'll believe what the Code says is true as to applications and the suitability of one conductor type or another.

What I do know is this..... SELLING COPPER is like SELLING A WARRANTY.
Most people never need to spend the extra money for that "piece of mind".

This isn't about my "feeings" about one metal over another.
Everytime I hear somebody say this nonsense about "Copper kicks Aluminum's ASS MAn", I'm thinking Mac guy and PC guy meet the Centrum Vitamins Strange Cousin's, The Periodic Tables, and they're all like "One Flew Over The CuCkoo's Nest", all sparking and stufff.....


It's Just WIRE !!!!!~ unless it says MONSTER, then it's CABLE.... God, I'm still writing ads...

 

[SampSon]

You need to hire a professional.

If you don't, you're going to burn your house down.

 

[Greenman]

I agree aluminum has it's uses, and there is no doubt that properly installed and protected it will give years of trouble free service. But it is fragile, it will fail if you kink it, or if you knick it, and that makes it the second choice for me. That's why anyone that's asking for advice on basic wiring should be pointed toward copper, they don't know how to use aluminum, they don't understand that it's fragile, and they sure as hell don't need any added complications.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Bottom line is if you want your homeowners insurance to cover your house in case of disaster, get a professional. There's stubborn and then there's stupid.

 

[seemingly random]

While a professional will probably, but not necessarily, do a proper and satisfactory job, you might be stunned at the cost. All of the posters rightly point out the possible pitfalls and if you're not the type of person to seriously research all of the necessary aspects, then an electrician should used. I assume that electricians carry liabiblity insurance for failed jobs.

Since you're wanting to mess with a welding machine, you're obviously a hands on person. It's unfortunate that the installation location is so far from the main service box. Are there any nearby friends/relatives that have more convenient access in their shops?

There are so many things to consider to add just a 120v outlet let alone a new 50a circuit. There's tools that may or may not be used again. There's the knowledge required to do it properly. Has the house main box been inspected for available physical space for a 240v breaker - ie. the same as two 120v breakers? How about the service size to the house? How about balance - will it handle the a/c + clothes dryer + frig + oven + a couple of hair dryers simultaneously?

I don't want to discourage curiosity - just realize that there is a lot involved and don't make a decision until all is known. Don't skimp on wire size. I also shy away from aluminum. Treat this project as you would a chainsaw.