Adding 50 million impoverished workers in the labor force will be great for the middle class.

[techs]

Adding 50 million impoverished workers in the labor force will be great for the middle class?
Who could have possibly believed this?
Isn't it time to completely disgrace those people who pushed the idea that outsourcing was good for Americans? How could effectively adding 50 million impoverished workers to the work force be good for American workers? It wasn't.
No more clothes, no more tires, no more computers, no more home appliances, soon to be no more cars, then no more planes.
Apparently the only thing left for Americans to manufacture will be outrageous claims of how good life now is that Americans are losing weight because the can't afford food.

 

[BoomerD]

Give it a rest Techs...you know the Republicans won't rest until we get back to the days of "Lords and serfs."

The whole GM fiasco and the Republican refusal to bail them out is more about breaking organized labor than any pretend fiscal concerns...

Doing away with organized labor has been the Republican goal for decades...and as time goes on, their attacks on it only get worse.

 

[StageLeft]

Better than taking the same caliber of workers into the borders, isn't it? On the one hand, you buy cheap goods, on the second you buy cheap goods and watch them erode from services that they don't even come close to paying their share in taxes to support.

Not that these are mutually exclusive, though.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Give it a rest Techs...you know the Republicans won't rest until we get back to the days of "Lords and serfs."

The whole GM fiasco and the Republican refusal to bail them out is more about breaking organized labor than any pretend fiscal concerns...

Doing away with organized labor has been the Republican goal for decades...and as time goes on, their attacks on it only get worse.

At some point you have to face reality that U.S. companies have to be competitive against international competition. You are being spoon-fed a slanted view from the Democrats and other liberal talking heads.

GM lost ~$40b this past year while Toyota profited ~$17b on the sale of roughly equal number of vehicles between them. If you cut the CEO pay down to nothing, GM still lost ~$39.99b. If you want to live in your fairy world believing that a bailout without sufficient concessions to cut costs will help GM survive, then there's nothing further to discuss.

The Republicans want to make sure GM is competitive against competition.

 

[Starbuck1975]

The whole GM fiasco and the Republican refusal to bail them out is more about breaking organized labor than any pretend fiscal concerns...

Yet you fail to address that foreign car companies, with non-union manufacturing facilities in America that create American jobs, are managing to survive the current economic crisis with little to no labor reductions. Similarly, the Big Three outsource as well.

Unions are not the center of gravity of this problem, but the UAW is part of the problem.

The whole notion of American companies versus foreign companies is ridiculous. The global economy is not going away, and outsourcing is one component of that reality.

The Big Three need to restructure, from the highest levels of executive leadership to the line UAW worker.

Doing away with organized labor has been the Republican goal for decades...and as time goes on, their attacks on it only get worse.

The Republican lawmakers that oppose the auto bailout have non-union car manufacturing facilities in their states. They are rightfully protecting their electorate, who work for companies that compete with the Big Three.

If Toyota and Honda and Nissan have better business models, why are we throwing taxpayer money at the Big Three, who have an antiquated mass production corporate structure and who made unrealistic contractual concessions to the UAW.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: techs
Adding 50 million impoverished workers in the labor force will be great for the middle class?
Who could have possibly believed this?
Isn't it time to completely disgrace those people who pushed the idea that outsourcing was good for Americans? How could effectively adding 50 million impoverished workers to the work force be good for American workers? It wasn't.
No more clothes, no more tires, no more computers, no more home appliances, soon to be no more cars, then no more planes.
Apparently the only thing left for Americans to manufacture will be outrageous claims of how good life now is that Americans are losing weight because the can't afford food.

Cry, whine, bitch, moan, do everything you can to talk about how crappy the situation is.

But you're not exactly laying out how the U.S. can remain competitive in a global marketplace. These jobs are all going to places where their workers are in far shittier conditions than those of even the U.S.'s poor. Our unemployed are in better shape than their employed. How long can this last. The world is globalizing, you can't stop it.

It's easy to dream.

It's difficult to face the harshnesses of reality.

 

[alchemize]

If you seek answers, many of them are in this book:

The World is Flat

But nobody honestly believes you seek answers.

 

[SagaLore]

I have no clue what the hell you are talking about.

 

[imported_K3N]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: techs
Adding 50 million impoverished workers in the labor force will be great for the middle class?
Who could have possibly believed this?
Isn't it time to completely disgrace those people who pushed the idea that outsourcing was good for Americans? How could effectively adding 50 million impoverished workers to the work force be good for American workers? It wasn't.
No more clothes, no more tires, no more computers, no more home appliances, soon to be no more cars, then no more planes.
Apparently the only thing left for Americans to manufacture will be outrageous claims of how good life now is that Americans are losing weight because the can't afford food.

Cry, whine, bitch, moan, do everything you can to talk about how crappy the situation is.

But you're not exactly laying out how the U.S. can remain competitive in a global marketplace. These jobs are all going to places where their workers are in far shittier conditions than those of even the U.S.'s poor. Our unemployed are in better shape than their employed. How long can this last. The world is globalizing, you can't stop it.

It's easy to dream.

It's difficult to face the harshnesses of reality.

The standard of living in the United States has been going down since 1973. The average CEO made about 25 to 1 ratio their workers while today they make 315 to 1 to the average worker today. At this rate we'll return back to a state of Feudalism within the next 100 years. Outsourcing may be good in the short term but horrible in the long term. It devalues the wages of the middle class.

 

[CycloWizard]

There was a labor shortfall of 50 million in the US. If these companies hadn't outsourced, the economy would have crashed much sooner. Sadly, the 50 million number is almost identical to the number of additional citizens we would have had if abortion hadn't been legalized. I don't see it as a coincidence. There are clear mathematical growth laws for populations and what is needed to sustain their growth. We constrained the growth and suffer the consequences - we must sleep in the bed we made.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: techs
Adding 50 million impoverished workers in the labor force will be great for the middle class?
----------
Apparently the only thing left for Americans to manufacture will be outrageous claims of how good life now is that Americans are losing weight because the can't afford food.

Usa share of global manufacturing output

Although, in the big scheme of things it would have been better for our middle class to just let these impoverished workers get exterminated, where ever they exist.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
There was a labor shortfall of 50 million in the US. If these companies hadn't outsourced, the economy would have crashed much sooner. Sadly, the 50 million number is almost identical to the number of additional citizens we would have had if abortion hadn't been legalized. I don't see it as a coincidence. There are clear mathematical growth laws for populations and what is needed to sustain their growth. We constrained the growth and suffer the consequences - we must sleep in the bed we made.

did you type that with a flame retardant 15 foot pole?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
There was a labor shortfall of 50 million in the US. If these companies hadn't outsourced, the economy would have crashed much sooner. Sadly, the 50 million number is almost identical to the number of additional citizens we would have had if abortion hadn't been legalized. I don't see it as a coincidence. There are clear mathematical growth laws for populations and what is needed to sustain their growth. We constrained the growth and suffer the consequences - we must sleep in the bed we made.

That's quite a bold set of assertions there...got any proof to back them up?

I'd also be curious to hear your feelings on immigration...surely THAT is a potential solution to our "labor shortfall".

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: techs
Adding 50 million impoverished workers in the labor force will be great for the middle class?
Who could have possibly believed this?
Isn't it time to completely disgrace those people who pushed the idea that outsourcing was good for Americans? How could effectively adding 50 million impoverished workers to the work force be good for American workers? It wasn't.
No more clothes, no more tires, no more computers, no more home appliances, soon to be no more cars, then no more planes.
Apparently the only thing left for Americans to manufacture will be outrageous claims of how good life now is that Americans are losing weight because the can't afford food.

Cry, whine, bitch, moan, do everything you can to talk about how crappy the situation is.

But you're not exactly laying out how the U.S. can remain competitive in a global marketplace. These jobs are all going to places where their workers are in far shittier conditions than those of even the U.S.'s poor. Our unemployed are in better shape than their employed. How long can this last. The world is globalizing, you can't stop it.

It's easy to dream.

It's difficult to face the harshnesses of reality.

The standard of living in the United States has been going down since 1973. The average CEO made about 25 to 1 ratio their workers while today they make 315 to 1 to the average worker today. At this rate we'll return back to a state of Feudalism with the next 100 years. Outsourcing may be good in the short term but horrible in the long term. It devalues the wages of the middle class.

Did you copy & paste that from another website or something?

You say outsourcing is horrible in the long term. How do you STOP outsourcing? Foreign workers can manufacture equal quality products for a fraction of the cost of what a U.S. company can do. This isn't political. This isn't Feudalism. :roll:

 

[sandorski]

Outsourcing is Good, if you have New Tech online to Produce New Products. You need New Industry to pop up and replace the Outsourced Production. If you don't, your Economy grows weaker.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
That's quite a bold set of assertions there...got any proof to back them up?

There are many, many models for population growth and the dependence of that growth on the existing population. Of course I can't prove my speculation, but I don't think it's that far out there either. If a growth law requires exponential population growth to supply everything the population needs (as virtually every model I've ever seen requires), then it is a prediction of that model that the supply will fall short if the population falls short. However, capitalism won't allow the supply to fall short, so instead it increases the effective population by offshoring and immigration, including (but not limited to) illegal immigration.

I'd also be curious to hear your feelings on immigration...surely THAT is a potential solution to our "labor shortfall".

It is a potential solution. However, it has its drawbacks. If the nation were swamped with 50 million additional immigrants in the past 40 years, then we would probably have an entirely different set of problems due to the lag time required for assimilation: learning the language, not paying into social programs but withdrawing from them, and so on. The only way these things are really overcome is when a person is born here. It doesn't have to be this way, but that's the way our system is designed, so that's the way it is. I would support changing the system to increase the level of immigration, but that's another thread entirely.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Rainsford
That's quite a bold set of assertions there...got any proof to back them up?

There are many, many models for population growth and the dependence of that growth on the existing population. Of course I can't prove my speculation, but I don't think it's that far out there either. If a growth law requires exponential population growth to supply everything the population needs (as virtually every model I've ever seen requires), then it is a prediction of that model that the supply will fall short if the population falls short. However, capitalism won't allow the supply to fall short, so instead it increases the effective population by offshoring and immigration, including (but not limited to) illegal immigration.

I'd also be curious to hear your feelings on immigration...surely THAT is a potential solution to our "labor shortfall".

It is a potential solution. However, it has its drawbacks. If the nation were swamped with 50 million additional immigrants in the past 40 years, then we would probably have an entirely different set of problems due to the lag time required for assimilation: learning the language, not paying into social programs but withdrawing from them, and so on. The only way these things are really overcome is when a person is born here. It doesn't have to be this way, but that's the way our system is designed, so that's the way it is. I would support changing the system to increase the level of immigration, but that's another thread entirely.

The problem I have with your population "shortfall" theory is that I see no real argument that we're OFF the ideal population growth curve. Outsourcing doesn't mean our supply of workers is falling short, when costs are low enough demand for labor will dramatically increase...demand for labor grows to meet supply when price is flexible. Without the low costs of outsourcing, demand for labor would be lower...or when a decrease in labor is not possible, costs will go up. American workers aren't going to answer helpdesk calls or pick lettuce for a few dollars a day. Cheaper labor sources are a result of many factors, but I'm not convinced a lack of native workers is one of them...

In any case, you forgot the other position you took...that abortion was primarily to blame for our unproven "shortfall" of workers.

 

[umbrella39]

Outsourcing the lines was awesome for Michigan's economy. In the late 90's we could not find enough Machine Builders, Pipe-Fitters, Electricians, Painters, or Welders to staff at companies like Ingersoll-Rand, Comau-Pico, Wisne, etc. Unemployment was a thing of the past. Almost all of the lines were being designed, built, and installed here in Michigan.

First the engineering and design jobs started getting outsourced. Shortly thereafter, the lines were being built by Mexican workers. Then, the only way to stay employed in the machine tool industry for the Michigan skilled tradesmen was to be the ones who ended up installing the lines (tbh a lot of Mexican workers were flown up to do that, too).

Worked out great.

 

[Steeplerot]

Capitalism in action. Call it feudalism, whatever, some people are going to have to be layed off, outsourced and unemployed to feed the machine.
Hate to say it but it is going to keep turning to shit until the left in this country stops being such pussies about the big S word and fight back against the rights failed ideology and stop letting the robber baron mindset folks keep fearing everyone by telling us Socialism=Stalinism and protect our workers.
Until then our democrats will be pandering cowards and we will get sold out to the highest bidder piecemeal until the elites have it all.
They have been waiting to fuck labor, and now they have, the middle class is next. A middle class with no representation anymore.
And that is the way they want it.
Setting things straight will be a huge mess none of us will want to deal with, we already fought this battle against them, now they are winning. Might as well finally see their shit for what it is and fight the class war or just give up already. The left is useless in this country sad to say. It has let what so many workers fought and died for just get handed off over fear of a few ideological catchphrases the right turned against us, using PC to t heir advantage.

They have turned what fighting spirit the left had against ourselves by our own fear of seeming "radical", like calling them on their shit and taking care of what made this country strong is somehow connected to the failed USSR or some BS.

Well guess what,if you haven't noticed the right has turned VERY radical since Reagan and are not going to play nice, never have. Unless we put them in their place again.
Look at history. Or just let the middle class dwindle back into serfdom all for the almighty $ they worship.
This forum is pretty depressing, the left here is just falling over themselves to be so uber-PC and moderate and not rock the boat like you all are afraid bill fucking o reilly is going to pop out of nowhere and start scolding you guys.

Disclaimer:
*I am not responding back to any right-leaning posters about this matter unless you actually have something intelligent to say -so save it

 

[First]

Outsourcing and immigration have proven to be an economic net positive in terms of wages and standards of living since it started booming in the 70's. Bottom line, we don't outsource and we'd see consumer prices skyrocket (whether it's everyday clothes from China, food from basically everywhere, cars from Asia, etc.).

Not really much to argue here, outsourcing and immigration is part of the American way of life and it's not going away anytime soon, for very good reasons.

 

[babylon5]

Cheap labor, wherever it is located, is what Americans prefer.

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Give it a rest Techs...you know the Republicans won't rest until we get back to the days of "Lords and serfs."

The whole GM fiasco and the Republican refusal to bail them out is more about breaking organized labor than any pretend fiscal concerns...

Doing away with organized labor has been the Republican goal for decades...and as time goes on, their attacks on it only get worse.

Aren't the dems in charge of the senate?

In any case, I'm glad they finally slowed this bailout plan down. Too bad Bush will probably spoon feed the big 3. I wish they wouldn't have passed the wall street bail out plan, this is getting out of control. I wish a bus would run over every fucking tard that voted for that bailout plan.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Give it a rest Techs...you know the Republicans won't rest until we get back to the days of "Lords and serfs."

The whole GM fiasco and the Republican refusal to bail them out is more about breaking organized labor than any pretend fiscal concerns...

Doing away with organized labor has been the Republican goal for decades...and as time goes on, their attacks on it only get worse.

Aren't the dems in charge of the senate?

In any case, I'm glad they finally slowed this bailout plan down. Too bad Bush will probably spoon feed the big 3. I wish they wouldn't have passed the wall street bail out plan, this is getting out of control. I wish a bus would run over every fucking tard that voted for that bailout plan.

Great sense of humor...NO, while they currently are tied in the senate...they will have a majority come January...still not veto-proof, nor enough to force any legislation without some Republican "traitors" voting with them.

While I tend to think letting the banks go belly up would be a terrible thing for America, so is bailing them out and letting them do more-or-less the same-old bullshit with our money.

IMO, bailing any of them out without fixing the underlying problems in the economy is just throwing good money after bad. Without available credit, not many cars are gonna be sold even if the car companies are bailed out. If you just bail out the financial institutions but don't REQUIRE them to make that money available, and permit them to hoard it for their OWN survival, not many people are gonna buy anything.

Let them all fail and the entire country will crash...IMO, the changes that need to be made are too painful to be made voluntarily.

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Let them all fail and the entire country will crash...IMO, the changes that need to be made are too painful to be made voluntarily.

That would be a chance I would be willing to take as I don't think throwing money at the problem like they are doing is going to fix anything.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Let them all fail and the entire country will crash...IMO, the changes that need to be made are too painful to be made voluntarily.

That would be a chance I would be willing to take as I don't think throwing money at the problem like they are doing is going to fix anything.

I'm just not sure letting the country crash would be a good thing.

However, I don't think the current hemorraghing of cash is gonna make a difference long-term either.

None of the financial institutions wants to take responsibility for their actions...how can you fix something when no one wants to admit that they broke it in the first place?

The righties blame the Dems, the lefties blame the Repubs...those of us caught in the cross-fire are getting fucked left and right as pensions and 401K's are going in the shitter...while the fat-cats keep getting richer.