Add Dennis Hastert(R) to the Economically clueless list?

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
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The Economics of Progress

By George F. Will
Friday, February 20, 2004; Page A25


It is difficult to say something perfectly, precisely false. But House Speaker Dennis Hastert did when participating in the bipartisan piling-on against the president's economic adviser, who imprudently said something sensible.

John Kerry and John Edwards, who are not speaking under oath and who know that economic illiteracy has never been a disqualification for high office, have led the scrum against the chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers, N. Gregory Mankiw, who said the arguments for free trade apply to trade in services as well as manufactured goods. But the prize for the pithiest nonsense went to Hastert: "An economy suffers when jobs disappear."

So the economy suffered when automobiles caused the disappearance of the jobs of most blacksmiths, buggy makers, operators of livery stables, etc.? The economy did not seem to be suffering in 1999, when 33 million jobs were wiped out -- by an economic dynamism that created 35.7 million jobs. How many of the 4,500 U.S. jobs that IBM is planning to create this year will be made possible by sending 3,000 jobs overseas?

Hastert's ideal economy, where jobs do not disappear, existed almost everywhere for almost everyone through almost all of human history. In, say, 12th-century France, the ox behind which a man plowed a field changed, but otherwise the plowman was doing what generations of his ancestors had done and what generations of his descendants were to do. Those were the good old days, before economic growth.

The disappearance of whole categories of jobs can be desirable for reasons other than economic rationality. The economist Irwin Stelzer recalls that John L. Lewis, the fire-breathing leader of the United Mine Workers of America from 1920 to 1960, said that he hoped to see the day when no man would make his living by going underground.

For the highly competent workforce of this wealthy nation, the loss of jobs is not a zero-sum game: It is a trading up in social rewards. When the presidential candidates were recently in South Carolina, histrionically lamenting the loss of textile jobs, they surely noticed the huge BMW presence. It is the "offshoring" of German jobs because Germany's irrational labor laws, among other things, give America a comparative advantage. Such economic calculation explains the manufacture of Mercedes-Benzes in Alabama, Hondas in Ohio, Toyotas in California.

As long as the American jobs going offshore were blue-collar jobs, the political issue did not attain the heat it has now that white-collar job losses frighten a more articulate, assertive social class. But an old lesson applies to this new situation.

The welfare state, beginning with unemployment relief, was pioneered in part by European conservatives, Disraeli and especially Bismarck, to reconcile people to change -- to the frictions and casualties of economic dynamism on which, such enlightened conservatives saw, national greatness would depend in the industrial age. It is sound social policy, and simple justice, that the party benefiting from free trade -- the nation as a whole -- should be taxed to ameliorate the discomforts of those who pay the short-term price of progress.

That is the case for education and job training for persons needing to change their skills. Such assistance is especially imperative when the casualties of change bear no responsibility for their fate -- unlike, say, U.S. steelworkers, whose overreaching in collective bargaining deepened the problems of their industry.

Kerry says offshoring is done by "Benedict Arnold CEOs." But if he wants to improve the health of U.S. airlines, and the security of the jobs and pensions of most airline employees, should he not applaud Delta for saving $25 million a year by sending some reservation services to India?

Does Kerry really want to restrain the rise of health care costs? Does he oppose having X-rays analyzed in India at a fraction of the U.S. cost?

In November, Indiana Gov. Joseph Kernan canceled a $15 million contract with a firm in India to process state unemployment claims. The contract was given to a U.S. firm that will charge $23 million. Because of this 53 percent price increase, there will be 8 million fewer state dollars for schools, hospitals, law enforcement, etc. And the benefit to Indiana is . . . what?

When Kernan made this gesture he probably was wearing something that was wholly or partly imported and that at one time, before offshoring, would have been entirely made here. Such potential embarrassments are among the perils of making moral grandstanding into an economic policy.



 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
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Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Thanks Insane - I know it's tough for people to register;)

No comments on this?

CkG

Again the "Re-Train" word is used and not saying what to re-train in. Pure Bullsh1t.

Say exactly what to re-train in and then you and the rest have a point, until then it is smoke up the ying yang.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
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Re-train or just plain train people in a skill. What specifics do you want? Does everyone have to train in the same thing? There is NO guarantee for a job here in the real world. You need to have marketable skills to gain employment, so if your current skill set(or lack there of) hinders your employment options - you must learn something that IS marketable.
Does the gov't really need to hold your hand dave? Or are you anti-big brother only when it's convenient?

CkG
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Hmm let's see. Healthcare? IT Security? DBA's? Pharmacist? Finance/Accounting? Nah those are all too tough.

Actually, you are correct. There is no retraining amount in the world that is going to convince someone to hire a lunatic whose claim to fame is how shltty of an employee he was. It's called black balled.
 

DanceMan

Senior member
Jan 26, 2001
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Originally posted by: alchemize
Hmm let's see. Healthcare? IT Security? DBA's? Pharmacist? Finance/Accounting? Nah those are all too tough.

Healthcare? Some of that goes overseas too (raidology examination, lab analysis, etc). Also, the equiv of H1-B like visas are being set up to import healthcare workers already (nurses, etc).

IT Security? Well, when all of your IT has moved overseas, who needs IT Security here?

DBA's? Same as for IT security.

Pharmacist? I'll grant you that one. However, when companies will be offering limited healthcare benefits, and the cost of drugs going up and up, and those who can afford them will try to get them from Canada or mailorder, who knows what their job outlook will be?

Finance/Accounting?? Nope, those are moving too!

As an aside - I know people talk about re-training. I agree it's a good start, but there are issues with that. The one big issue that I see is how do you re-train large numbers of people mid-career? It's a tough situation for a breadwinner who has a family, who must support themselves while they re-train, maybe for a number of years. Most of the jobs above need at least a good 2-year degree (and for Finance/Accounting and Pharmicists, probaby the equiv of Master's degrees) We just haven't figured out how to re-train people given our current education system (K-12 and post K-12).
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
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Or hell, I finished My BBA in Mis in Dec of 01.

I just graduated, Began looking for a better Job, got an MBA and am now considering "Re-training" for some other careers.

After all this Retraining and the costs involved, The Student loan debt rising, It would have been more finacially wise for me to just be a waiter.


Seriously, How can you continue to ask people to retrain when they still havent paid for their last Retraining.
 

fjord

Senior member
Feb 18, 2004
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Nice effort George. I give that spin a C-

Down here in real life, people are having tough times. By next fiscal year I'll see 8-10 of my co-workers out on the street.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: fjord
Nice effort George. I give that spin a C-

Down here in real life, people are having tough times. By next fiscal year I'll see 8-10 of my co-workers out on the street.

out on the street?
rolleye.gif

Maybe they should make themselves more marketable then - no? Just because you are employed doesn't mean you don't have to continually keep yourself marketable or strive to become marketable(if you weren't before).

CkG
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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Give us the usual "make yourself more marketable" spin, CkG- sounds fine on an individual level, doesn't necessarily scale up real well, particularly in the situation where the market is drying up...

Guys with computer science degrees are a dime a dozen, even master's degrees. Ditto for a lot of other supposedly solid white collar qualifications, stuff that looked good 4 or 5 years ago...

I'm sure there are a passel of Indian CAD jockeys drooling on your paycheck, too, CkG- ask not for whom the bell tolls...
 

sierrita

Senior member
Mar 24, 2002
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Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Give us the usual "make yourself more marketable" spin, CkG- sounds fine on an individual level, doesn't necessarily scale up real well, particularly in the situation where the market is drying up...

Guys with computer science degrees are a dime a dozen, even master's degrees. Ditto for a lot of other supposedly solid white collar qualifications, stuff that looked good 4 or 5 years ago...

I'm sure there are a passel of Indian CAD jockeys drooling on your paycheck, too, CkG- ask not for whom the bell tolls...



God, no please! Then he'd have even more time to post, wink and roll.




rolleye.gif
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
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Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Give us the usual "make yourself more marketable" spin, CkG- sounds fine on an individual level, doesn't necessarily scale up real well, particularly in the situation where the market is drying up...

Guys with computer science degrees are a dime a dozen, even master's degrees. Ditto for a lot of other supposedly solid white collar qualifications, stuff that looked good 4 or 5 years ago...

I'm sure there are a passel of Indian CAD jockeys drooling on your paycheck, too, CkG- ask not for whom the bell tolls...

After doing interviews on software developers for the last couple of weeks. I would have to say they are not a dime a dozen. Qualified ones are hard to come by. Of the resumes I recieved about 1/2 should not have applied for the position, about a 1/4 had outdated software skills, a couple had already taken a position, a few were still getting their degree and not available. The IT market is tighter than you think.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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Healthcare? Some of that goes overseas too (raidology examination, lab analysis, etc). Also, the equiv of H1-B like visas are being set up to import healthcare workers already (nurses, etc).
nurses are in super high demand though, and its not like that job can be shipped overseas. there is still lots of room for natives in the job. sure, doesn't pay as well as dr., but doesn't have a huge debt load either
 

Bleep

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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I just bought out a guy that was failing in his business because of some bad decisions made by him, it has been a little over 6 months and I wanted to hire 2 new people, for the 2 jobs I had 96 applicants 3 had masters degrees that have been out of work over 6 months and the problem is they are in their 50's. These people do not fit into any corporate inviroment out there as a new employee and are willing to take most any job that they can handle physicially. I could only hire 1 of them because of the on the job training that I will have to pay for. I dont know what kind of retraining anyone could pick and even think of having a chance at a job because the job market changes so much from day to day.
Bleep
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
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In November, Indiana Gov. Joseph Kernan canceled a $15 million contract with a firm in India to process state unemployment claims. The contract was given to a U.S. firm that will charge $23 million.

Let's see, $15 million gone outright from the US economy with $8 million staying in, or $23 million staying in our economy with a 'waste' of $8 million. The bigger issue than the loss of jobs here is the loss of actual money from our economy. We are already bleeding hard by the amount of goods we import, if we start doing it with labor as well our economy is going to tank.
 

kandarp

Platinum Member
May 19, 2003
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This is a structural shift in the economy and processes that firms use to get things done. As things become commoditized, firms, like water, seek the path of least resistence and jobs will flow overseas, however this not a permanent trend, as living standards increase overseas, there will undoubtedly be increases in wages, which at some point which make firms indifferent between sending xrays overseas or keeping them here to be analyzed. Unless were ready to accept communist and ultra protectionist policies like China (where the one and only national labor union is owned and run by the government) I dont think this job loss will stop in the short term. The double edge sword of globalization has finally hit the US public hard.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
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www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Give us the usual "make yourself more marketable" spin, CkG- sounds fine on an individual level, doesn't necessarily scale up real well, particularly in the situation where the market is drying up...

Guys with computer science degrees are a dime a dozen, even master's degrees. Ditto for a lot of other supposedly solid white collar qualifications, stuff that looked good 4 or 5 years ago...

I'm sure there are a passel of Indian CAD jockeys drooling on your paycheck, too, CkG- ask not for whom the bell tolls...

It's fun to make fun of truth - no? Do you really think you are "owed" anything by your employer besides a paycheck? Do you understand what it is? It is a trade. You trade your time, skill, and knowledge for their money. If you don't have what they want - why should they give up their money? And if you aren't compensated enough for your skill, knowledge, and time - then you find someone who will pay for it. It really is quite simple - either you keep yourself marketable or you get left behind. I find it amazing that people like dave who one designed and engineered modems finds himself unmarketable. He probably isn't as unintelligent as his posts here in P&N suggest, but one thing has happened - he was left behind in the job market. He doesn't have what employers are looking for in that same field, or find a different field of work.
In America you are not guaranteed a job - you are not guaranteed a paycheck - YOU EARN them. It bothers me that people don't understand these basic concepts anymore and that people just expect things instead of positioning themselves to EARN it.

My job is not on it's way to India, but even if it was - I'd make sure I stayed marketable enough to find something else.;)

CkG