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Actual good news - FISA (secret spying on Americans court) may not be reauthorized

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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
19,263
10,071
136
Let the domestic spying on the Biden campaign begin. I'm sure the FISA court will happily authorize it just like they did Crossfire Hurricane. After all we can't do without spying on citizens so we might as well make it count.
This post just reeks of poo flinging.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,130
13,070
136
Let the domestic spying on the Biden campaign begin. I'm sure the FISA court will happily authorize it just like they did Crossfire Hurricane. After all we can't do without spying on citizens so we might as well make it count.
I doubt Joe would mind a bit. He'd want the FBI to protect his campaign from hostile foreign influence. What a concept.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,128
18,900
136
Let the domestic spying on the Biden campaign begin. I'm sure the FISA court will happily authorize it just like they did Crossfire Hurricane. After all we can't do without spying on citizens so we might as well make it count.
Absolutely, if our intelligence services obtain similar information about the Biden campaign as they did about the Trump campaign which led to the opening of Crossfire Hurricane then they should absolutely start monitoring them.

After all we not only uncovered massive criminality in that campaign we also uncovered things like Trump's son, son in law, and campaign manager colluding with agents of a hostile foreign power to get illegal help in the election. That's bad!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,500
3,260
126
It’s activities are monitored by congress and such. Same as any other classified entity.

Again though, if your argument is that there aren’t enough checks on intelligence monitoring I agree with you! I’m trying to figure out how removing the FISA court makes this better.
I think you are doing a fine job arguing logically with someone who is in the grips of an ideological belief to which he reacts emotionally.
---------
The criminal, self centered egotistical mind seeks a number of things including anonymity, lack of regulation, and power. The criminal mind easily rationalizes these in the guise of libertarian philosophy. Such self interested people are always threatened by the fear somebody will control them because of the monstrous uses to which they would put such power if they had it.
 

iRONic

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2006
5,135
210
106
Let the domestic spying on the Biden campaign begin. I'm sure the FISA court will happily authorize it just like they did Crossfire Hurricane. After all we can't do without spying on citizens so we might as well make it count.
Your position and arguments were rational and well-stated right up to this post. Oh well...
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
7,287
2,000
136
I'd fully support that but will settle for returning to pre-1978 precedent where spying on citizens was presumptively unconstitutional. IMHO every single post 9/11 law authorizing domestic spying should be repealed by Congress. In the meantime I'll make due with the statute authorizing FISA being allowed to lapse and allowing any NSA employee who continues to spy on citizens to be fired and then prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for 4th Amendment violations.
I think this is a bit more complicated, but my understanding broadly jives with @fskimospy where warrantless wiretapping upheld as constitutional in the past pre-FISA and more specific authorizations e.g. through the Patriot Act would if anything become easier should FISA go away. No good. I'm with you on greater protections and oversight, but that isn't the way even if it sounds good hearing it. Congress can modify existing laws and pass new ones providing greater protection if they choose.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
19,263
10,071
136
Despite the angst in this thread its clear there is pretty broad agreement that the broad surveillance methods sought or already utilized by the NSA are very unpopular in regards to domestic communications and need to be explicitly prohibited going forward. We should embrace this common cause and push for this change.
 

iRONic

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2006
5,135
210
106

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
26,053
6,029
136
Let the domestic spying on the Biden campaign begin. I'm sure the FISA court will happily authorize it just like they did Crossfire Hurricane. After all we can't do without spying on citizens so we might as well make it count.
You must have us confused with conservatives that for some reason want their leaders to be able to get away with shady shit. You got a wrong number, hoss.
 

PlanetJosh

Golden Member
May 6, 2013
1,439
52
91
The thread is a mind twister. And with quoting or references to federal statutes and laws it would take me and probably most readers days, weeks to apply them to the posts or apply the posts to the statutes.
 

GodisanAtheist

Platinum Member
Nov 16, 2006
2,540
1,028
136
A major issue with the FISA court system is that it adds legitimacy to an illegitimate regieme of spycraft against the American people.

Over the entire history of the FISA court a grand total of 12 warrants out of roughly 34,000 warrants were ever rejected.

Which is understandable.

It's basically a court where only the prosecutor gets to make his case and the panel judges have to decide national security based on a very skewed set of facts.

Don't approve the warrant and we have another 9/11? Wouldn't want that.

The court itself is just one part of a larger spy apparatus that needs to be dismantled, in part or wholesale, because it is as a whole totally incompatible with American law/tradition/values and all the rest.
 
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1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,210
456
126
Reauthorize the court but specifically forbid any kind of mass surveillance or data mining of information without specific congressional authorization. Take those programs out of the black and force them to be discussed publicly.
No problem, just privatize the mass surveillance and data mining, this way the government can wash its hands of it when it goes wrong.


and of course if you are looking to make an omelette a few eggs have to be cracked along the way


but what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander apparently


and thanks to the fact that the democrat party has been corporatized while hiding under a social justice warrior facade and google leans left don't expect too much to happen even though we were warned many years ago about letting the technological elite hold us captive.

Eisenhower's farewell address

January 17, 1961.
The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocation, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.

Yet in holding scientific discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
19,263
10,071
136
No problem, just privatize the mass surveillance and data mining, this way the government can wash its hands of it when it goes wrong.


and of course if you are looking to make an omelette a few eggs have to be cracked along the way


but what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander apparently


and thanks to the fact that the democrat party has been corporatized while hiding under a social justice warrior facade and google leans left don't expect too much to happen even though we were warned many years ago about letting the technological elite hold us captive.

Eisenhower's farewell address

January 17, 1961.
So what should we do about it?
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
22,531
4,699
136
We need a Bill of Electronic Rights. Something that defines ownership and access to and penalties for misuse of personal data and communications. I’m pretty sure the EFF has proposals or frameworks ready if we can ever get beyond this current generation of lawmakers that still don’t know how to use e-mail.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
60,235
12,744
136
We need a Bill of Electronic Rights. Something that defines ownership and access to and penalties for misuse of personal data and communications. I’m pretty sure the EFF has proposals or frameworks ready if we can ever get beyond this current generation of lawmakers that still don’t know how to use e-mail.
Current lawmakers have learned the value of data mining and exploit it to the fullest allowed by the laws they wrote.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
7,287
2,000
136
I don't think Congress has any real will to change. The Republicans know ending FISA just makes it easier to spy in secret with no process based on prior court rulings and Patriot Act, etc. This is just grandstanding to give the impression they care about the privacy of their citizens. Real work on this requires other legislative action which could include ending FISA.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
15,243
3,474
136
Killing FISA or something FISA like, will just return things to the real bad old days of surveillance.

Keep pretending the world is not a dangerous space for democracy.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
103,527
18,084
136
OK, after the brainfuck that is today's thread, I have to come in here and give glenn1 some sort of props today, at least, because I am not 100% appalled by this thinking. because, OK, in some ways, sure.

....because the other thread is just so hilariously weird, I have to find some kind of balance somewhere, and this is a bit more....not-crazy as a jailhouse shitbard-reading.

so, :beer:, OP.
 
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Dec 10, 2005
20,503
1,826
126
Over the entire history of the FISA court a grand total of 12 warrants out of roughly 34,000 warrants were ever rejected.
Honestly, that's a very useless statistic. What's the rejection rate for regular warrants and how do we know that they're just not submitting warrants that don't have any merit?
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
22,531
4,699
136
Current lawmakers have learned the value of data mining and exploit it to the fullest allowed by the laws they wrote.
They didn’t write them. ALEC and CTIA did. They just took that free money to sign their names on those laws.
 

GodisanAtheist

Platinum Member
Nov 16, 2006
2,540
1,028
136
Honestly, that's a very useless statistic. What's the rejection rate for regular warrants and how do we know that they're just not submitting warrants that don't have any merit?
- Fuck.

You're right.

I looked into it and while there is unfortunately little research on the topic, general anecdotal evidence suggests that many/most warrant requests are granted.

I'm drunk.
 

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