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Actual good news - FISA (secret spying on Americans court) may not be reauthorized

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,136
18,910
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Reauthorize the court but specifically forbid any kind of mass surveillance or data mining of information without specific congressional authorization. Take those programs out of the black and force them to be discussed publicly.
Exactly, the NSA needs to be much more heavily regulated and has needed this for years. It is unclear to me why this is a FISA court problem and not an NSA problem though.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,388
1,013
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And your answer is because rape is bad we should get rid of the cops.

If you think that sort of surveillance is bad then the answer is to pass laws to abolish it, not get rid of the body that checks compliance with the law.
In this case the cops are the ones organizing and running the rape gangs. There isn't some casual group of ne'er do wells trolling Central Park looking for jogger victims, this is the federal government who is completely and 100% both sole proprietor and operator of the rape gang. There wouldn't be any rapes going on if the federal government stopped doing it, there are no "amateur rapists" out there conducting widespread surveillance of all American citizens like the NSA.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
25,080
9,946
136
So eliminate the FISA courts, how do you adjudicate the NSA violating the law? Can't go to regular court because they will claim national security
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,136
18,910
136
In this case the cops are the ones organizing and running the rape gangs. There isn't some casual group of ne'er do wells trolling Central Park looking for jogger victims, this is the federal government who is completely and 100% both sole proprietor and operator of the rape gang. There wouldn't be any rapes going on if the federal government stopped doing it, there are no "amateur rapists" out there conducting widespread surveillance of all American citizens like the NSA.
So again, how does abolishing the FISA court help this? Should be easy to answer.

I mean if the FISA court went away tomorrow do you think the NSA would say ‘I guess that’s it, pack it up, boys!’
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,388
1,013
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So again, how does abolishing the FISA court help this? Should be easy to answer.

I mean if the FISA court went away tomorrow do you think the NSA would say ‘I guess that’s it, pack it up, boys!’
They are a part of government so if they continue after their activities were no longer authorized by law I would hope you'd likewise see that as a problem.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,874
4,203
126
They are a part of government so if they continue after their activities were no longer authorized by law I would hope you'd likewise see that as a problem.
You will never know and get the authoritarian government you are asking for as perverse as that is. You let the McConnells and Trumps make deals that compromise Americans with no process that can work.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,136
18,910
136
They are a part of government so if they continue after their activities were no longer authorized by law I would hope you'd likewise see that as a problem.
If you think that by abolishing the body responsible for adjudicating if law enforcement is acting lawfully you're going to make law enforcement act more lawfully all I can say is LOL.

Is this your first day on this planet?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,388
1,013
126
If you think that by abolishing the body responsible for adjudicating if law enforcement is acting lawfully you're going to make law enforcement act more lawfully all I can say is LOL.

Is this your first day on this planet?
I see your position is basically "well I expect government to not act lawfully if I let the law lapse, so that's reason to pass the law."
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
25,080
9,946
136
Meanwhile Trump affiliated toadies are free to spy on citizens.

cough.....cough.....Project Veritas.....cough
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,136
18,910
136
I see your position is basically "well I expect government to not act lawfully if I let the law lapse, so that's reason to pass the law."
Yes, if you remove safeguards against government misconduct it makes government misconduct more likely. This is common sense.

If you're actually interested in curbing this activity by the NSA the way to do it is through passing a law prohibiting it instead of getting rid of the people who check to see if the law is being followed.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,388
1,013
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Yes, if you remove safeguards against government misconduct it makes government misconduct more likely. This is common sense.

If you're actually interested in curbing this activity by the NSA the way to do it is through passing a law prohibiting it instead of getting rid of the people who check to see if the law is being followed.
I'd fully support that but will settle for returning to pre-1978 precedent where spying on citizens was presumptively unconstitutional. IMHO every single post 9/11 law authorizing domestic spying should be repealed by Congress. In the meantime I'll make due with the statute authorizing FISA being allowed to lapse and allowing any NSA employee who continues to spy on citizens to be fired and then prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for 4th Amendment violations.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,136
18,910
136
I'd fully support that but will settle for returning to pre-1978 precedent where spying on citizens was presumptively unconstitutional. IMHO every single post 9/11 law authorizing domestic spying should be repealed by Congress. In the meantime I'll make due with the statute authorizing FISA being allowed to lapse and allowing any NSA employee who continues to spy on citizens to be fired and then prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for 4th Amendment violations.
lol, you might want to check on what the government was doing with regards to spying on citizens, pre-1978.

 
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thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
10,898
1,042
126
I'd fully support that but will settle for returning to pre-1978 precedent where spying on citizens was presumptively unconstitutional. IMHO every single post 9/11 law authorizing domestic spying should be repealed by Congress. In the meantime I'll make due with the statute authorizing FISA being allowed to lapse and allowing any NSA employee who continues to spy on citizens to be fired and then prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for 4th Amendment violations.
A man named J. Edgar Hoover would have something to say to counter the bolded statement.
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
22,532
4,699
136
You know who else would love to see us return to pre-9/11 laws (no more Patriot Act, no more FISA, no more money laundering controls on the banks?) Putin’s Russia and the diaspora of Russian organized crime.
 
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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,388
1,013
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lol, you might want to check on what the government was doing with regards to spying on citizens, pre-1978.

At the height of Project SHAMROCK, 150,000 messages were printed and analyzed by NSA personnel in a month.

As opposed to now where metadata for EVERY SINGLE communication from every single American is being collected. And if we use your number of 1,300 approved FISA warrants last year then you can be damn sure that way more than 150k messages/month were being analyzed. I'd take SHAMROCK over current situation every day of the week and twice on Sunday compared to now.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,136
18,910
136
At the height of Project SHAMROCK, 150,000 messages were printed and analyzed by NSA personnel in a month.

As opposed to now where metadata for EVERY SINGLE communication from every single American is being collected. And if we use your number of 1,300 approved FISA warrants last year then you can be damn sure that way more than 150k messages/month were being analyzed. I'd take SHAMROCK over current situation every day of the week and twice on Sunday compared to now.
So metadata now as opposed to the actual contents of it then, which is a vastly greater intrusion. Also, have you considered what PERCENTAGE of messages are intercepted under FISA warrants now as opposed to under Project SHAMROCK? That would seem to be the more important number.

Pre-1978 the president could basically order the interception of any communications he felt like with almost no oversight. Odd that for someone who cares about spying on Americans so much you're so excited to return to this.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
23,268
2,535
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Glenn: ‘Man, the NSA is spying on Americans in ways I don’t like!’

Me: let’s change the law so they can’t do that.

Glenn: No, lets abolish the only body that checks to see if they are following the law now.
Dude, he doesn't actually know how it works. It's pretty clear. It seems that he thinks FISA = spying.
 
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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,388
1,013
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So metadata now as opposed to the actual contents of it then, which is a vastly greater intrusion. Also, have you considered what PERCENTAGE of messages are intercepted under FISA warrants now as opposed to under Project SHAMROCK? That would seem to be the more important number.

Pre-1978 the president could basically order the interception of any communications he felt like with almost no oversight. Odd that for someone who cares about spying on Americans so much you're so excited to return to this.
The FISA court effectively isn't oversight. It's a blank check that has approved all but a handful of the applications it's received since inception. It's a ruse for the gullible like you to believe there's some limits or controls placed upon it.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,136
18,910
136
The FISA court effectively isn't oversight. It's a blank check that has approved all but a handful of the applications it's received since inception. It's a ruse for the gullible like you to believe there's some limits or controls placed upon it.
Sounds like a good reason to strengthen the FISA court then, just like I mentioned in post #4 in this thread, huh.

Glad to see you've come around to my criticism from that post though, haha.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,388
1,013
126
Sounds like a good reason to strengthen the FISA court then, just like I mentioned in post #4 in this thread, huh.

Glad to see you've come around to my criticism from that post though, haha.
No it sounds like a good reason to stop domestic spying altogether.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,136
18,910
136
No it sounds like a good reason to stop domestic spying altogether.
Yes, I'm sure if we abolish the FISA court the NSA will just throw up its hands and say 'well I guess we can't do that anymore!'.

One thing they definitely won't do under any circumstances is say that because Congress has abolished the court it established in 1978 to adjudicate this surveillance that Congress' intent is clear that such oversight is no longer necessary and they can do whatever they want. No sirree.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,388
1,013
126
Yes, I'm sure if we abolish the FISA court the NSA will just throw up its hands and say 'well I guess we can't do that anymore!'.

One thing they definitely won't do under any circumstances is say that because Congress has abolished the court it established in 1978 to adjudicate this surveillance that Congress' intent is clear that such oversight is no longer necessary and they can do whatever they want. No sirree.
If we're going to be under the surveillance state either way then I'd prefer remove the pretense and fig leaf. I refuse to support anything that gives legitimacy to widespread spying which FISA and the post 9/11 laws have most definitely done. Unlike you I'm under no delusion that FISA is providing any safeguards whatsoever and is a complete rubber stamp that's lied to with impunity by the FBI when convenient and is subject being weaponized to boot.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,136
18,910
136
If we're going to be under the surveillance state either way then I'd prefer remove the pretense and fig leaf. I refuse to support anything that gives legitimacy to widespread spying which FISA and the post 9/11 laws have most definitely done. Unlike you I'm under no delusion that FISA is providing any safeguards whatsoever and is a complete rubber stamp that's lied to with impunity by the FBI when convenient and is subject being weaponized to boot.
Oh okay then.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,388
1,013
126
Oh okay then.
Let the domestic spying on the Biden campaign begin. I'm sure the FISA court will happily authorize it just like they did Crossfire Hurricane. After all we can't do without spying on citizens so we might as well make it count.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,131
13,071
136
It's just the latest GOP attack on federal law enforcement, the usual Deep State fear mongering. The less de Gubmint knows about sleazy offshore dealings the more they like it.
 
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