active shooter in Aurora IL

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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Europe's smoking rates are so high (something ilke 700,00 bodies a year) compared to America that your tobacco deaths easily outnumber our gun+tobacco+alcohol deaths combined in America, yet you think you own some kind of moral high ground because you've mostly restricted the right to own firearms. <sigh>

then shoot yourself.
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
Today alone over 100 innocent people will die as victims of second hand smoke. They don't get a news story though, and the left doesn't care about those lives, just those that further their political position. No threads for those people, no white knight champion Democrat politicians talking about those people, no media coverage. A shooting though and the propaganda machine is self starting today.

The irony of this comment is that Democrats and 'the left' are the ones who pushed for and passed all the laws with regards to secondhand smoke in the workplace and other public places. While Republicans fought them on that every single step of the way.
And now we have a rabidly partisan Republican faulting the Democrats for not doing what they've already done, and the Republicans have done nothing about.
This is hilarious. You're not only on the wrong side of history, you're completely oblivious that history already happened.
 

dawp

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
11,345
2,705
136
Today alone over 100 innocent people will die as victims of second hand smoke. They don't get a news story though, and the left doesn't care about those lives, just those that further their political position. No threads for those people, no white knight champion Democrat politicians talking about those people, no media coverage. A shooting though and the propaganda machine is self starting today.
FUCK OFF
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,478
6,901
136
Sacrifices need to be made in order to protect the right to bear arms. There is no limit to the number of folks that get mass murdered by perps who were sane responsible gun owners until the very instant they weren't.

If only those folks who are so passionate about their need to bear arms are equally as passionate about finding ways to keep firearms out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them.

Alas, as things are, it looks as if it's simply not their problem until it becomes more difficult for them to acquire said objects of their desire.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,076
136
The irony of this comment is that Democrats and 'the left' are the ones who pushed for and passed all the laws with regards to secondhand smoke in the workplace and other public places. While Republicans fought them on that every single step of the way.
And now we have a rabidly partisan Republican faulting the Democrats for not doing what they've already done, and the Republicans have done nothing about.
This is hilarious. You're not only on the wrong side of history, you're completely oblivious that history already happened.
When Slow first arrived, in response to his position that no one cared about second hand smoke, I posted a massive pdf from the CDC detailing the history of the significant and concerted social and legislative action taken on tobacco over the history of the US. He refused to acknowledge to read it and continued his same argument repeatedly in every thread. At that point I knew he was just a troll and don't engage him anymore. I can understand why some do, just for giggles, but he's still just a troll.
 

Indus

Diamond Member
May 11, 2002
9,753
6,368
136
When Slow first arrived, in response to his position that no one cared about second hand smoke, I posted a massive pdf from the CDC detailing the history of the significant and concerted social and legislative action taken on tobacco over the history of the US. He refused to acknowledge to read it and continued his same argument repeatedly in every thread. At that point I knew he was just a troll and don't engage him anymore. I can understand why some do, just for giggles, but he's still just a troll.

Just like some people just refuse to read facts or give them space in their brain.. their world cannot and will not comprehend facts.
 
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dawp

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
11,345
2,705
136
When Slow first arrived, in response to his position that no one cared about second hand smoke, I posted a massive pdf from the CDC detailing the history of the significant and concerted social and legislative action taken on tobacco over the history of the US. He refused to acknowledge to read it and continued his same argument repeatedly in every thread. At that point I knew he was just a troll and don't engage him anymore. I can understand why some do, just for giggles, but he's still just a troll.
I think the best response to slow is my last one in this thread a couple of post above yours, just tell him to fuck off.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
12,974
7,891
136
When Slow first arrived, in response to his position that no one cared about second hand smoke, I posted a massive pdf from the CDC detailing the history of the significant and concerted social and legislative action taken on tobacco over the history of the US. He refused to acknowledge to read it and continued his same argument repeatedly in every thread. At that point I knew he was just a troll and don't engage him anymore. I can understand why some do, just for giggles, but he's still just a troll.

He also continues to ignore the question of 'years of life lost', and the fact that the passive-smoking death figures are far less robust and well-established than the gun homicide figures. He is absolutely a troll. A particularly monomaniacal and bot-like one at that.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,076
136
He also continues to ignore the question of 'years of life lost', and the fact that the passive-smoking death figures are far less robust and well-established than the gun homicide figures. He is absolutely a troll. A particularly monomaniacal and bot-like one at that.
Yep. I argued with him for a bit when he first showed up, but he thoroughly demonstrated his lack of desire to engage in logical fact based discussion. He's intellectually dishonest. He nothing but projection. He's all emotion and ignorance. Or more likely, just a troll.
 
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Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,025
2,593
136
A national emergency should be declared about US gun deaths today. There are entire caravans of gun owners that descend to US gun shows and threaten us all. Our wise and perfect president should use his presidential powers to declare an emergency today to put an end to the endless slaughter that is going on in our US cities (his words not mine) because he and he alone can fix it.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
A national emergency should be declared about US gun deaths today. There are entire caravans of gun owners that descend to US gun shows and threaten us all. Our wise and perfect president should use his presidential powers to declare an emergency today to put an end to the endless slaughter that is going on in our US cities (his words not mine) because he and he alone can fix it.


Guns do comparatively little damage to society when compared to some other liberties. So, no.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
The number of Americans killed by guns in 2017 : 39773


The vast majority of those were suicides. If we include self harm, as you have, then for comparison alcohol kills a total of ~88,000/yr and tobacco kills ~500,000/yr (~700,000/yr in Europe... remember that one next time smug liberal from across the pond complains about gun deaths in America). So as I said, guns do comparatively less harm to society than other liberties that no one is looking to further restrict.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
The vast majority of those were suicides. If we include self harm, as you have, then for comparison alcohol kills a total of ~88,000/yr and tobacco kills ~500,000/yr (~700,000/yr in Europe... remember that one next time smug liberal from across the pond complains about gun deaths in America). So as I said, guns do comparatively less harm to society than other liberties that no one is looking to further restrict.

Well, that creates a national emergency. Let's stop smoking and take guns. Presidents can do that if they believe it's expedient to their position.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Well, that creates a national emergency. Let's stop smoking and take guns. Presidents can do that if they believe it's expedient to their position.


Taking individual liberties away vs. allocating a drop in the bucket worth of funds to help seal a leaky border where human trafficking occurs are very different things.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
Taking individual liberties away vs. allocating a drop in the bucket worth of funds to help seal a leaky border where human trafficking occurs are very different things.

As usual, you choose to frame the subject incorrectly because it dooms you otherwise.

So there will likely be court challenges. I say they will be based and considered on Constitutional issues involving the proper roles of the individual branches.

Or

It will (by your statements the logical defense) be about a drop in the bucket funding of a leaky border.

Can we have bets on if I or he is correct?
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
12,974
7,891
136
Europe's smoking rates are so high (something ilke 700,00 bodies a year) compared to America that your tobacco deaths easily outnumber our gun+tobacco+alcohol deaths combined in America, yet you think you own some kind of moral high ground because you've mostly restricted the right to own firearms. <sigh>


It's obvious you aren't even pretending to be intellectually honest. I guess because this is about fooling yourself, not anyone else. You start with your 'conclusion' and just throw any old crap at the wall to try and bolster it in your own mind.

Leaving aside the massive complication of how one determines a death to be 'smoking-related' (which I suspect is likely decided differently in different health systems, hence, like comparisons of 'violent crime' it's tricky to compare between countries), and furthermore ignoring the critical fact that the EU is not a 'country' and in fact smoking rates (and the laws, rules, and taxes on smoking) vary hugely between EU countries, you are ignoring the different population sizes of the US and EU!

EU smoking deaths 700,000 p/a, population 512,647,966, so deaths per capita 0.00137
US smoking deaths 480,000 p/a, population 328,863,150, so deaths per capita 0.00146

So the actual death rates per capita are close, with the US slightly worse.

That actually really surprises me, because the proportion of smokers is higher in most European countries than the US (14% in US, EU ranging from 11% to 38% with an average of 26%). So either there are indeed differences in what gets counted as a smoking-related-death, or there's something about the nature of smoking in the US that makes it unusually lethal (maybe those who do smoke, smoke more? Maybe they get worse health-care?)

If you are going to compare stats between things that aren't even countries, and doing so while ignoring population figures, can I compare the number of murders in, say, Cornwall with the number in the entire US (in absolute, non-population-proportional, terms) and hence conclude the US is a nightmarish land of mass killings?
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,382
7,445
136
Individuals have a right to smoke tobacco, there are some restrictions in where you can do that, but millions of people enjoy this right despite the dire consequences to their health. In addition that liberty carries a cost to society in the form of second and third hand smoke exposure that kills tens of thousands of innocent people a year, many more than guns do. No one on the left or right is further limiting that, no one cares. This compared with guns makes it hard argument to keep further limiting our constitutionally protected rights to firearms, considering they do much less harm than other freedoms. I know you get the point but refuse to acknowledge it. Oh well. Emotions > logic to the left.

Friend, you have a point!

Let's settle this. Guns shall be banned everywhere we are not allowed to smoke.
Does that satisfy you?