merlocka, that was a well phrased though out answer. Basically, when I said in the article that we would be doing backflips with Live over AC'97 I then posted it so people could see that, despite the difference being that broad for the live, audigy, and mia, it was FANTASTICALLY huge for integrated audio of all flavors except, possibly, nforce. The idea of linking it was so that you could see what makes a soundcard good and how far off AC'97 is. It's a good idea to put some data in there though. Tell you what, in an hour, I'm going to go to mudshark studios where the review was done and do some benchmarking on AC'97 and C-media audio. For the sake of consistency I'll have to re-do the audigy, live, and mia on the two boards with integrated so it will take me at least until tomorrow to do this. I'll let you know when it's done.
So, how much of a FPS hit does the MSI MS-6366 take compared to your Hercules card?
(Btw, the results of one motherboard's sound is not necessarily an accurate sample of all motherboards.)
The idea of linking it was so that you could see what makes a soundcard good and how far off AC'97 is
Yah. You mentioned that.
It's a good idea to put some data in there though
That would be one way to back up claims of 50-58dB of DC offset.
Tell you what, in an hour, I'm going to go to mudshark studios where the review was done and do some benchmarking on AC'97 and C-media audio
I'll tell you what, if you post the results I'll read them
and I'll try to not obviously misunderstand your explanation again...
Yah. You mentioned that.
It's a good idea to put some data in there though
That would be one way to back up claims of 50-58dB of DC offset.
Tell you what, in an hour, I'm going to go to mudshark studios where the review was done and do some benchmarking on AC'97 and C-media audio
I'll tell you what, if you post the results I'll read them
and I'll try to not obviously misunderstand your explanation again...
"(Btw, the results of one motherboard's sound is not necessarily an accurate sample of all motherboards.)"
i COMPLETELY agree.
that's why i said mine
ok, with ac 97(and the ALS4000 i bought) enabled on a cel 466 (no oc) with a gf3ti200, 53.1 fps. turn it off in dev mgr (both of them on sep occasions), 96.3 fps.
on dell cel 800 w/v33000 pci and sb live gamer, 86.2 fps. disabled, 121.3 fps
on k6-2 350 w/4000xt soyo behm with sb 16 isa, 27.3. disabled, 49.4 (i think once or twice i got 56.4, but i got disgusted and quit)
edit: btw, default fastest.
i COMPLETELY agree.
that's why i said mine
ok, with ac 97(and the ALS4000 i bought
) enabled on a cel 466 (no oc) with a gf3ti200, 53.1 fps. turn it off in dev mgr (both of them on sep occasions), 96.3 fps.on dell cel 800 w/v33000 pci and sb live gamer, 86.2 fps. disabled, 121.3 fps
on k6-2 350 w/4000xt soyo behm with sb 16 isa, 27.3. disabled, 49.4 (i think once or twice i got 56.4, but i got disgusted and quit
) edit: btw, default fastest.
Okay. I did some quick tests with Jason (owner, Mudshark) and in either board the audigy and live performed the same as before because it's a measurement of the hardware ADC and won't change in in any board. There was no need to re-measure the Mia. I fixed all sorts of typos in the article and added all sorts of info on integrated audio as it really helps the article. I'm glad this came up because it helped to make it better. Anyway, a blanket statement like "all c-media audio sucks" is obviously false. In fact, the CMI8738 has nothing to do with sound quality. Oh it's the sound chip, of course, but it's the DAC, ADC which is attached to it that matters. In the case of AC'97 audio you're dealing with a hardware CODEC which is a bit different. Since AC'97 IS itself a CODEC that would imply that all boards using AC'97 will suffer from exactly the same test results. Exactly the same codec: exactly the same results. (remember the codec is a combined DAC and ADC on one chip) The statement that all AC'97 "sucks" is correct in the sense that it will produce these results each time. whether these results suck or not is subjective. As you can see the ASUS board performed MUCH MUCH better than the MSI board. Obviously ASUS believes in using a SUPERIOR quality CODEC. Maybe that's one of the reasons their boards are more expensive. In bot the C-media and ac'97's case though, they did not produce anywhere near the quality of recording or playback of any of the other cards. Of course, a sound studio is a find place to test this but some people won't notice the muddiness and tinniness (highs and lows) in their homes. It doesn't produce good sound using senheisers though which anyone can get at home. Well, read the review again, you know where it is The numbers speak for themselves. Oh, there was noise at much lower volume levels as indicated by the second chart.
The numbers speak for themselves. Oh, there was noise at much lower volume levels as indicated by the second chart. 
The C-media 8738 chip is being included in many motherboards these days. This is quite simply because they are dirt cheap, easy to impliment into a motherboard, and have plent of features to stick of the motherboard box to attract customers.
The 8738 chip is not a AC97 codec. It can be compared more to the Creative Vibra 128's that were intergrated into some Gigabyte motherboards. The C-media I think intergrates a AC97 codec and DAC into the chip so it is a "one chip" solution (at least this is what I have heard).
The 8738 is better in terms of a AC97 codec becasue it can off load more from the CPU (although it is still a HSP). This difference in terms of performance (percentage of CPU used) will deminish with higher CPU models. Eg. I tested my Aztech PCI368DSP (uses ThunderBird 128....same as PSC702 & 704) in ZiffDavis Audio WinBench 99. With a K6-2 300, I was getting a average of around 12% utilisation. With a Duron 800, I was getting around 4% utilisation.
On the note of cost, the C-media 9738 is even cheaper, but still offers all the nice features to put on a box. A new version has just been released that supports 6 channel audio. The new 6 channel chip with SPDIF in/out support
The C-media chips may be slightly noiser, but the average user is no audiophile, and with the speakers they have, will not notice the difference. They will appreciate the Sensaura 3D though, as well as the ability to get coax and optical SPDIF on the 8738.
Cheers
The 8738 chip is not a AC97 codec. It can be compared more to the Creative Vibra 128's that were intergrated into some Gigabyte motherboards. The C-media I think intergrates a AC97 codec and DAC into the chip so it is a "one chip" solution (at least this is what I have heard).
The 8738 is better in terms of a AC97 codec becasue it can off load more from the CPU (although it is still a HSP). This difference in terms of performance (percentage of CPU used) will deminish with higher CPU models. Eg. I tested my Aztech PCI368DSP (uses ThunderBird 128....same as PSC702 & 704) in ZiffDavis Audio WinBench 99. With a K6-2 300, I was getting a average of around 12% utilisation. With a Duron 800, I was getting around 4% utilisation.
On the note of cost, the C-media 9738 is even cheaper, but still offers all the nice features to put on a box. A new version has just been released that supports 6 channel audio. The new 6 channel chip with SPDIF in/out support
The C-media chips may be slightly noiser, but the average user is no audiophile, and with the speakers they have, will not notice the difference. They will appreciate the Sensaura 3D though, as well as the ability to get coax and optical SPDIF on the 8738.
Cheers
Mem
Lifer
- Apr 23, 2000
- 21,476
- 13
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The truth is it`s ok for some people while for others it sucks,my friend likes it a lot,but I don`t,also onboard sound quality is different for many motherboards being you have different types of onboard sound chips etc,so the conclusion is we are all right & wrong ,well it`s down to your ears really .
.Eactly. If you have an actual AC'97 codec you will have the results listed no matter what board you have. However, if you have, for example a C-media chip such as the ones found in low end hercules cards the sound quality is better.
If you have to read an article to figure out which sounds better .. you're not listening hard enough.
Originally posted by: Jeff7
If you want your computer to just go "bing" or "dunt," and maybe play some MP3 music, then you're fine. Anything else, get a real soundcard.
And then you're telling people to read it. I on the other hand would just listen to an AC97 and then listen to my Soundblaster and let my OWN damn ears decide what is better for me. Therefore, I do not have to read no article. Don't bash me over the head with your audiophilic attitude.
Is that a word? root: audiophile
Umm... WTF are you talking about? Seriously, your sarcasm is weak.
See ya later, I didn't come here to flame, apologies if you take everything so personally.
If you want your computer to just go "bing" or "dunt," and maybe play some MP3 music, then you're fine. Anything else, get a real soundcard.
I never disagreed with you, I simply agree with the above statement and not everyone cares as much as you about 50db offsets or whatever.
See ya later, I didn't come here to flame, apologies if you take everything so personally.
If you want your computer to just go "bing" or "dunt," and maybe play some MP3 music, then you're fine. Anything else, get a real soundcard.
I never disagreed with you, I simply agree with the above statement and not everyone cares as much as you about 50db offsets or whatever.
Yes, that's correct. Some of those boards use the C-media codec while others use the AC'97 and so on. But all boards using the same codec will produce the same results (at least in terms of DAC-ADC quality) so for the purposes of this discussion, AC]97 codec in particular, they're all the same.
From second link "What's interesting to note here is that implementation as well as the specific codec itself greatly control the quality of the output. For example, the ABIT AT7 and the EPoX 8K3A+ use the same ALC650 codec yet they have dramatically different output characteristics."
That's a good point. For FPS performance I would imagine that the latency and whatnot-the way the board is designed would make a big difference. As far as the audio quality goes they're talking about stereo crosstalk etc which is between the codec and the connector on the back. The quality of the connector component would have to be determined by the motherboard manufacturer.
That's a good point. For FPS performance I would imagine that the latency and whatnot-the way the board is designed would make a big difference. As far as the audio quality goes they're talking about stereo crosstalk etc which is between the codec and the connector on the back. The quality of the connector component would have to be determined by the motherboard manufacturer.
Most people i know have don't have decent speakers anyway.
AC97 really varies, my VIA KT133A is really terrible, a lot of crackles.
But the Supermicro P3DRE I use is perfectly fine.
I think generally the speakers matter more when the sound card is fairly decent.
AC97 really varies, my VIA KT133A is really terrible, a lot of crackles.
But the Supermicro P3DRE I use is perfectly fine.
I think generally the speakers matter more when the sound card is fairly decent.
Well, I'd like to re-itterate my earlier statement and proclaim loudly that AC97 is suck.
But on a more serious note,
I wasn't aware that there were differences in the AC97 audio from board to board.
Every board i've worked with that has had it implemented, has been either Via or SiS; that's including the boards not owned by me.
They all say on the datasheet - 'Onboard AC 97 audio'
In the system Bios, you have the option to enable/disable the 'Onboard audio' and the 'AC97 CODEC' seperately.
I assume it isn't possible to disable the CODEC and still have the sound funtional.
So, to re-phrase, every Via or SiS AC97 solution that I have had the misfortune to hear, has been absolute cr4p.
I must admit, my colleage at work was trying to convince me for a while to buy an SBlive.
I didn't see the need - as I had onboard sound that wasn't bothering me.
Like I said in the last post (I think), after a week of using a borrowed SBlive, when I went back to the AC97 to say I could hear a difference would be an understatement.
So are we saying that only Audiophiles need better than onboard sound?
Now I dont consider myself an audiophile - I dont have 7.1 or even 5.1, I run a stereo setup,
using a 200w jensen pre-amp, connected to 2x 400w alpine V-power car-stereo amps, one driving 4x pioneer spkrs, RMS 120w/60w/40w (8" 'sub' 6" mids, and 3" wormsilk tweeters) The other 400w V-power is driving an alpine S-12 sub w/ custom box.
All powered by a benchtop 2-12v 15 amp PSU, hooked to a 550CCA car battery acting as a capacitor.
(how on earth it can supply 15 amps on a 10-amp home wiring circuit is beyond me, and it doesn't use a 15-amp cord with the oversize earth, so I think that's a bit of BS. But I havent been able to trip it yet - even when I didn't have the battery in the circuit) If anyone feels like mentioning the risk of explosion, dont.
It'll trip if the battery reaches the same level as the PSU - which is on 12v.
If the battery runs below 10v the amp will turn off automatically, at which point my 12v signal taken from the remote-on connector of the jensen amp (which is looped to the 12v input) disappears, signalling a nifty little circuit made for me by a sparky to connect the 2 pins on the PSU to reset the circuit breaker.
Henceforth once every few hours I loose sound for about 2-3 seconds.
Now as far as hardcore gaming is concerned, there's better setups.
For loud, obnoxious, ball-tearing bass guitar distortion - as my music tends to be, I dont think I could do a whole lot better.
As im sure you can tell, ~600w amplification of 'almost unnoticable interference' can be somewhat annoying.
Here's my advice;
Got amplified speakers that were made by someone more reputable than 'wang chung corp'? listen to at least 1 mp3 per day?
Borrow someone's SBLive or similar, try it, and make up your own mind.
I did
But on a more serious note,
I wasn't aware that there were differences in the AC97 audio from board to board.
Every board i've worked with that has had it implemented, has been either Via or SiS; that's including the boards not owned by me.
They all say on the datasheet - 'Onboard AC 97 audio'
In the system Bios, you have the option to enable/disable the 'Onboard audio' and the 'AC97 CODEC' seperately.
I assume it isn't possible to disable the CODEC and still have the sound funtional.
So, to re-phrase, every Via or SiS AC97 solution that I have had the misfortune to hear, has been absolute cr4p.
I must admit, my colleage at work was trying to convince me for a while to buy an SBlive.
I didn't see the need - as I had onboard sound that wasn't bothering me.
Like I said in the last post (I think), after a week of using a borrowed SBlive, when I went back to the AC97 to say I could hear a difference would be an understatement.
So are we saying that only Audiophiles need better than onboard sound?
Now I dont consider myself an audiophile - I dont have 7.1 or even 5.1, I run a stereo setup,
using a 200w jensen pre-amp, connected to 2x 400w alpine V-power car-stereo amps, one driving 4x pioneer spkrs, RMS 120w/60w/40w (8" 'sub' 6" mids, and 3" wormsilk tweeters) The other 400w V-power is driving an alpine S-12 sub w/ custom box.
All powered by a benchtop 2-12v 15 amp PSU, hooked to a 550CCA car battery acting as a capacitor.
(how on earth it can supply 15 amps on a 10-amp home wiring circuit is beyond me, and it doesn't use a 15-amp cord with the oversize earth, so I think that's a bit of BS. But I havent been able to trip it yet - even when I didn't have the battery in the circuit) If anyone feels like mentioning the risk of explosion, dont.
It'll trip if the battery reaches the same level as the PSU - which is on 12v.
If the battery runs below 10v the amp will turn off automatically, at which point my 12v signal taken from the remote-on connector of the jensen amp (which is looped to the 12v input) disappears, signalling a nifty little circuit made for me by a sparky to connect the 2 pins on the PSU to reset the circuit breaker.
Henceforth once every few hours I loose sound for about 2-3 seconds.
Now as far as hardcore gaming is concerned, there's better setups.
For loud, obnoxious, ball-tearing bass guitar distortion - as my music tends to be, I dont think I could do a whole lot better.
As im sure you can tell, ~600w amplification of 'almost unnoticable interference' can be somewhat annoying.
Here's my advice;
Got amplified speakers that were made by someone more reputable than 'wang chung corp'? listen to at least 1 mp3 per day?
Borrow someone's SBLive or similar, try it, and make up your own mind.
I did
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