AC has a freon leak....

Nov 8, 2012
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So our home is approx 7 years old. Came with everything builder's grade. So far I have had to replace the capacitor of the AC unit once. Now it looks like I'm getting a freon leak.

From what the A/C repairman said, he is indicating that it is LIKELY that the copper coils are likely cracking due to it being standard shit builder's grade. Indicates that it is very likely the case (in his experience), though it could other things. There is no indication the freon is leaking outside near the unit. From his advice it would cost ~$3000 to repair the coils and such with an all-day kind of repair. Sounds to me like I need to shell out $4,000 - $5,000 for a brand new unit.

Anyone have any experience here with freon leaks that can chime in? I'm in my first home, so most of this is overall new to me.

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cbrunny

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2007
6,791
406
126
My last house we spent a bit extra and got a bigger unit than we needed. My current place we have a builders-grade energy hog. The cost difference on the same size house is ~$50/mo. Get the bigger unit and call it a day.
 

Nashemon

Senior member
Jun 14, 2012
889
86
91
I got the same advice from the A/C tech that refilled the freon in mine. It's the 2nd time in 3 years he had to come out. So, the first fillup lasted 3 years, which I consider the $150 I spent to fill it a good investment. If it's a small leak expect the freon to last at least a year or two, and don't worry about replacing it immediately if you're worried about the cost right now. I plan on moving in about two years, so I have every intention of just refilling it right before I move and leaving it up to the next home owner to replace it if they want.
 

PottedMeat

Lifer
Apr 17, 2002
12,363
475
126
did he hook gauges up to it? was the 'cracking due to builders grade' something he brought up?
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,842
4,785
146
did he hook gauges up to it? was the 'cracking due to builders grade' something he brought up?

He did hook up guages to it and showed me the numbers... not that they mean anything to me. He would say something to the effect of "This number should be right around 10" and it was around 6 or so.

I asked what are the common types of leaks, and the cracking of copper coils is one of the things he mentioned - No particular order and no heavy emphasis on either. I was the one that mentioned it was likely builders grade crap and he was explaining to me that is often a culprit of the cracking coils.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,973
6,334
136
So did he fill it? If so, I'd wait to see just how bad the leak is.

Our last obummer incentivized unit had a leak from the factory....WTH? To make them more efficient, they make the coils thinner which leads to...leaks. That was what I was told anyway.
 

FerrelGeek

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2009
4,669
266
126
Get a second opinion and check reviews on local HVAC contractors. These guys are notorious for trying to rip you off. And like what has been said, just fill it and see how long it lasts.
 

local

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2011
1,851
515
136
Yay, something I know something about! Firstly, yes leaks in the coils is very common. As highland said the metal is very thin in the coil to increase the efficiency of the system. Second, it sounds like he never actually identified the leak. I know from personal experience it isn't always easy to find a leak but until you know where exactly it is located you cannot estimate how much it will take to fix. If the leak is in the tube bends of the coil, most likely if it is the inside coil, then it can be a pretty quick patch and done. But if the leak is in the middle of the coil then it can be a gamble as you need to cut away the fins in the area to expose the tubing with the possibility that the leak cannot be repaired. Where I work we do commercial and industrial HVAC service and we will not even attempt to repair a leak inside the fins, it just isn't worth trying. Residential service techs are much more likely to attempt the repair, and may even have a decent success rate, but their first job is to sell you new equipment.

$3,000 to repair a leak in a coil is insane. Assuming it is a repairable leak we would charge someone around $1,300, and that is only if they needed a hard quote. That would include 8 hrs labor, refrigerant and a filter. If someone is telling you it would be $3,000 then the next thing they will say is that they need to replace the unit. But I'm guessing that you have an R22 system which isn't sold anymore, thanks obama, and they would have to install a whole new system, condenser and fan coil.

My suggestion is to find a local one man company. Forget any large service companies as their job is to sell equipment not to fix your problem. The guy in a truck as we call them can be happy making $800 in a day to do a simple repair instead of trying to sell you on a whole new system.

It is entirely possible you have a freak oddball leak. Meaning it is not in a usual place and/or very hard to detect. I had a cracked nut on my unit last year that took several hours and multiple technicians to find as it was only detectable when the unit was full of refrigerant and running. The time spend finding the leak can add up. You may be able to do some self investigation and try to take a look at your coil for oil residue. The oil will come out with the refrigerant but it doesn't evaporate and will be a dead giveaway that you have a leak.

Others have said to have it filled and see how fast it leaks out. You can do that, and I personally would but I can get the refrigerant at cost ~$15/lb for R22, but if it is a fast leak than a) you wasted money and b) if it leaks fast enough then by law they have to disable your unit. "Fast enough" basically means if it would be empty in the next two weeks you must disable the unit. Residential prices for refrigerant are stupid expensive I have heard it going as high as $100/lb which given the cost above makes a nice bit of profit. Your best bet is to pressurize the system with nitrogen and listen for the leak. Nitrogen is cheap, very cheap.

I honestly cannot tell you why the residential HVAC market gouges customers so badly.

Project Manager/Estimator
HVAC & Plumbing Service

TL;DR
Find a different service guy preferably self employed.
Either visually locate leak or do a pressure test with nitrogen.
Hoplefully find a repairable leak and get it fixed for less than $3,000.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,973
6,334
136
I honestly cannot tell you why the residential HVAC market gouges customers so badly.
Here, a non hvac licensed person can't even get a price on a unit from a supply house so the installers can happily screw the customer if they want.
 

local

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2011
1,851
515
136
Here, a non hvac licensed person can't even get a price on a unit from a supply house so the installers can happily screw the customer if they want.

Most office managers can't either. Average standard efficiency residential split systems cost less than $2k but if you want a super high efficiency heat pump you are going to pay for it. Gas heat also adds a significant amount. Rule of thumb for a new install is about $3k per ton, replacements go for around half that depending on the modifications required.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,842
4,785
146
So did he fill it? If so, I'd wait to see just how bad the leak is.

That's exactly what I did - and what I figured. If it leaks enough for me to notice within a month, I'll know it's a serious issue. If we don't notice it till next year then it's probably not bad enough.

If it does come back soon, I'll shell out the $130 or whatever to search for the actual leak before presuming.

Considering it's a shit A/C that is builders grade though, I have to naturally presume the worst.... And if it's the coils it sounds like my best option is to simply replace the unit sadly.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,842
4,785
146
Yay, something I know something about! Firstly, yes leaks in the coils is very common. As highland said the metal is very thin in the coil to increase the efficiency of the system. Second, it sounds like he never actually identified the leak. I know from personal experience it isn't always easy to find a leak but until you know where exactly it is located you cannot estimate how much it will take to fix. If the leak is in the tube bends of the coil, most likely if it is the inside coil, then it can be a pretty quick patch and done. But if the leak is in the middle of the coil then it can be a gamble as you need to cut away the fins in the area to expose the tubing with the possibility that the leak cannot be repaired. Where I work we do commercial and industrial HVAC service and we will not even attempt to repair a leak inside the fins, it just isn't worth trying. Residential service techs are much more likely to attempt the repair, and may even have a decent success rate, but their first job is to sell you new equipment.

$3,000 to repair a leak in a coil is insane. Assuming it is a repairable leak we would charge someone around $1,300, and that is only if they needed a hard quote. That would include 8 hrs labor, refrigerant and a filter. If someone is telling you it would be $3,000 then the next thing they will say is that they need to replace the unit. But I'm guessing that you have an R22 system which isn't sold anymore, thanks obama, and they would have to install a whole new system, condenser and fan coil.

My suggestion is to find a local one man company. Forget any large service companies as their job is to sell equipment not to fix your problem. The guy in a truck as we call them can be happy making $800 in a day to do a simple repair instead of trying to sell you on a whole new system.

It is entirely possible you have a freak oddball leak. Meaning it is not in a usual place and/or very hard to detect. I had a cracked nut on my unit last year that took several hours and multiple technicians to find as it was only detectable when the unit was full of refrigerant and running. The time spend finding the leak can add up. You may be able to do some self investigation and try to take a look at your coil for oil residue. The oil will come out with the refrigerant but it doesn't evaporate and will be a dead giveaway that you have a leak.

Others have said to have it filled and see how fast it leaks out. You can do that, and I personally would but I can get the refrigerant at cost ~$15/lb for R22, but if it is a fast leak than a) you wasted money and b) if it leaks fast enough then by law they have to disable your unit. "Fast enough" basically means if it would be empty in the next two weeks you must disable the unit. Residential prices for refrigerant are stupid expensive I have heard it going as high as $100/lb which given the cost above makes a nice bit of profit. Your best bet is to pressurize the system with nitrogen and listen for the leak. Nitrogen is cheap, very cheap.

I honestly cannot tell you why the residential HVAC market gouges customers so badly.

Project Manager/Estimator
HVAC & Plumbing Service

TL;DR
Find a different service guy preferably self employed.
Either visually locate leak or do a pressure test with nitrogen.
Hoplefully find a repairable leak and get it fixed for less than $3,000.

Thanks for all the advice. If this issue crops up again, I'll try to find someone that isn't part of a large repair company.

Do you have any tips on how to find them? Usually I go to Angies List and look at reviews of a company first, but I don't have the slightest clue of how to find a lone HVAC tech?
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
22,100
4,886
136
I got the same advice from the A/C tech that refilled the freon in mine. It's the 2nd time in 3 years he had to come out. So, the first fillup lasted 3 years, which I consider the $150 I spent to fill it a good investment. If it's a small leak expect the freon to last at least a year or two, and don't worry about replacing it immediately if you're worried about the cost right now. I plan on moving in about two years, so I have every intention of just refilling it right before I move and leaving it up to the next home owner to replace it if they want.

Are you going to tell them about it or just be an @SS and let them find it on their own?
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
22,100
4,886
136
If it is a crap AC Unit and you are planning on staying in the house a while I would just go ahead and replace it as it is only going to continue to give you trouble. And then you will have to replace it after spending hundreds trying to keep it running.
 

TheBigEarl

Member
May 23, 2013
28
1
36
Sounds like your getting typical HVAC runaround trying to push you into getting new equipment. Not to say that you don't need new equipment, but this tech isn't even trying to find a problem. It's just the ole "well something mysterious is wrong, its cheaper to just replace it" routine.

Check for leaks, top up the refrigerant, and see what happens. A decent repairman should have a refrigerant detector that can find a major leak quickly by "sniffing" for the leaking gas. A/C aren't going to stay full forever even if they have no serious leaks, its just what high pressure gas systems do over time. You might fill it and it stay running for several more years with no other input. If your cooling season is already about over you might just wait till next year since if its a fast leak you won't get any use out of a fill before its gone again.

If you do have a significant leak that requires big repair, you'll have to evaluate the cost of the repair vs. replacement. Get quotes from multiple people, and make sure they know they are bidding on the job. They are notorious for shooting big numbers hoping people won't bother to shop around and they can make big bucks on a simple job. Unless you live in a extreme climate area, this is the perfect time to have A/C work done since its almost the slow season in between summer cooling and winter heating, and they will be low on work and should be lowering costs to keep busy.