Abstinence programs: lessons in futility?

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Riprorin

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Apr 25, 2000
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I think that kids will probably figure it out on their own at some point.

I survived high school without having sex or masturbating, and I don't feel any worse off for it. I can't imagine having sex at 15 - 16. There's no way I was ready for it.

My HS experience may have been atypical, even for the time.

I went to Catholic HS with about 1,400 students composed of city and middle-class suburban kids. There were about 350 students in my class. Everyone got along pretty well and there weren't really any cliques. The troublemakers and kids that did like it there were thrown our or left within the first couple of years. All of my friends came from stable, two-parent homes where dad worked and mom stayed at home.

I'd have to say that HS and my last two years of college were probably the happiest periods of my life and I wasn't "getting any".

 

imported_tss4

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: Riprorin

I'd have to say that HS and my last two years of college were probably the happiest periods of my life.

That's kind of sad. If I may ask, when did you get married? It seems unfair to compare the ability of one generation to wait compared to the present generation when the average age of marriage is so much later in life. (In other words, we'd have to wait much longer).
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: Riprorin
I think that kids will probably figure it out on their own at some point.

I survived high school without having sex or masturbating, and I don't feel any worse off for it. I can't imagine having sex at 15 - 16. There's no way I was ready for it.
If you caught one of your kids masturbaiting wopuld yuou scold them and tell them that they are commiting a sin or are being immoral?
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
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One of the problems with our educational system is that we hold kids to such a low standard. If you tell them that it's impossible to have any self-discipline, they probably won't.
I dont think you can blame the failure of the abstinence policy on the educators. It is still up to the individuals parents to reinforce and enforce the policy. It is your job as the parent to discipline your children and ensure they follow your rules, thus instilling self discipline as a higher standard in their lives.

speaking of which, what's your feeling on teaching masturbation in schools as an alternative to sex?
I would be highly in favor of teaching masterbation to students to promote abstinence.


It wasn't like that at my high school 25 years ago. My friends and I hardly even talked about sex.
just becasue it was like that 25 years ago, does not mean you can ignore the fact the kids are exposed to sex every day of their lives now. Thus creating different circumstances to deal with requiring a different approach.


According to certain P&N folks they feel it is possible to shut down the natural instincts, amazing they must not be human.
not saying you can shut them off. But they are possible to control. I find it odd that you guys believe there is no longer any value in giving your virginity to your marriage partner. You make it sound as if everyone should experience sex during their highschool & college years, and there's something wrong with you if you dont.


I've merely provided an obviously ludicrous behavior - pledging virginity for life - to point out that selectively reporting only the positive outcomes (no STD, no unwanted pregnancies) of that absurd pledge leads to gross distortion, since there are also unreported negative outcomes (no family or children).
I wasnt disagreeing with you on this. What I was disagreeing with you is that items like
no family, no children, less socially engaged, less experimental
Are subjective and not as equally testable, and while you view them as negatives, to some might not be. To everyone, unwanted pregnancy and disease can equally be related as negatives, which is why they can be accurately tested.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: Snagle
Originally posted by: Riprorin
How did you arrive at the statistics?

me? I did a rough conservative guesstimate that should be fairly accurate considering how well I know how people in highschool act. I should've noted that I live in a town of about 25,000 and theres only one real highschool.

I'm a junior right now and I'd say that going from sophmore to junior year in highschool is when the biggest change in sexual activity takes place. Underclassmen are in general less sexually active but by no means are they all abstinent, most are expirementing with oral sex and the like.

It wasn't like that at my high school 25 years ago. My friends and I hardly even talked about sex.
Of course not, you were typical sexually repressed Catholics. When was in HS 30+ years ago we always talked about sex and it wasn't about getting boned by the Priest.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: Snagle
Originally posted by: Riprorin
How did you arrive at the statistics?

me? I did a rough conservative guesstimate that should be fairly accurate considering how well I know how people in highschool act. I should've noted that I live in a town of about 25,000 and theres only one real highschool.

I'm a junior right now and I'd say that going from sophmore to junior year in highschool is when the biggest change in sexual activity takes place. Underclassmen are in general less sexually active but by no means are they all abstinent, most are expirementing with oral sex and the like.

It wasn't like that at my high school 25 years ago. My friends and I hardly even talked about sex.
Of course not, you were typical sexually repressed Catholics. When was in HS 30+ years ago we always talked about sex and it wasn't about getting boned by the Priest.

I went to Catholic schools from 4th grade through college and I never heard about anyone getting "boned" by a Catholic priest/brother. I left public school because when I was in third grade. I had a teacher that was an alcoholic and the school wouldn't do anything about it so my parents pulled me out.

I've never felt "repressed" and I had plenty of sex when I got married so I made up for lost time.

To the best of my knowledge all of my old friends are doing well with families and there are only a couple only divorces that I know of.

None of us seem to have suffered much by not having sex at 15.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: Riprorin


I've never felt "repressed" and I had plenty of sex when I got married so I made up for lost time.

To the best of my knowledge all of my old friends are doing well with families and there are only a couple only divorces that I know of.

None of us seem to have suffered much by not having sex at 15.
LOL, 90% of kids don't have sex at 15 (though a lot of them will lie and say they did)

Anyways I was commenting about your statement that you never talked about it at 15. You either were physically immature or repressed at that age because when I was that age I didn't know one kid who never talked or thought about it, they couldn't help it, their hormones were raging which is typically normal for a teenager who is becoming sexually mature at that age.


 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Riprorin


I've never felt "repressed" and I had plenty of sex when I got married so I made up for lost time.

To the best of my knowledge all of my old friends are doing well with families and there are only a couple only divorces that I know of.

None of us seem to have suffered much by not having sex at 15.
LOL, 90% of kids don't have sex at 15 (though a lot of them will lie and say they did)

Anyways I was commenting about your statement that you never talked about it at 15. You either were physically immature or repressed at that age because when I was that age I didn't know one kid who never talked or thought about it, they couldn't help it, their hormones were raging which is typically normal for a teenager who is becoming sexually mature at that age.

I never said we never didn't think about it (at least I did). It just wasn't a fixation or a big topic of discussion.

Sports and school activities dominated a lot of our activities and conversations.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
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Anyways I was commenting about your statement that you never talked about it at 15. You either were physically immature or repressed at that age because when I was that age I didn't know one kid who never talked or thought about it, they couldn't help it, their hormones were raging which is typically normal for a teenager who is becoming sexually mature at that age

Not everyone feels the urgent need to discuss sex at 15.
being respectable != being repressed
 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: Riprorin
[
I went to Catholic schools from 4th grade through college and I never heard about anyone getting "boned" by a Catholic priest/brother. I left public school because when I was in third grade. I had a teacher that was an alcoholic and the school wouldn't do anything about it so my parents pulled me out.

I've never felt "repressed" and I had plenty of sex when I got married so I made up for lost time.

To the best of my knowledge all of my old friends are doing well with families and there are only a couple only divorces that I know of.

None of us seem to have suffered much by not having sex at 15.

Originally posted by: Riprorin
I never said we never didn't think about it (at least I did). It just wasn't a fixation or a big topic of discussion.

Sports and school activities dominated a lot of our activities and conversations.



In that case I think most people here can agree that your childhood was not normal in that sense. I don't think I had a single friend in HS who wasn't trying to get laid pretty much at all times. Even a couple that were catholic and intended to wait until marriage quickly gave that up.

With regards to NOT teaching anything but abstinence I can't think of a sillier way to stop teen pregnencies. Teaching absitnence as the BEST way to stop pregnency/STDs is fine but completely neglecting safe sex as the next best thing is pretty silly. Some kids will be having sex no matter what you tell them and wouldn't it be best if they were well informed so as not to knock anyone up or pass around STDs? I would think that conservatives who want to stop as many abortions as possible would want kids to have the best possible information on how to avoid getting pregnent (this would take the decision about whether or not to have an abortion right out of the picture). If you think kids have all the info on contraceptives you are wrong - with a sister-in-law who did social type work for a while with kids I've heard some stories about the shocking lack of knowledge they have on the subject.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: tss4
Originally posted by: Riprorin

I'd have to say that HS and my last two years of college were probably the happiest periods of my life.

That's kind of sad. If I may ask, when did you get married? It seems unfair to compare the ability of one generation to wait compared to the present generation when the average age of marriage is so much later in life. (In other words, we'd have to wait much longer).

I think that what's sad is the number of kids today who are miserable, depressed, and suicidal.

Childhood should be happy time in your life. Afterall, it's the period in you life when you should have the fewest cares, worries, and responsibilities.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: sao123
Anyways I was commenting about your statement that you never talked about it at 15. You either were physically immature or repressed at that age because when I was that age I didn't know one kid who never talked or thought about it, they couldn't help it, their hormones were raging which is typically normal for a teenager who is becoming sexually mature at that age

Not everyone feels the urgent need to discuss sex at 15.
being respectable != being repressed
Then they remain ignorant and have misconceptions about it when they become older.

 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: Riprorin
[
I went to Catholic schools from 4th grade through college and I never heard about anyone getting "boned" by a Catholic priest/brother. I left public school because when I was in third grade. I had a teacher that was an alcoholic and the school wouldn't do anything about it so my parents pulled me out.

I've never felt "repressed" and I had plenty of sex when I got married so I made up for lost time.

To the best of my knowledge all of my old friends are doing well with families and there are only a couple only divorces that I know of.

None of us seem to have suffered much by not having sex at 15.

Originally posted by: Riprorin
I never said we never didn't think about it (at least I did). It just wasn't a fixation or a big topic of discussion.

Sports and school activities dominated a lot of our activities and conversations.



In that case I think most people here can agree that your childhood was not normal in that sense. I don't think I had a single friend in HS who wasn't trying to get laid pretty much at all times. Even a couple that were catholic and intended to wait until marriage quickly gave that up.

With regards to NOT teaching anything but abstinence I can't think of a sillier way to stop teen pregnencies. Teaching absitnence as the BEST way to stop pregnency/STDs is fine but completely neglecting safe sex as the next best thing is pretty silly. Some kids will be having sex no matter what you tell them and wouldn't it be best if they were well informed so as not to knock anyone up or pass around STDs? I would think that conservatives who want to stop as many abortions as possible would want kids to have the best possible information on how to avoid getting pregnent (this would take the decision about whether or not to have an abortion right out of the picture). If you think kids have all the info on contraceptives you are wrong - with a sister-in-law who did social type work for a while with kids I've heard some stories about the shocking lack of knowledge they have on the subject.


In typical use, condoms are about 85% effective. Would you get on an airplane if it had a 15% chance of crashing? I wouldn't.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
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Then they remain ignorant and have misconceptions about it when they become older.

Sitting around the lunch table talking about sex with your (just as uneducated as you) 15 year old friends does not erase the ignorance and misconceptions. It just create moreand also adds the pressure under the falsity "everyone is talking about it & therefore must doing it" and you need to also.

 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: sao123
Then they remain ignorant and have misconceptions about it when they become older.

Sitting around the lunch table talking about sex with your (just as uneducated as you) 15 year old friends does not erase the ignorance and misconceptions. It just create moreand also adds the pressure under the falsity "everyone is talking about it & therefore must doing it" and you need to also.
That would be true if they didn't have Sex Education in High School where they could bring up what they heard from their peers for honest discussion in class.

 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
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That would be true if they didn't have Sex Education in High School where they could bring up what they heard from their peers for honest discussion in class.

I didnt say you couldnt educate them about sex at 15.
I said, not everyone feels the need to sit around and just talk about it. Sex education does not require any input/discussion from your peers to be effective. Many students especially girls still respect the value of privacy in sexual feelings and choose to not discuss it with their friends/peers. that does not make them ignorant nor repressed.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: sao123
That would be true if they didn't have Sex Education in High School where they could bring up what they heard from their peers for honest discussion in class.

I didnt say you couldnt educate them about sex at 15.
I said, not everyone feels the need to sit around and just talk about it. Sex education does not require any input/discussion from your peers to be effective. Many students especially girls still respect the value of privacy in sexual feelings and choose to not discuss it with their friends/peers. that does not make them ignorant nor repressed.
Usually they are though.

 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
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You are basically saying we should expose our teens to sex. Allow them to freely (but safely) experiment with it.
So at what point do you draw the line about the respectability, decentness, & open availability of sex?
Should the FCC stop regulating sexual indecency on tv? Are we repressed by the FCC?
Better yet, what is sexual indecency? What makes pornography depicting 2 people having sex any more indecent than 2 people having sex in their house? If you encourage our kids to have sex & discuss it, what age should they be allowed to view it? Perhaps we should show our kids hentai cartoons (which are cartoons which include graphical sexual acts in them).
Should we stop regulating public nudity? Perhaps we should now allow prostitution?
Someone draw a boundary for me please.
is there no sacredness left for sex? At what point does an act of sex become down to the no more important than a handshake?

At what point do our urges make us no more civilized than the animals? After all we cant tame our animal instincts and hormones resist having sex, and we must have sex or masterbate or we will explode. Since our instinctual urges are that strong... perhaps we should kill each other for food, and the males should fight over the women and club them and keep them as possessions, hell we should just go back to the barbarian ways, and forget about being individuals with morals, because all morals are religiously based and all religious people are opressive repressed automatons.
 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: Riprorin

In typical use, condoms are about 85% effective. Would you get on an airplane if it had a 15% chance of crashing? I wouldn't.

show me the study on this and then describe to me what exactly 85% effective means in this case. If I have sex 100 times, 15 times someone should be getting pregnant (if this is the case I've already destroyed the odds and I need to go to Vegas right away with this sort of luck!)? or maybe if 100 people use condoms for a while, 15 of them will eventually get someone pregnant?

but even assuming your 85% number with whatever it means - it's still better than no protection at all. So my arguement would hold up all the same.
 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: sao123
You are basically saying we should expose our teens to sex. Allow them to freely (but safely) experiment with it.
So at what point do you draw the line about the respectability, decentness, & open availability of sex?
Should the FCC stop regulating sexual indecency on tv? Are we repressed by the FCC?
Better yet, what is sexual indecency? What makes pornography depicting 2 people having sex any more indecent than 2 people having sex in their house? If you encourage our kids to have sex & discuss it, what age should they be allowed to view it? Perhaps we should show our kids hentai cartoons (which are cartoons which include graphical sexual acts in them).
Should we stop regulating public nudity? Perhaps we should now allow prostitution?
Someone draw a boundary for me please.
is there no sacredness left for sex? At what point does an act of sex become down to the no more important than a handshake?

At what point do our urges make us no more civilized than the animals? After all we cant tame our animal instincts and hormones resist having sex, and we must have sex or masterbate or we will explode. Since our instinctual urges are that strong... perhaps we should kill each other for food, and the males should fight over the women and club them and keep them as possessions, hell we should just go back to the barbarian ways, and forget about being individuals with morals, because all morals are religiously based and all religious people are opressive repressed automatons.

that's quite the jump you made from Red Dawn's statement. I don't think he meant what you just said or he would have said it.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
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Was not directed at red dawn, just an overall statement of the majority of opinion eminating from this thread.

And im really curious... how many of the posters in this thread actually have kids...
especially the ones who say they'd prefer their kids have safe sex over none at all.

Also, I'd like to know of any of the people in this thread who have been involved in a getting an STD or unwanted pregnancy... do you regret having that sex? Do you wish you would have waited?
 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: sao123

And im really curious... how many of the posters in this thread actually have kids...
especially the ones who say they'd prefer their kids have safe sex over none at all.

I don't think anyone is saying they want their kids to have safe sex over no sex. I think they are saying you need to teach about safe sex as well so that if young people CHOOSE to have sex they do it safely. Some kids will have sex no matter what you tell them - so at the very least the risks can be greatly reduced for this select group. Hopefully most will more or less abstain but it is unreasonable to expect everyone to do this.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
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Originally posted by: sao123
You are basically saying we should expose our teens to sex. Allow them to freely (but safely) experiment with it.
So at what point do you draw the line about the respectability, decentness, & open availability of sex?
Should the FCC stop regulating sexual indecency on tv? Are we repressed by the FCC?
Better yet, what is sexual indecency? What makes pornography depicting 2 people having sex any more indecent than 2 people having sex in their house? If you encourage our kids to have sex & discuss it, what age should they be allowed to view it? Perhaps we should show our kids hentai cartoons (which are cartoons which include graphical sexual acts in them).
Should we stop regulating public nudity? Perhaps we should now allow prostitution?
Someone draw a boundary for me please.
is there no sacredness left for sex? At what point does an act of sex become down to the no more important than a handshake?

At what point do our urges make us no more civilized than the animals? After all we cant tame our animal instincts and hormones resist having sex, and we must have sex or masterbate or we will explode. Since our instinctual urges are that strong... perhaps we should kill each other for food, and the males should fight over the women and club them and keep them as possessions, hell we should just go back to the barbarian ways, and forget about being individuals with morals, because all morals are religiously based and all religious people are opressive repressed automatons.
You actually expect me to address all those questions you asked?

I don't know about you but I'm able to control my sexual urges just fine and abide to societal standards and norms. I don't and never have gone around having sex with any woman just because I could. I understand the consequences because I was informed of them from peers, family and in school (Yes in California 30+ years ago they had Sex Education which discussed reproduction, STD's, Auto eroticism and Safe Sex). There wasn't any AIDS back then but we sure were informed of the danger of Syphilis and Gonorrhea and I can assure you that it was enough to make us think twice.

Personally I think your Puritanical Views on Sex do more harm than good. I don't see any problems with consenting adults having sex as long as they are informed enough to take proper precautions. Of course you Puritans believe that Sex should only take place in the Sanctity of Marriage for the purpose of procreation and love so being informed about it really isn't necessary.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,650
203
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Personally I think your Puritanical Views on Sex do more harm than good. I don't see any problems with consenting adults having sex as long as they are informed enough to take proper precautions. Of course you Puritans believe that Sex should only take place in the Sanctity of Marriage for the purpose of procreation and love so being informed about it really isn't necessary.

Ideally, maybe the puritanist views sound good on paper, but realistically....
What I am most opinionated on is Minors/Kids/Teens should not be exposed to or participating in acts of sexuality. I think we need a no tolerance abstinence policy from schools and parents but yes, it must include education for post abstinence adulthood.
Once your a mature responsible consenting adult, I can approve of you having sex while taking proper precautions.
And i believe we should have the same approach with alcohol and tobacco.
 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: sao123

Ideally, maybe the puritanist views sound good on paper, but realistically....
What I am most opinionated on is Minors/Kids/Teens should not be exposed to or participating in acts of sexuality. I think we need a no tolerance abstinence policy from schools and parents but yes, it must include education for post abstinence adulthood.
.

I hate to break it to you but teens are going to be participating/exposed to acts of sexuality. When you look at other countries without all the sexual taboos and sex ed is started younger teen pregnancies go way down. Through proper and honest education more poeple will make the right choices.