Abstinence programs: lessons in futility?

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CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
It works across international boundaries - there's always a problem with this sort of thing though.

If I said to you, 'we want to study sex education, and we want your child in the study; they will either receive full sex-ed, AO, or no education at all, and the assignment will be random' what would you say, as a parent?

You work with what you have - it's clear that sex education encourages safer sex behaviour, but as far as its effect on abstinence, in the absence of within-state studies, it's really hard to say due to cultural differences.
Even if it does encourage more safe-sex behavior, do you doubt that it also encourages children to have sex? If so, then it's a matter of probabilities which method is better, and there is insufficient data to make the call as to which is more effective.
 

Fausto

Elite Member
Nov 29, 2000
26,521
2
0
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
It works across international boundaries - there's always a problem with this sort of thing though.

If I said to you, 'we want to study sex education, and we want your child in the study; they will either receive full sex-ed, AO, or no education at all, and the assignment will be random' what would you say, as a parent?

You work with what you have - it's clear that sex education encourages safer sex behaviour, but as far as its effect on abstinence, in the absence of within-state studies, it's really hard to say due to cultural differences.
Even if it does encourage more safe-sex behavior, do you doubt that it also encourages children to have sex? If so, then it's a matter of probabilities which method is better, and there is insufficient data to make the call as to which is more effective.
I'm sorry, but do you have any data backing your implied assertion that teaching "safe-sex" actually encourages sexual activity? You're hinging your whole position on this, so I'm curious.

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Even if it does encourage more safe-sex behavior, do you doubt that it also encourages children to have sex?

If so, then it's a matter of probabilities which method is better, and there is insufficient data to make the call as to which is more effective.

This thread has been hysterical.

How many years have humans especially the younger generation with the raging hormones been having sex???

This is what happens when Science and Evolution doesn't exist in the minds of the Radical Right.
 

imported_tss4

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
1,607
0
0
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
I think the better question is whether sex-ed leads to people who do have sex, having safer sex.

The answer to that is pretty clear, when you look at nations which do and do not encourage safe sex practices. AO is working really well in Africa.

BTW what is 'getting away with it'?

Doesn't that presume that having sex is wrong?
What it comes down to is that you still have no evidence of safe sex education working. It's been employed in this country for decades - where are the results?

'Getting away with it' indicates that they didn't catch an STD or become pregnant/impregnate someone.

The only comparison we could make is to Western Europe which has more aggressively pushed a more liberal sex education. It crosses some cultural divides so its not a perfect comparison. Seems to support the claim that a society that aggressively promotes contraception has the lowest abortion rate in the world.

http://www.intelihealth.com/IH...33&r=EMIHC000&c=208447

Western Europe had the lowest abortion rate, 11 per 1,000 women, although its abortion laws are similar to those in Eastern Europe, according to the study.

Of the unwanted pregnancies occuring whie using contraception, the majority where due to incorrect use of contraception

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_...-04/esfh-sft042603.php
Dr Bajos said misuse was the main reason given to explain the unplanned pregnancies with 60% of the Pill users saying they had forgotten one or more pill. But over 18% said it was due to illness or taking other medication, while a fifth had no explanation or didn't know. Over 57% of the women whose IUD had failed said they did not know what had gone wrong or had no explanation, while over 30% said the IUD was in the wrong position or fell out and more than a tenth blamed illness or medication.

Over half of the women whose unplanned pregnancy occurred while using condoms said the condom had slipped off or torn, nearly 30% had failed to use it on the occasion they got pregnant and nearly a fifth had no explanation or didn't know what went wrong. Of those using natural methods over a quarter said they had got their dates wrong and two-thirds said their partner failed to withdraw in time. Under 7% had no explanation or didn't know. Of the women using local methods e.g. spermicides, over half admitted not using it at the time they became pregnant and nearly a third said they had used the methods incorrectly. But 16% did not know what had gone wrong or had no explanation.

http://www.samsloan.com/world-ab.htm
Researchers said the disparity could be because of the greater availability and use of contraceptives in the west.

The study found that 30 percent of all pregnancies in Africa were unplanned, as were 39 percent in eastern Asia (excluding Japan), 34 percent in the rest of Asia, 52 percent in Latin America, 63 percent in Eastern Europe, 33 percent in the rest of Europe and 45 percent in North America, Australia, New Zealand and Japan.

The study's findings follow recent surveys that showed abortion and teenage pregnancy rates declining in the United States.

The U.S. abortion rate in 1995 and 1996 among women ages 15-44 was the lowest since 1975. Twenty-three of every 1,000 women of childbearing age had an abortion in 1995-96 compared with 22 per 1,000 in 1975, according to a Guttmacher study released in December.

Again Western Europe has the lowest amount of unwanted prgenancies in the developed world.

Your Quote (TLC):
It's been employed in this country for decades - where are the results?
Notice the decline of unwanted pregnancies over the last few decades in which you have characterized us as relying more on contraception.

Bottom line, a responsible society teaches its children how to make wise decisions.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,226
5,802
126
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
I seem to recall being taught about what constitutes plagiarism, and probably learned enough to do it without being caught. I didn't interpret that as encouraging me to do so - do you?
Are you going to threaten to kick kids out of school if they get caught having sex? They tell you what plagiarism is - and tell you that if you do it, you're done. You're doing the opposite - telling teens what sex is and how to get away with it.
How to get away with it? If they are going to have sex wouldn't you want them to know how to get away with it meaning not get pregnant, get STD's or Aids?

You have touched on what drives some Moralists, they want consequences for "sin". Not all "sin" mind you, just certain "sin" that they have avoided. If they abuse themselves with poor Nutrition, lack of exercise, or some other poor choices you can bet they'll be first inline to take advantage of anything that negates the ill effects of their "sin". For them Birth Control, Safe Sex, Needle Exchanges, and other such programs protects "sinners" from the consequences of their "sins". For the Moralist consequences are "God's Judgement".
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
I seem to recall being taught about what constitutes plagiarism, and probably learned enough to do it without being caught. I didn't interpret that as encouraging me to do so - do you?
Are you going to threaten to kick kids out of school if they get caught having sex? They tell you what plagiarism is - and tell you that if you do it, you're done. You're doing the opposite - telling teens what sex is and how to get away with it.
How to get away with it? If they are going to have sex wouldn't you want them to know how to get away with it meaning not get pregnant, get STD's or Aids?

You have touched on what drives some Moralists, they want consequences for "sin". Not all "sin" mind you, just certain "sin" that they have avoided. If they abuse themselves with poor Nutrition, lack of exercise, or some other poor choices you can bet they'll be first inline to take advantage of anything that negates the ill effects of their "sin". For them Birth Control, Safe Sex, Needle Exchanges, and other such programs protects "sinners" from the consequences of their "sins". For the Moralist consequences are "God's Judgement".

"Safe sex" as preached by Planned Parenthood and other liberals is a lie. The only way to keep yourself safe from AIDS and STDs is to abstain until marriage, remain monogamous, and find a partner who does likewise.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Fausto
I'm sorry, but do you have any data backing your implied assertion that teaching "safe-sex" actually encourages sexual activity? You're hinging your whole position on this, so I'm curious.
Just personal experience and common sense. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
Originally posted by: tss4
http://www.samsloan.com/world-ab.htm

Researchers said the disparity could be because of the greater availability and use of contraceptives in the west.

The study found that 30 percent of all pregnancies in Africa were unplanned, as were 39 percent in eastern Asia (excluding Japan), 34 percent in the rest of Asia, 52 percent in Latin America, 63 percent in Eastern Europe, 33 percent in the rest of Europe and 45 percent in North America, Australia, New Zealand and Japan.

The study's findings follow recent surveys that showed abortion and teenage pregnancy rates declining in the United States.

The U.S. abortion rate in 1995 and 1996 among women ages 15-44 was the lowest since 1975. Twenty-three of every 1,000 women of childbearing age had an abortion in 1995-96 compared with 22 per 1,000 in 1975, according to a Guttmacher study released in December.
"said a study released Thursday by The Alan Guttmacher Institute, a research organization that receives some funding from Planned Parenthood."
Unfortunately, this study is funded by Planned Parenthood, the single largest supplier of birth control and abortions worldwide. That, and the Guttmacher Institute's mission is to "protect the reproductive choices of all women and men in the United States and throughout the world." Not exactly a reliable source for a study on the merits of birth control.

From The AGI's web site:
The Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI) is a nonprofit organization focused on sexual and reproductive health research, policy analysis and public education. AGI publishes Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, International Family Planning Perspectives, The Guttmacher Report on Public Policy and special reports on topics pertaining to sexual and reproductive health and rights. The Institute's mission is to protect the reproductive choices of all women and men in the United States and throughout the world. It is to support their ability to obtain the information and services needed to achieve their full human rights, safeguard their health and exercise their individual responsibilities in regard to sexual behavior and relationships, reproduction and family formation.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
I seem to recall being taught about what constitutes plagiarism, and probably learned enough to do it without being caught. I didn't interpret that as encouraging me to do so - do you?
Are you going to threaten to kick kids out of school if they get caught having sex? They tell you what plagiarism is - and tell you that if you do it, you're done. You're doing the opposite - telling teens what sex is and how to get away with it.
How to get away with it? If they are going to have sex wouldn't you want them to know how to get away with it meaning not get pregnant, get STD's or Aids?

You have touched on what drives some Moralists, they want consequences for "sin". Not all "sin" mind you, just certain "sin" that they have avoided. If they abuse themselves with poor Nutrition, lack of exercise, or some other poor choices you can bet they'll be first inline to take advantage of anything that negates the ill effects of their "sin". For them Birth Control, Safe Sex, Needle Exchanges, and other such programs protects "sinners" from the consequences of their "sins". For the Moralist consequences are "God's Judgement".

"Safe sex" as preached by Planned Parenthood and other liberals is a lie. The only way to keep yourself safe from AIDS and STDs is to abstain until marriage, remain monogamous, and find a partner who does likewise.

sing it fundies c'mon:


There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.
You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood!

Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
God needs everybody's.
Mine! And mine! And mine!

Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaate!

RIP your ignorance brings me no end of comedy
;)
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Leave it to a liberal to make light of the 65 million Americans with incurable STDs or the 900,000 or so who are living with AIDS/HIV, approximately 300,000 of which don't even know they are HIV positive.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
better to make light of a difficult situation then twist it for a fvcked agenda like yours.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
better to make light of a difficult situation then twist it for a fvcked agenda like yours.

I have a solution to the problem, what do you have to offer except sarcasm?
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
and do you bring besides spam?

Why bother if you don't have anything to add to this thead?

I've provided a solution that will virtually eliminate STDs and AIDS.

What do you have to offer?
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
a life. here's a idea get one of those full body condoms, put it on seal it up tight volia! no diseases! or maybe being a bubble boy would be more your style.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Just because you lack self-control doesn't mean that you have to criticize those that do.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Just because you lack self-control doesn't mean that you have to criticize those that do.

And visa versa.

P.S. So "choosing" to have sex without marriage is lack of self control?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Yeh, Rip's "solution" is kinda like saying that if pigs had wings, they'd fly. An absurdity wrapped in a non-sequiter.

Of course, I'm sure he also believes that a few billion years of evolution can be set straight with a little bit of faith, too...

Or is the world really only 8000 yrs old?

Understanding the human reproductive cycle and how to avoid pregnancy when desired is a life skill, something quite useful to married monogamous couples, too. Arguing that teens shouldn't receive that knowledge because it encourages them to have sex is like arguing that they shouldn't understand the law, either, because that would just encourage them to break it...

I'm very much in favor of programs that emphasize and encourage abstinence in teens. OTOH, sending them out into the world with only that knowledge is like telling them to take a knife to a gunfight. We have, as a society, attempted to thwart nature in delaying childbearing for educational and sociological reasons, and have been mostly successful at it, within limits. Abstinence only worked reasonably well when people married very young, simply because they didn't have to abstain for very long, and because of the sociological structure of their society. And it still works in some parts of the world, where young women wear burkhas, don't go anywhere unescorted, and are married off at 14...
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,226
5,802
126
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
and do you bring besides spam?

Why bother if you don't have anything to add to this thead?

I've provided a solution that will virtually eliminate STDs and AIDS.

What do you have to offer?

Except you haven't. If your solution worked we wouldn't be discussing the issue.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: illustri
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Just because you lack self-control doesn't mean that you have to criticize those that do.

And visa versa.

i doubt its self control thats keeping the ladies away

Ok illustri I call that one: rip pwnage of the day,
hey, you know these opressed religious nuts are always get the freaky kinks..
I think we found us a serious masochist here. He just keeps coming back for more...
RIP you naughty, naughty troll!
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: illustri
i doubt its self control thats keeping the ladies away
Politics and News
A forum for more serious discussions of politics and current events. Passions are always high on all sides of these subjects so keep your posts on topic. PERSONAL FLAMES WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

Yet, this is all you do. Why are you still here?
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
to give you something to b1tch about inbetween apologising for your fearless liar.
edit: seriously he does this on purpose to stir up sh1t in here you know that thats what rip does, its his gig ya know?
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
to give you something to b1tch about inbetween apologising for your fearless liar.
edit: seriously he does this on purpose to stir up sh1t in here you know that thats what rip does, its his gig ya know?
I'd like you to find the last post in which I defended Bush on any issue. I'd like to see one issue on which you don't stay as far left of the fence as possible, just to see if you can do/have done it - think for yourself instead of pretending to be some enlightened rock star from California who has everything figured out.