ABBA members infiltrate a Jewish settlement, butcher family, babies

[Londo_Jowo]

I see. So when you read news articles you always look for links for the newspaper to back up it's sources, or you disregard the content and assume they are parroting some other news source. Am I correct? Perhaps the Jerusalem Post was parroting the Washington Post?

You are sounding sillier by the minute.

This is all regardless of the fact that the two newspapers report it completely differently.

If you're making a statement or report of that magnitude you should declare the source from which it was derived. Also if you pay attention to when those stories were posted JPost was the first. therefore the other two were parroting what was already reported. Are you really that blinded by your hatred for Palestinians/Muslims. You're an Anti-Semite in the true meaning of the term.

 

[ThePresence]

If you're making a statement or report of that magnitude you should declare the source from which it was derived.

The Jerusalem Post actually said that their source was Al-Hayat. Did you miss that? Of course the claim of responsibility was retracted, and they reported that as well. So let me just see here. You constantly look for news sources to back up their claims and show you the source, or you disregard it. But when it IS actually done, you completely miss it. Got it.
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=211909

Also if you pay attention to when those stories were posted JPost was the first.

Not that it matters at all who posted the story when, but Dar Al Hayat was first.

therefore the other two were parroting what was already reported.

A completely baseless claim.

Are you really that blinded by your hatred for Palestinians/Muslims. You're an Anti-Semite in the true meaning of the term.

Uhhh ok. You really proved that. Well done.

 

[SamurAchzar]

His (wrong) point is that there's as much chance anyone but a Palestinian did it as that ABBA, the musicians, not Abbas, did it.

He doesn't understand why he's wrong, even if it turns out a Palestinian did it.

Even if a hooded KKK member is found murdered in an alley in Watts, it's wrong for the headline to read, 'Blacks kill KKK member' until there's more information than it's likely.

He doesn't understand his behavior only reflects badly on him (as usual).

If you knew the topography of the area, you'd understand that this place is in the middle of fucking nowhere, surrounded by Arab villages. This is not a murder done in a Israeli city, but in an isolated settlement, and it's not a random act of violence either as clearly someone got in and out of there (according to the electronic systems installed).
In addition, this is nearly an exact replay of a similar murder that has occured in the same place about 9 years ago and was the work of Palestinians as well.

So you do understand the chance it was a criminal act and not a terrorist act is pretty slim, right? Look up "Itamar, Israel" in Google Earth, all the places you see around are Palestinian villages/cities.

If this were to happen inside the '67 borders no one would blame the Palestinians (in fact, something like that did happen about 2 years ago, and no one even suspected a terrorist act as it was in the Tel Aviv area).

Ignoring the location, surrounding population, motives and past occurrences does not make you "fair", just silly.

Anyway, IDF and Israeli Shin Bet are investigating this, and the Hamas choir here would doubt the findings anyway, so why do I even bother...

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The Jerusalem Post actually said that their source was Al-Hayat. Did you miss that? Of course the claim of responsibility was retracted, and they reported that as well. So let me just see here. You constantly look for news sources to back up their claims and show you the source, or you disregard it. But when it IS actually done, you completely miss it. Got it.
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=211909


Not that it matters at all who posted the story when, but Dar Al Hayat was first.


A completely baseless claim.


Uhhh ok. You really proved that. Well done.

Wow, let's come up with another article that was not linked in the original article. I also see there's conflicting reports yet only the first is reported. Bias with a capitol "B".

Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades officials denied that the attack came from within their ranks, telling Al Hayat that they are not connected to the Imad Mugniyeh group.

Please prove that your hatred towards Palestinians isn't Anti-Semitic.

 

[ThePresence]

Wow, let's come up with another article that was not linked in the original article. I also see there's conflicting reports yet only the first is reported. Bias with a capitol "B".

Actually they both were. Reading comprehension seems to be lacking.

Please prove that your hatred towards Palestinians isn't Anti-Semitic.

You made the claim, you show the proof.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Actually they both were. Reading comprehension seems to be lacking.

You made the claim, you show the proof.

The bias is in this thread by people such as the OP and yourself.

Semite - Please note Arabs are included.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semite

 

[ThePresence]

The bias is in this thread by people such as the OP and yourself.

Semite - Please note Arabs are included.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semite

Yes, yes, yes, I'm very aware of what Semitic people are. I happen to be one, but I appreciate the lesson. Since I'd like to believe we are all grown-ups here, we are using the term in it's currently used meaning, not it's technical definition.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

So we have to use your version of the term and not the correct version of the term.

 

[ThePresence]

So we have to use your version of the term and not the correct version of the term.

I said I'd like to believe we are all grown-ups.
I stand corrected.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I said I'd like to believe we are all grown-ups.
I stand corrected.

So now you're the one who determines who's grown up or not. This fits perfectly with your Israeli good all others bad mentality.

 

[Craig234]

If you knew the topography of the area, you'd understand that this place is in the middle of fucking nowhere, surrounded by Arab villages. This is not a murder done in a Israeli city, but in an isolated settlement, and it's not a random act of violence either as clearly someone got in and out of there (according to the electronic systems installed).
In addition, this is nearly an exact replay of a similar murder that has occured in the same place about 9 years ago and was the work of Palestinians as well.

So you do understand the chance it was a criminal act and not a terrorist act is pretty slim, right? Look up "Itamar, Israel" in Google Earth, all the places you see around are Palestinian villages/cities.

If this were to happen inside the '67 borders no one would blame the Palestinians (in fact, something like that did happen about 2 years ago, and no one even suspected a terrorist act as it was in the Tel Aviv area).

Ignoring the location, surrounding population, motives and past occurrences does not make you "fair", just silly.

Anyway, IDF and Israeli Shin Bet are investigating this, and the Hamas choir here would doubt the findings anyway, so why do I even bother...

You need to re-read my post, your response lacks reading comprehension. You make a good case for what I said, that the most likely suspect is a Palestinian.

You did not defend your error in stating for a fact that a Palestinian did, which is not yet known. Even if it's 99.99% likely, your headline was wrong.

You can pontificate all you like about why you think it was likely a Palestinian in the post; saying for a fact it was as a news story summary is not correct.

 

[Lemon law]

What Sammy ignores in his last post is that the location of the Israeli settlement proves nothing. Because it looks like the disgruntled Thia worker did it, because Fogel Senior owed him about $2800 in back pay and refused to pay up. Sadly in Israel and other mid-east countries, similar guest worker abuses are all too common.

After all, look at the time line of the crime, if it were Palestinian terrorists, why would they not kill as many Israelis as possible instead of patiently waiting for hours for the eldest Fogel daughter to leave the house, and confining the damage to just one family. And because the Thia guest worker would know the house and the entire village routine, and a Palestinian Terrorist would not be familiar with the village adds another nail in the coffin of a Palestinian did it theory.

Meanwhile this whole thread veers off on a weird tangent, as we debate which news source or newspaper was the first to report something that can't be sustained by actual facts. In short, one reported rumor does not become more credible when the rumor gets spread around.

 

[ThePresence]

Meanwhile this whole thread veers off on a weird tangent, as we debate which news source or newspaper was the first to report something that can't be sustained by actual facts. In short, one reported rumor does not become more credible when the rumor gets spread around.

I absolutely agree. What I was disputing is the assertion that the report is "Israeli propaganda".

 

[ThePresence]

MP complains over BBC non-coverage of murders.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...laughtered-in-Israel-doesnt-the-BBC-care.html

 

[Rebel44]

IDF: 2 Palestinians arrested in Fogel family massacre



Palestinian youths from Awarta "saw children sleeping in Fogel home," snuck in and stabbed them to death; suspects were affiliated with PFLP terror group, admitted to crime but showed no remorse.

http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=216963

 

[0roo0roo]

palestinian society spends their time churning out the new hitler youth, no surprise.

 

[Sephire]

"They received much support from family members and friends in their environment," the Shin Bet added.


Wow

 

[piasabird]

I thought Abba was a band?

 

[SamurAchzar]

Shin Bet also located weapons they stole from the settlers following the murder. Case is closed. I guess ABBA were innocent after all.

 

[Lemon law]

Shin Bet also located weapons they stole from the settlers following the murder. Case is closed. I guess ABBA were innocent after all.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ole Sammy is in a hell of a hurry to say case closed, when he doesn't even bother to post a link. The first thing to say is that Israel imposed a gag order on the Fogel investigation only lifted two or three days ago. But there are an amply number of Israel links for the police investigation, and here is one.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...-murder-of-5-members-of-fogel-family-1.356514

The first thing to say, is that even the Israel version makes it plain, this is not a terrorists incidents, its more a case of a petty Burglary gone wrong. Thus making it impossible to blame all Palestinians for the action of two petty thieves, because every country in the world has an amply number of such types. Then not in this but other links, the Thia worker theory is dismissed out of hand because the settlement in question allegedly did not hire guest workers. But Fogel could have hired such a guest worker outside the village or used him inside on the sneak. But still Israeli police, detained, questioned, and may have deported hundreds if not thousands of other guest workers.

But looking at the official Israeli police designer version, it sounds pretty hokie to me.
(1) In broad daylight, two young men use wirecutter to cut a security fence, then cross 400 meters of open ground unseen, and then break into an empty house. In the process stealing a high powered rifle. (2) After waiting for dark circa 8 or 9 PM, they left house 1, moved to the Fogel house where they used the high powered rifle to murder at least one of the Fogel parents while stabbing the other to death. Yet no one inside or outside the Fogel house heard the shot or investigated. (3) Then they waited a while, explored the house, murdering Fogel children as they went, and in the process found and stole another high powered rifle. (4) Then they left the house, exited the semi illegal settlement, and returned to their village. (5) Then they enlisted family help to bury the stolen goods. And even before they could get home to bed, all hell brokes out when the Fogel bodies were discovered.

Its certainly possible, but its still sounds dubious. After all, all we have is a not exactly Israeli credible version of events. Simply because Israel has a long long long history of white washing themselves.

But from other links its possible to find out, that Israel went into the surrounding Palestinian villages detaining, questioning, hundreds if not thousands of the 8000 or so residents of surrounding villages. A police tactic not legal in the USA and most other civilized nations. And given that many arrests, and possible beatings, its almost a slam dunk that Israel could finds at least two weak and stupid people to confess. Such incidents used to happen frequently in even the USA, so we now have to wonder, will any these alleged criminals get access to attorney's? And will Israel grant free and open trails?

So I still reserve judgment until the case is proved in a court. But its still very hard to believe anyone could discharge a noisy high powered rifle in densely packed and paranoid settler village at that time frame without raising an immediate alarm. As for finding the murder weapons, they can easily be police planted.

 

[jonks]

Shin Bet also located weapons they stole from the settlers following the murder. Case is closed. I guess ABBA were innocent after all.

I don't trust the Swedish.

 

[linkgoron]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ole Sammy is in a hell of a hurry to say case closed, when he doesn't even bother to post a link. The first thing to say is that Israel imposed a gag order on the Fogel investigation only lifted two or three days ago. But there are an amply number of Israel links for the police investigation, and here is one.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...-murder-of-5-members-of-fogel-family-1.356514

The first thing to say, is that even the Israel version makes it plain, this is not a terrorists incidents, its more a case of a petty Burglary gone wrong. Thus making it impossible to blame all Palestinians for the action of two petty thieves, because every country in the world has an amply number of such types. Then not in this but other links, the Thia worker theory is dismissed out of hand because the settlement in question allegedly did not hire guest workers. But Fogel could have hired such a guest worker outside the village or used him inside on the sneak. But still Israeli police, detained, questioned, and may have deported hundreds if not thousands of other guest workers.

But looking at the official Israeli police designer version, it sounds pretty hokie to me.
(1) In broad daylight, two young men use wirecutter to cut a security fence, then cross 400 meters of open ground unseen, and then break into an empty house. In the process stealing a high powered rifle. (2) After waiting for dark circa 8 or 9 PM, they left house 1, moved to the Fogel house where they used the high powered rifle to murder at least one of the Fogel parents while stabbing the other to death. Yet no one inside or outside the Fogel house heard the shot or investigated. (3) Then they waited a while, explored the house, murdering Fogel children as they went, and in the process found and stole another high powered rifle. (4) Then they left the house, exited the semi illegal settlement, and returned to their village. (5) Then they enlisted family help to bury the stolen goods. And even before they could get home to bed, all hell brokes out when the Fogel bodies were discovered.

Its certainly possible, but its still sounds dubious. After all, all we have is a not exactly Israeli credible version of events. Simply because Israel has a long long long history of white washing themselves.

Did you even read the article, or read the official Israel Police version?

The suspects "described what they did with self-control and did not express regret over their actions at any stage of the investigation," said a senior Shin Bet official. He said the men entered Itamar with the intention of carrying out a terror attack and stealing weapons.

No one said they cut the fence in broad day light, but at 21/22:00 PM (which is when the fence alerted the guards). About the gunfire, as stated it was a stormy night so it might have been harder to hear, either way, she was killed by gunfire so I don't really see your case anyway.

How about you read the facts first, before you claim anything?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Facts can not be allowed to get in the way of providing unreasonable alternative scenarios.

 

[Craig234]

It seems to me:

This is probably (someone translate that word for Samur) a good investigation by the Israelies in a difficult situation. Impressive that they found the perpetrators.

On that note, it's not clear how they found them - it seems usually it involves someone more trusted by them turning them in.

It SOUNDS like an independent act by an 18 and 19 year old, not a mere burglary, but not ordered by any organized group much less Palestinians in general.

Protection for an 18 and 19 year old by 'family and friends' is common in any society, even if it can be condemned for its violation of law.

Yes, every mother who finds her child did a crime SHOULD call the police, even when it involves people who are really criminals themselves insofar as choosing to live in illegal settlements, well armed, as part of an ongoing incursion on the rights of Palestinians. (Which does not justify this crime, to be clear, but is merely a factor in the likelihood of his being turned in by family).

I'm not convinced by the report throwing around the word 'terrorist attack', without any real evidence backing it up.

Clearly there was likely an element of hate for the settlers behind the vicious violence against this family. but terrorism is violence inflicted intended to bring about political change by creating pressure through the fear of violence (something widely condemned but also widely supported by people who agree with the side doing it). There's no evidence of such a motive, rather than one of hate for the settlers. Murders often involve hate for the murdered, that doesn't make it terrorism.

But the word terrorism is a political one for Israel to use.

Anyway, IMO, the Israelis may have but are very unlikely to have lied here - while there's huge pressure to find people to convict, in a case like this getting it wrong would be far more harmful to them than would be worth doing so. By our standards, they'd still be 'alleged' criminals, but I'd now not object to changing the statements from speculating it was 'probably' Palestinians to saying reportedly it was and dropping the 'probably'.

It doesn't prove much - and unfortunately just reinforces each sides' views, whether they're 'Palestinians are terrorists' or 'oppression breeds violence'.

The real issue remains not the murderous acts of an 18 and 19 year old, but the peaceful co-existence of the two groups, including the policy of settlements.

 

[piasabird]

I was just watching something on the news about Isreal being a leader in alternative energy development. What are Arabs doing again?