A64 939 Overclocking questions ?

anthrax

Senior member
Feb 8, 2000
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Hi

I haven't been overclocking for quite some time but I intend to get when I get the following system. I have number of questions to ask.

AMD Athlon 64 3500+
Gigabyte K8VSPXP-939
Cooler Master Hyper 6 HSF.
RAM, Going to be using DDR2700 for a while. I want to find out how fast the CPU clocks to before splashing out on fast DDR. I presume you can lock the Memory speed on the board right?

A: How fast could i resonably expect on a 3500+ with air cooling ? (I am guessing 2600 )
There are 2 ways to overclock A64s (non FX)
1: Jack up the FSB ?
2: Lower the muliplier then jack up the FSB. This allows for the maxium memory speed right?

How far can you resonable push the V-Core voltages on the A64 3500+ ?
 

AFK

Senior member
Nov 15, 1999
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I too have this processor and am curious about it's air cooled overclocking potential, so... bump :)
 

anthrax

Senior member
Feb 8, 2000
695
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Got it already

I am running mine at 2550 MHz. @1.6 Volts

I have managed to get it to run 2600 MHz @ 1.7 Volts and boot windows.. but it wasn't too stable. I am going to try again later after i re-arrange my case fans.
 

EazyVG

Member
Aug 3, 2004
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2550Mhz @1.6V is not bad.

I also got myself A64 3500+, 2x512MB DDR500 and Titan TWC-A04 watercooling system. But the motherbaord that i want, MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum, is not in stores yet. Once i will get the motherboard, I am hoping to reach atleast stable system at 2600Mhz. More will be nicer of course.

I will post my results once I will get results.
 

imported_Aelius

Golden Member
Apr 25, 2004
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Are you running memory @ 1:1 ratio with the CPU? To me that seems virtually impossible unless your FSB is really low, say around 200.

If so what is the spec of your RAM and its settings for this OC?

I'm also building a very similar system in the next 3 weeks (going with MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum) and AMD A64 3500.

Although my RAM is going to be OCZ EL PC4000 Gold Rev 2 (just came out this weekend). It runs insane timings of 2.5,3,3,6 at only 2.6v I can't wait to push it to 2.85 and see how far it can go with my setup.
 

anthrax

Senior member
Feb 8, 2000
695
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Lol, due to budgetery reasons, I have decided not to buy DDR4200 until if figured out how fast my CPU will go first.. Why? Becuase, when I got he CPU/Mobo, I did not know how fast it will run at, Thats why I used my old DDR 2700 first to test the system and to help establish my setup's limits. I had to run with a HTT/Memory Sppeddevider.

From testing I have determined my MoBo's limit.
213MHz @ HHT multiplier @ x 5
245MHz @ HHT muliiplier @ x 4
CPU Limits
2600MHz @ 11 x 236 on 1.7V vcore. Aircool


Now that I know, I think I might have to get DDR4200. Most likley Kingston Hyper X of Corsair XMS.
 

imported_Aelius

Golden Member
Apr 25, 2004
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That's cool but make sure you get RAM that has good timings at those settings. It won't make a massive difference if you don't but if you don't then your performance will suffer.

That's why I backed away from using PC4400 RAM that was 3,4,4,8 @ stock 2.8v.

The best of both worlds is to have plenty of bandwidth and tight timings.

Plus some types of RAM just aren't very compatible with A64 even in socket 939. It seems the smaller Micron RAM DIMMs are the most compatible but not many RAM makers produce RAM with them cause they sure as heck aint cheap.

Plus for RAM, not so much on Intel boards but very much on A64, the RAM noise will play a big part in how far you can overclock the RAM before it quits.

Not a lot of RAM is out there that reduce this noise in RAM and those that do generally only work (or at the very least only work best) in the timings listed as stock. Making changes to timings end up causing instability cause you end up with noise in RAM that normally wouldn't be there.

Anyway just some things to consider when buying RAM.

Personally I think it's a major freaking headache and I have been tearing my hair out for the past couple of weeks trying to figure out what to buy, until OCZ came out with the above RAM I mentioned. Now I'm not saying that's the only choice, no way, but that's what I will try and hope that it works.

It's such a crapshoot just making an A64 system today. I hate it, but I refuse to go Intel even if one out of every second A64 CPU would burst into flames.
 

syconub

Senior member
Aug 7, 2004
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do you guys take any precautions when overclocking? ie:extra fans, new case??
 

anthrax

Senior member
Feb 8, 2000
695
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Yeah,

Use a well ventilated case
=> I am using a old Lian Li PC -60 series with 4 80mm fans.

Use a decent power supply but you don't have to be too fancy.
=>

Use a decent MB brand. (stay away from , asrock, ECS (extremely crappy silicon, PChips
=>

Use a decent heat sink
I am using a Cooler master hyper six...but I had to perform a simple mod on the mounting bracket inorder to make it fit on my Mobo.
 

imported_Aelius

Golden Member
Apr 25, 2004
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Originally posted by: syconub
do you guys take any precautions when overclocking? ie:extra fans, new case??

Tons. That's why you will never see me fry my system. If it does fry it won't have SFA to do with me screwing up. It will be cause something failed that wasn't supposed to fail, like the CPU fan for example.

Spectacular failurs occur because people have egos the size of Texas and don't take heat seriously enough and do a halfa$$ed job of dealing with it while pushing a computer way passed its limits, usually without the lack of an AGP lock or the board that doesn't have a very solid AGP lock fails and has a cascade effect on the system that fries pretty much everything.

It's funny as hell to watch until it happens to your dream machine.

Some stuff I do include:

-Use a heat sink with as much surface area as possible with the largest fan you can possibly get away with on it. (XP-120 just came out that requires a 120mm fan)

-Use high quality fan with the heat sink that is not only relatively quiet but also an outstanding performer in its class for overclocking. (Enermax SpeedDial is aprox 95CFM @ 2300RPM @ 30dBA that is more than 8 times quieter than other fans of similar performance)

-Use high quality thermal compound (Arctic Silver 5) instead of some cheap pad that comes with a heat sink. (provides far better heat transfer and lower temps.

-Lap the heat sink if required (mirror finish) to allow for maximum contact on the surface of the CPU and heat sink. This results in far better heat transfer and therefore lower temps. (usually 2-5C at most)

-Allowing a "burn-in" period for the computer after everything is installed. This allows the thermal compound you applied (Arctic Silver) to heat up to the required temp (it's even in the manual). After a certain ammount of burn-in time (check manual) you shut the system off for 24 hours to allow for the compound to even itself out as it contracts from being cool. After the system is turned back on you should find the CPU running at slightly cooler temps because of the perfect setting of the thermal compound between the heat sink and the CPU.

-Use a full aluminum computer case. This allows for better heat disipation inside the case and therefore lower case temps because the case acts like a giant heat sink. This would allow you slightly better OCing and overall cooler temps inside the case, not to mention that full aluminum cases are very nice, tho not cheap.

-Make sure the fans inside the case are setup so they aren't conflicting with each other. You need a draft from front to back or back to front but don't ever have fans blowing at each other because it destroys the case temps and will cause heat to remain in the case.

-A case that has a fan at the top is a plus for full tower cases. Hot air rises (remember that from school?) and it is good to have something pushing that out of the case to lower the case temps further.

-If possible try to get the heat generated by the video card (newer ones run at over 70C) out of the case instead of allowing it to be blown back into the case. It is one of the hotest things inside of your computer and shouldn't add to the problem. Another reason why I like ATI. Combined with a VGA Silencer (Google it) you can lower the temp of the video card by 20 C and have the hot air blow directly out of the case instead of being blown into the case, although it steals one of your PCI slots to do it.

-Pick a motherboard that has a known very solid AGP lock. Without it you are flirting with disaster.

-For God sakes pick a very high quality Power Supply. Statistics for system failure due to PSU sits at around 18% while the system is lucky if you spend 5% of the systems cost on the PSU itself. The crap people use for PSUs is idiotic on a stagering scale. People spend $50 on a PSU in a $4000 system (or worse they use the one that comes with the case) and get upset when it blows or everything is fried or something fails that ends up frying everything or there is lots of instability or they are getting piss poor overclocking results. The vast majority of the time its the PSU. So spend $200 on a PSU that will simply refuse to fail and has rock solid current through the rails as opposed to the crap people generally use now. Even the usual brand name PSUs suck when heavily overclocking and a lot of heat is generated in the case. Get a PSU that is heavy enough that if you dropped it on your toes you would know your toes are crushed. Heavier the better quality. Personally I use PC Power and Cooling.

I'm sure there is more but it's 1AM and I'm a little tired to think of more stuff. I'll add more if I think of anything else later.

EDIT: I thought of more things.

-When OCing the CPU don't be retarded and suddenly push the FSB for the CPU to where you want to end up at without changing anything else. Just slowly up the FSB and make sure you up the RAM's FSB as well to match 1:1 ratio or underclock the RAM 5:4 to eliminate it as a possible cause of instability if your overclock for the CPU isn't working.

-Go very slow with adding voltage to both the RAM and especially the CPU and heavily test it out if you think you reached your limit. Once you reached your absolute limit, back it off one notch to where you were before to make sure you will have a rock solid system and be happy with what you end up with. People fry systems cause they are pushing it to the limit and leaving it there, which is just asking for disaster.
 

imported_michaelpatrick33

Platinum Member
Jun 19, 2004
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Originally posted by: Aelius
Are you running memory @ 1:1 ratio with the CPU? To me that seems virtually impossible unless your FSB is really low, say around 200.

If so what is the spec of your RAM and its settings for this OC?

I'm also building a very similar system in the next 3 weeks (going with MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum) and AMD A64 3500.

Although my RAM is going to be OCZ EL PC4000 Gold Rev 2 (just came out this weekend). It runs insane timings of 2.5,3,3,6 at only 2.6v I can't wait to push it to 2.85 and see how far it can go with my setup.


Go to Anandtech's review of the 939's and you will see the ASUS rev 2 board get to 289 1:1 memory and the MSI Neo Platinum force board get to 290 at 1:1. The highest for either AMD or P4. I am waiting for the MSI board and volt modding it with 550 memory and I have a volt modded the PSU and motherboard for some 3.2volt memory action. I will watercool my 3500 and I am hoping for a 290 x 9 = 2610. I will let you know whenever the darn board comes out. I also am waiting for my x800xt to volt mod and watercool. Droooooooool. Drooooooool. Sorry had a Homer moment

OCZ has DDR 550 memory at CL 2.5-4-4-8 timings at 2.85 volts. I am hoping for 2-3-3-10 with my board at 3.2 volts but will settle for 2.5-3-3-10. HUHIUHIIHIHAHAHAHAHAHAH
 

EazyVG

Member
Aug 3, 2004
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A very nice and brief review of precautions to take while overclocking.

I was wondering about the RAM and the impact of speed it will have on the system.
Currently I have PAtriot DDR500 2x512MB, Dual Channel Kit, with 3-4-4-8 settings.
I am hoping that this RAM will work with my S939 atleast @DDR500.

The OCZ, depending which one, will cost around 100-150$ more than the Patriot RAM.
If I will decide to go with OCZ with tighter RAM settings, such as PC-4400 Dual Channel Gold or
OCZ EL DDR PC-4000 Dual Channel Gold, both of which have 2.5-4-4-8 settings, will it make a big difference
in performance of the overall system.

Plus I guess the OCZ has more chance working with S939 @ more than DDR500 speed.
Should I go with OCZ or I will just spend extra money without getting the crucial benefits?
 

imported_Aelius

Golden Member
Apr 25, 2004
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Originally posted by: EazyVG
A very nice and brief review of precautions to take while overclocking.

I was wondering about the RAM and the impact of speed it will have on the system.
Currently I have PAtriot DDR500 2x512MB, Dual Channel Kit, with 3-4-4-8 settings.
I am hoping that this RAM will work with my S939 atleast @DDR500.

The OCZ, depending which one, will cost around 100-150$ more than the Patriot RAM.
If I will decide to go with OCZ with tighter RAM settings, such as PC-4400 Dual Channel Gold or
OCZ EL DDR PC-4000 Dual Channel Gold, both of which have 2.5-4-4-8 settings, will it make a big difference
in performance of the overall system.

Plus I guess the OCZ has more chance working with S939 @ more than DDR500 speed.
Should I go with OCZ or I will just spend extra money without getting the crucial benefits?

Try the RAM you have now. Only spend money on different RAM if it doesn't work at all regardless of what you do or you get very poor OCing results and have eliminated everything else as the cause. None of this will be easy.

Also there is little point in spending a lot of cash on RAM that is marginally better (OCZ RAM you listed) if the other one works.

If you find nothing works I would first look at the EB line from OCZ because they have very tight timings and that RAM is very compatible but without a lot of voltage 3v-3.2v it can't reach very high FSB without lowering the multiplier quite a bit.

From the benchmarks I seen it "might" be possible to reach DDR520 (260FSB) @ 10 multiplier with OCZ EB PC3700 RAM but there is no guarantee. I think it's more likely to reach that @ 9 multiplier.

There is no way to know because no one has tested these kinds of RAM on the the newer socket 939 motherboards, especially the Neo2.

I was suggested by OCZ to buy the EL PC4000 Gold Rev 2 that just came out this weekend. I will try that because that's a lot more likely to reach 260FSB @ 10 multiplier, or at least I hope so.

Personally my goal is to reach 290FSB @ 9 multiplier. It's not impossible with the air cooling setup I will have cause it approaches the specs of some watercooling units, which is pretty decent.

Remains to be seen. Have to wait 3 weeks for the motherboard till MSI release it. Unless they push it back again. I wouldn't mind if they did push it back if they added RAM voltage @ 3v. That would make my day.
 

EazyVG

Member
Aug 3, 2004
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Aelius

I forgot to mention that the Patriot DDR500 RAM sticks that i have are douple sided.
I have read that A64 might have problems with such RAMS, and prefers single sided sticks.

Any thoughts on this. Regarding to play wait and test solution that you recommended,
I will do so and thanks for your reply.

Besides, are the OCZ single sided RAM sticks.
 

EazyVG

Member
Aug 3, 2004
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Aelius

I forgot to mention that the Patriot DDR500 RAM sticks that i have are douple sided.

I have read that A64 might have problems with such RAMS, and prefers single sided sticks.
Are the OCZ RAM Sticks single sided?

Any thoughts on this. Regarding to play wait and test solution that you recommended,
I will do so and thanks for your reply.
 

imported_Aelius

Golden Member
Apr 25, 2004
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I studied up on this in the past 20min, cause honestly I knew nothing on this subject, and deducted the following

Motherboards have a far easier time sending electrical signals to something that has fewer components as opposed to more. This simply means the less DIMMS used the better. It doesn't matter if those DIMMS are found on two sides or one side of a memory stick. If one has 8 chips and one has 16 chips the one with 8 chips will allow easier signal transfer.

This also relates to overclocking because the fewer compoents mean less noise between components that are communicating. Signal noise is a major cause of poor performance in high end DDR RAM.

Generally you will find 8 chips on a single sided stick of RAM and more than likely 16 on a double sided one.

There's even better RAM called BGA, which looks like the DIMMs are somewhat flater than normal DIMMs you are used to seeing. These chips are even better and have less signal noise. OCZ's EB line of memory use BGA chips. That's probably partly why they overclock so well and are highly compatible.

I have yet to find out what kind of chips are used in the PC4000 Gold Rev 2 I'm looking to get but I wouldn't be surprised if they used BGA chips since the timings are so low and it is rated for low signal noise. It practically screams BGA, which is very good.
 

anthrax

Senior member
Feb 8, 2000
695
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81
A good way to test whether a overclocked system is running properly is using the program SuperPI...

Try doing the 32M calculation. If you can calculate PI to 32 millions digits..........Your system is pretty stable at the overclocked setting.
 

Thaer

Junior Member
Aug 7, 2004
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WOW! Reading this topic has been really good for me.
I'm going to buy the stuff you are going to buy too guys.
The AMD 64 3500+ and the MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum.
But I live in Sweden and I don't know if the release will be at the same time as in the U.S and Canada (where you probably live).

So when you're all at it, I wonder if I could ask a question:
Are the Corsair XMS 3200XL (1024mb - kit of 2) a good choice? Are they double-sided or single-sided?
I also read that the timings are 2-2-2-5, are they really that good?
 

anthrax

Senior member
Feb 8, 2000
695
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the MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum is vapor ware at the moment.

The only N-Force 3 Ultra board that you can actually buy now is the Gigabyte.
 

Tiamat

Lifer
Nov 25, 2003
14,068
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OP, for ram, take a look at Crucial Ballistix DDR400 2-2-2. This ram was able to keep 2-2-2 timings up to FSB 230. Also, it was able to keep 2.5-2-2 timings for the rest of its bandwidth >250fsb. I believe anandtech or toms did a review. Surprisingly good ram.
 

imported_Aelius

Golden Member
Apr 25, 2004
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I have an update. Not sure how accurate this is since it didn't come straight from OCZ.

The EL PC4000 Gold Rev2 uses new Hynix chips, not BGA.

Apparently Hynix chips do really well in Intel systems and piss poorly in A64 systems when you overclock.

I'm starting to get pissed off. Hopefully someone will review this RAM in the next 3 weeks because that's probably when the Neo2 motherboard will come out.
 

syconub

Senior member
Aug 7, 2004
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is it really worth it? cause tommorow im getting my parts for new comp, and after im done building it (about half a day cooped up in my room tinkering computer parts and yelling at anyone who calls for me to go away)



I just dont wanna fry everything.Followed by a tantrum unleashed by disbelief of what just happened.
How much does it help? On a AMD +2800
 

imported_RobJ

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Jul 27, 2004
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I bought the MSI K8N Neo2 Plat. from Newegg for $122 the day it came out and they had it at my doorstep in two days. I also bought the OCZ 3700EB ram and my 3500+ will be here by Friday (it's already en route).

That's the good news -- but I have never built a system before and have never overclocked. I bought the 460 watt ps from Thermaltake to go along with the Tsunami case that I chose. I'm sure they weren't the best PS/Case combo, but they should be fine. Lastly, I picked up a Thermaltake Silent Boost K8 for my proc. Now that I think about it, all of my cooling and my case are by Thermaltake, but I didn't do this consciously and i bought all at separate times going off of separate recommendations.

One question: Do i need to buy thermal paste? I'm not sure if it came with the SilentBoost or if it will be bundled with the processor (which was an OEM model purchased from Monarch for $370).

Also, once i put this thing together, I'll prolly have a bunch of quesions to ask about overclocking and hopefully i'll have results to post.