A64 3400+ s754 is now best bang for buck

[Zap]

I just noticed that places (including Newegg) had the OEM A64 3400+ s754 for around $175. This is for an AX stepping Newcastle 512k cache. The best part is that it runs at a default 2.4GHz. IMO it is probably the highest (stock clocked) performing CPU for under $200 on any platform. Doesn't this chip usually outperform a s939 3500+ since with A64 clock speed is king? Well, the s939 3500+ is $90 more. The closest price-wise is the s939 3200+, which in comparison runs at a paltry 2.0GHz.

I can see this as a really budget performance setup with an upgrade path. A number of board makers have Nforce4 s754 available now. One interesting board is made by MSI, with a "semi" AGP slot as well as the native PCI-E x16, plus overclocking features for $75. You can get a 3400+ CPU and motherboard for less than the price of a 3500+ CPU only and get better performance to boot, plus you get to keep your AGP video card for now and later upgrade to PCI-E (perhaps when next gen cards are out).

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[Artanis]

Yes, maybe u're right, A64 3400+ is best bang for buck. But future s754 90nm, SSE3 Semprons with 64 bits support may be even better

 

[ND40oz]

That is a good deal considering the 3200+ is 10 bucks more. I could only find one mATX PCI-E motherboard for skt754, is this one any good:

Chaintech MBAV-MK8T890

Edit: just found this one two, doesn't list it as a mATX, but it sure looks like one:

Jetway A200GDMS

 

[Artanis]

I have this one:
http://www.biostar.com.tw/products/mainboard/board.php?name=K8NHA-M%20Grand

 

[imported_Starman]

The 3400+ does not outperform the 3500+, thus the higher rating for the S939 chip. You can try and psyche yourself into believing it's worth buying S754, but the facts are against you. The money you think you save up front will be dwarfed by the cost of having to rebuy everything in a very short time. Buying S754 is not a good idea.

 

[drifter106]

If it would only fit in a 939 board... that would really top it off...gonna make another rig and just can't justify buying a 754 board... thats just my take on it...

looks great now but it dead ends real quick...

thanks for the heads up though....

 

[Concillian]

Originally posted by: Starman
The 3400+ does not outperform the 3500+, thus the higher rating for the S939 chip.

In most applications, the extra 200 MHz > dual channel memory.

You should know that the 'ratings' are suspect at best.

When clocked at the same speed, the S939 will outperform the S754 at everything, but when at stock speeds, the S754 is going to be faster most of the time.

 

[imported_Starman]

It depends on each individual application and whether the dual-channel memory is a benefit (as to which is faster). Regardless, even if a higher clocked S754 is faster by a couple of percentage points, who cares?! It's a dead platform with no upgradability whatsoever. The few bucks you try and save up front penalize you greatly in the future. Then there are the single channel memory issues on S754 such as the stress on the memory subsystem to handle anything higher than 1GB or to manage more than 1DIMM installed. It's a bastard when it comes to dealing with total installed RAM. With a Venice core or higher, S939 allows an easy transition to filling all memory banks without suffering too big a performance hit - and it will be stable. Try filling all three DIMMs on an S754 and see what happens...eh, try two DIMMs on most S754 mobos and it's hit or miss.

If you already have S754 then go ahead and wait it out a bit longer for Socket M2. I don't disparage anyone for owning S754 - it was, at one point, the only option availabe for people buying an Athlon 64. To buy it now, however, is akin to buying Socket A. In fact, I'd have less of a problem if someone told me they wanted to purchase a mobile Athlon XP 2500+ along with an Asus A78N Deluxe...want to do it as dirt-cheap as possible? Then buy Socket A. At some point you've got to consider the entire context of upgrading and whether it's worth an extra dollar or two for greatly expanded options, better performance, and a future.

...but hey, no one has to be rational. I'll make you a great deal on a 486 DX2 Intel Overdrive - it's real cheap :thumbsup: :roll:

 

[blckgrffn]

Well, starman, I have to say that you really missed the point here. Bang for the buck is the name of the game. 3500+ is not even close as far as bang for the buck. It goes back and forth between the 3400+ and 3500+ as to which is faster, but the 3500+ is what, a $100 more?

Plus, you can pick up a sold nf3 socket 754 for about $50 (shuttle at mwave, for example). Not to mention that finding a 754 w/agp is much easier than the 939/agp, so reusing an existing video card (lots of agp 6800's and 6800GT's out there for relatively cheap, especially when considering the price of their PCIe counterparts, even a 9800Pro is still a solid card) is a no brainer.

Buying 939 now is not the best way to go if you want the best perfomance for your buck. So you can stick a $500 x2 in there! Good for you! But when you want DDR2, etc, you will have to buy a new mobo too. You get better longevity with 939 in the fact that you can move the processor, but lets face, if you like the cutting edge that much then last years processor won't cut it anymore.

I don't know what you are talking about as far as memory problems on socket 754 boards. Every 939 board I have ever used really was finicky about the ram that I put in it, while all the 754 boards would gladly accept the cheapest ram in whatever configuration that I chose. And it has always been two dims and no misses here. Maybe you are thining pre-newcastle 754 and too cheap motherboards. ECS and PC-chips can spell trouble, friend

Socket A is a stupid and expensive way to go at this point when A64 performance can be had for only a little more. Prices on the mobiles, especially ones that can clock high, are very close to where you could get a 2800+ or even better.

Just trying to keep it rational for you!

 

[Artanis]

3400+ does slightly outperform 3500+ in most cases:
http://www.hardware.fr/articles/531/page7.html

Since there is Turion, s754 is not dead

 

[blckgrffn]

I looked back at the HL2 and Doom3 articles, and it seems that the 3500+ has about a 1 fps lead in HL2 and wasn't around for Doom3. I did, however, get over 100FPS with my 3400+, LL ram, and 6800U @ 445/1140 in doom3 1024*768 HQ, which is hardly slow!

 

[imported_Starman]

Originally posted by: blckgrffn
Bang for the buck is the name of the game.

Which is precisely why one shouldn't throw money away on a dead platform. As I said before, S754 offers you limited upgradability on the RAM side and no means of upgrading your processor. Nice "bang" for your buck...are we talking about saving money or not?

3500+ is not even close as far as bang for the buck

I never said that someone should get the 3500+! Screw that CPU. I'd recommend either a 3000+ or 3200+ Venice. Each of those chips overclock like monsters and are very inexpensive.

So you can stick a $500 x2 in there! Good for you!

Did I ever advise buying an X2 right now and paying through the nose? What kind of argument are you trying to make? The fact remains that if someone wants to install a superfast X2 on S939 the option is there. Prices on X2 will only come down and buying an inexpensive S939 setup now enables you to have a smoking S939 setup in the future. You could start with 1GB of RAM today and easily double that in the future (thanks to the 4DIMM slots on S939 compared to the meager three on S754). You could start with a cheap 3000+ CPU and easily double its performance in the future (by means of upgrading to an X2). Only on S939. Even if you don't go X2, there will be much cheaper S939 options in the single core market that blow away a 3400+ S754. There's the 3700+ San Diego which reaches 2.8Ghz on stock air cooling. There's the 4000+ which just continues dropping in price. The bottom line is that S939 presents options, options, and options. S754 offers you past tense, past tense, and past tense

Seriously, this S754 vs S939 argument held water a year ago...it's time to finally let go of the dream.

 

[blckgrffn]

Saving money means saving money now, and for what its worth, we couldn't have had this argument a year ago, could we

So you would advise buying a slower computer for more money? I don't follow... bang for the buck means performance NOW, when I put it together, get the OS running, and start playing my favorite game. Not everyone OC's and not everyone SHOULD OC, it can hurt your hardware if you don't know what you are doing and getting rock solid stability can be a problem on some systems right after the are put together, let alone after trying to OC it. As far as adding ram, buy a one gig stick now for your 754 system. Maybe someday buy another stick, if not, oh well, likely a year from now an entry level M2 system will be just as cheap as our nicely performing 754 system is right now. Ram upgrades are not a concern on socket 754 any more than they are for the 939 platform. Once AMD uses DDR-2, all this first gen DDR will be useless.

Just curious, how many systems have you built starman? I put together five in that last two weeks, not trying to say that is a lot but I am just wondering how much hands on experience you have at this. Out of the box performance is very important, and most of my clients simply upgrade their entire computer every other year or so and could care less about how they can upgrade their processor in a few months, how well it could OC, etc, they want speed and reliability right now, and for the lowest price possible. This 3400+ 754 does this without question. End of argument. You mention the 3700+ San Diego - that is twice the price! TWICE. It won't be available at a decent price point until, what, Christmas at the earliest? And then, with your mindset, that would be another stupid way to go because it will be hopelessly out of date with the new M2 sockets, duallies, and DDR-2.

We are talking about getting the most performance now for the least amount of money, and this is the way to go. I am not sure why you are so stuck on 939 being the best way to go for the bang for the buck crowd... a good path, if you want to OC and migrate to PCIe, certainly, but the ONLY path, definitely not. Personally, I have never upgraded CPU without changing motherboards too, and I don't expect that to change any time soon. None of the people that I have sold computers too and non of my PC lovin' pals do either, but that is just my experience.

Nat

 

[Artanis]

I agree with that

 

[imported_Starman]

Griff: to each his own. I've been building systems for over 15 years and in the business for almost 20. Differences of opinion is all that Zap asked for when creating this thread, and he's obviously gotten that from the two of us. Cheers :beer:

 

[blckgrffn]

Amen to that! Cheers! :beer:

 

[imported_Starman]

Cheers, again!

:beer:

...hooray!

:beer: :beer: :beer:

...a..g..ain...

:beer: :beer:

...

:beer:

Zap...buy a 3400+ S754!



***burps***

 

[Concillian]

Originally posted by: Starman

Seriously, this S754 vs S939 argument held water a year ago...it's time to finally let go of the dream.

It entirely depends on what kind of person you are talking to.

The typical non-overclocker (as the OP said he was) also is someone who tends to not upgrade for a while. In this case S939 is just as dead as S754 in that it's higly unlikely he will be upgrading before S939 is entirely replaced.

There is also the NEED for performance. Most gamers absolutely do not NEED more CPU performance than a 3400+... if you define NEED as keeping minimum FPS in modern games attributable to CPU above 60FPS (after all, who cares about a 20 FPS difference when the average FPS is already in the 80-100+ range as with many CPU benchmarks)

To work in absolutes as you seem to is irrational. At least to me. S939 and S754 both have advantages. Bang for the buck is a particular advantage of S754. S939 has better expandability, but I've been overclocking and upgrading for over 10 years and I have replaced a better CPU in the same motherboard once myself and once for a friend.

More often than not you end up with new technologies that make sense to upgrade motherboard and CPU at the same time. A year from now will anybody be considering S939? No because there will be better DDR2 and new sockets. For people that overclock, upgrade very often (6 months or so), or run apps that need the dual channel performance 939 is important, for the rest of the people S754 is more than adequate.

I think CPU performance on forums like this is blown out of proportion too. The majority of the participants are gamers and benchmarks clearly show that games don't get much, if any, tangible benefit from crazy CPU overclocking, yet people are rabid about it.

 

[Aenslead]

Well, that's another point... the OCing debate is on the other corner, but in sinthesis, its EVERYONE likes free performance. An OCing gives you that.

I bought a 2800+, and I got a 3500+; that's over $150 USD saving, no? And its Prime95 24hrs stable, so... I think its worth it.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: Artanis
I have this one:
http://www.biostar.com.tw/products/mainboard/board.php?name=K8NHA-M%20Grand

Wow, where'd you find one of those for sale?

ND40oz, there are a number of regular ATX sized boards using Nforce4 chipset. You looking for mATX and PCI-E in particular?

When clocked at the same speed, the S939 will outperform the S754 at everything, but when at stock speeds, the S754 is going to be faster most of the time... The typical non-overclocker (as the OP said he was) also is someone who tends to not upgrade for a while... At least to me. S939 and S754 both have advantages. Bang for the buck is a particular advantage of S754. S939 has better expandability, but I've been overclocking and upgrading for over 10 years and I have replaced a better CPU in the same motherboard once myself and once for a friend... Concillian

It depends on each individual application and whether the dual-channel memory is a benefit (as to which is faster). Regardless, even if a higher clocked S754 is faster by a couple of percentage points, who cares?! It's a dead platform with no upgradability whatsoever... Differences of opinion is all that Zap asked for when creating this thread, and he's obviously gotten that from the two of us... Zap...buy a 3400+ S754! Starman

Not everyone OC's and not everyone SHOULD OC... Ram upgrades are not a concern on socket 754 any more than they are for the 939 platform. Once AMD uses DDR-2, all this first gen DDR will be useless...I am not sure why you are so stuck on 939 being the best way to go for the bang for the buck crowd... a good path, if you want to OC and migrate to PCIe, certainly, but the ONLY path, definitely not. Personally, I have never upgraded CPU without changing motherboards too, and I don't expect that to change any time soon. None of the people that I have sold computers too and non of my PC lovin' pals do either, but that is just my experience.blkgrffn

I bought a 2800+, and I got a 3500+; that's over $150 USD saving, no? And its Prime95 24hrs stable, so... I think its worth it... Aenslead

Thank you for the comments, guys. Lemme reply to some of these and add some comments...

I say the OEM 3400+ is a good buy for those Joe Sixpacks (with apologies to overclockers.com) looking for a fast system for these reasons:
- True clock speed of 2.4GHz makes for a fast A64.
- $175 for the OEM chip at various vendors including Newegg.
- Not a good idea to overclock a Joe Sixpack machine, so .09 cores are not as important.
- Most Joe Sixpacks do NOT upgrade their systems for many years... by then even socket 939 will be obsolete so lack of upgrade path is not a reason to avoid this chip.
- The 3% performance loss (number pulled from any available orifice) from not being dual channel more than made up for by price difference between this chip and any socket 939 chip that runs 2.4GHz true speed.
- Various motherboards are available for any need, mATX, integrated video, AGP, PCI-E.
- Socket 754 motherboards seem cheaper than socket 939 variants.
- Just toss in a budget 1GB module instead of a pair of 512MB sticks.

Here's a scenario... a friend comes to you asking for help upgrading his/her computer. This friend is on a budget (aren't we all) and only major upgrades once every 3-4 years with minor upgrades in-between. So, what is this 3-4 year old computer patient like? Perhaps P4 on an 845D chipset board or AXP Palamino on KT266A board with slow DDR, perhaps Radeon 8500LE or Geforce3 Ti200 video with a decent power supply and adequate disk drives in an ATX case. This friend needs to keep his upgrade under $300 (his tax refund?) after tax and/or shipping. His/her goals are to have an overall faster machine with some minor upgradability. What do you do? Here's what I would do... 3400+ $175, MSI Nforce4 board with "fake AGP" slot $85, HSF $20, few bucks left over for tax/shipping. This friend would have a CPU that will last another 3-4 years for modest computer needs while re-using all other parts (case/power/drives/RAM/video). Want to upgrade video and RAM with the company bonus check at end of the year? 1GB PC3200 modules are easily under $100 now and may be cheaper then, and switch from AGP to PCI-E video on same board.

Zap...buy a 3400+ S754! Starman

Yes, I did just that today. Not for myself - I already have a 2800+ that runs great at 2.5GHz and will POST at 2.7GHz (who knows about in-between since I haven't messed with it much more). These "AX" Newcastles are pretty decent clockers. My $119 CPU gives those Winchester/Venice chips a run for the money on a $70 Epox board. Back to the CPU I ordered (from Newegg), the chip is for a friend who wanted to upgrade a mATX system that uses a KM800 chipset mATX board in a mATX case. For just under $200 shipped he's getting a nice upgrade. He has a 6800GT video card and 4 hard drives. Other upgrades I'm doing to his system include adding 3 more hard drives and putting a more powerful power supply in (36A on +12v). There will be 2 hard drives bolted to bottom of case and two bolted to side panel. Total of 7 hard drives, 2x160GB SATA, 2x300GB SATA, 3x200GB EIDE. I'll take pics when I'm done and post them here (sometime next week, waiting for parts). It will be the most insane mATX system in a plain looking 17"x14"x7" case.

 

[ND40oz]

Originally posted by: Zap

ND40oz, there are a number of regular ATX sized boards using Nforce4 chipset. You looking for mATX and PCI-E in particular?


I'm looking for a mATX board for a MCE2K5 system. Though I might turn my shuttle into the MCE2k5 system and use this one for gaming. I'd really like to have video integrated and am leaning towards the jetway board, although, they do have a 939 board with 32megs of video ram onboard for $95. I'm kinda torn on which one to buy, on the one hand, the s754 3400+ is a great deal, but I could just get the s939 board with a 3000+ venice and overclock it to 3500+ speeds. The nice thing about the jetway boards are they use the uli southbridge with HD audio and the ati northbridge with MCE2k5 certified video. Perfect for me to use for a MCE2k5 box.