A socialist catastrophe looms on the horizon

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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,409
8,700
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If someone is so inept at managing their money on UBI that they end up involuntarily homeless, they can be classified as mentally disabled to the point that they are required to live in a government facility devoted to such people where the UBI is paid directly to the facility, they are fed/clothed/sheltered, and the remaining balance is given to them to spend as they please.
But they can't buy guns or vote.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,409
8,700
136
Why free the slaves? They wouldn't know what to do with themselves unless a master told them.
Malcolm X (read the autobiography... highly recommend), recalling the days before his conversion and enlightenment, said they would call jobs "slaves" in the northern cities (for him, IIRC, NYC and Boston), because you worked long and hard and you got nowhere, got little more than tired, worn out and depressed with what was available.
 
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Nov 8, 2012
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Ah, I see you don't know what you are talking about. Government is probably even more reactive to change then big businesses. Government agencies are simply handed a budget and it does not matter if it is enough or not, they have to make due with it. There is no going over budget. You run out of money you stop working until Congress gives you more. Practically every year Congress tells the agencies to do more with less, until it hits the breaking point where they literally can't do their job, then Congress gives just a little back. Yes, every now and then an Agency ends up with more money then they need. Trust me they don't waste it, they use it to upgrade badly neglected infrastructure. If they so much as waste 1% of their budget on 'fat' some reporter hears of it and it makes the front page of The NY Times, and Congress demands answers.
Having worked in both private and public sectors, I would say that every company I have ever worked for had much, much, much more fat then any government agency I've worked for.

Wut?

Can you seriously type that load of shit with a serious face on? Tell me that again, with how they are running on age-old infrastructure ? And having archaic web-sites / portals where you can't even submit simple forms or payments electronically?

They are handed a budget largely in part of what it was prior years. Any cuts in budgets they simply stop the work. That isn't what efficiency is little buddy. Efficiency is getting the same tasks done - with less time/money. Not doing the task at all doesn't make you more efficient lol.



As someone that works with, and implements tax solutions for large enterprises - these are all "sunk" costs the way you're framing it. Yes, the department will use that money, I never negated that nor did I argue they wouldn't. I'm telling you flat out that the tasks that are getting completed can continue to be completed for 20% of what is being paid for with a cut in staff-load, manual processes that should be automated, and bureaucracy.

Likewise, what inevitably happens with our software implementations is we go in to present with large tax departments - sometimes with 20+ people, and every single time the subordinates always try to question everything and suggest our solution won't work. On our end - we know the subordinates will do this in an effort to naturally protect their job. Hence why we make sure not to be defensive, but relay the correct messages to the higher-ups. Next thing you know - they bust out hundreds of thousands for our software, and they are then able to axe their tax/accounting departments in half permanently.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,409
8,700
136
You can't limit voting. For any reason.
Ah, but women in the USA were only allowed to vote in 1919. They too can be disenfranchised if the devil get's his way. Never underestimate the craven.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Problem is some of these people can't put 2 and 2 together and get 4. You will get imbalancing due to social programs but imagining what will happen if continued when not needed causing major changes? Things have a way or morphing according to changing conditions. Of course, if you're a reactionary like DJT, you are looking backwards through a telescope.



That sounds like communism: From each according to their ability, to each according to their need. It's always struck me as a silly fairy tale idea. Those words were written something like 150 years ago. I don't think you can show me one instance in those 150 years where this was implemented.

I heard that Jesus said "the poor will always be with us."

There has never been a political system where the poor dont exist.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,286
6,351
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That is no reason to stop trying to put an end to poverty.
If it is true that the poor will always be with us it just means that the need to care for the poor will always be with us. The problem with caring for the poor is that some scramble to acquire all they can of resources that are limited and then turn around and do what they can to keep those resources limited. Stanford just announced they have 11,000 applications for medical school and 90 openings. Why isn't medicine nationalized and made a part of the military with thousands of doctors trained. Isn't it because a limited supply creates high salary? The haves have been trained to be pigs.
 

rmacd02

Senior member
Nov 24, 2015
228
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Moonbeam wrote
The haves have been trained to be pigs.

I have no option, but to agree.

I fall between the haves and the have nots, but life is a struggle if you're not among the haves.

I guess that makes me a have not, after all.
 
Jul 9, 2009
10,728
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Oh yeah, a War on Poverty! Where have i hear that before..........? What a great idea and a sure fire winner with an easy, quick and successful resolution.


Just send me my UBI check please and keep them coming. I'll do everything i can to help fight that WAR!
 

rmacd02

Senior member
Nov 24, 2015
228
219
116
I said nothing about a "War on poverty". I just said that trying to end poverty is not a bad goal.

Do you disagree?
 

PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
3,566
736
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While I agree that the prediction is outlandish to say the least, we are already seeing that the advances in automation and artificial intelligence are steadily eroding the value of human contributions in the production of goods. It may not be too long before even the lower wage jobs (e.g. fast food workers) and high salaried white collar workers start to be displaced. I wonder how distribution of goods will be decided when machines produce everything without human help (i.e. when no one can earn a "living wage" by working). I do not think that the machine owners can keep it all. UBI may not be in our immediate future, but perhaps in our distant future...
 

rmacd02

Senior member
Nov 24, 2015
228
219
116
Powerengineer wrote

I do not think that the machine owners can keep it all. UBI may not be in our immediate future, but perhaps in our distant future.


I believe it may not be in our immediate future, it must be in our not to distant future. If we are to survive.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
4,452
136
Agreed. I was hoping my sarcasm meter would be showing. I know, it was not clear.
2020 has been hard on Sarcameters. Mine has broken so many times I can't even find replacement parts anymore.
I'm having to make due with an old Ironyoscope.


While I agree that the prediction is outlandish to say the least, we are already seeing that the advances in automation and artificial intelligence are steadily eroding the value of human contributions in the production of goods. It may not be too long before even the lower wage jobs (e.g. fast food workers) and high salaried white collar workers start to be displaced. I wonder how distribution of goods will be decided when machines produce everything without human help (i.e. when no one can earn a "living wage" by working). I do not think that the machine owners can keep it all. UBI may not be in our immediate future, but perhaps in our distant future...
I don't think that sort of automation is all that far away. It is here already, truth be told, it is just being implemented slowly. Instead of such automation displacing tens of thousands of jobs all at once, it is displacing a few hundred jobs every week at a slow but steady increasing rate. It falls under the radar of being breaking news, but has a cumulative effect that we will see in the poverty rate. America is getting richer, Americans are getting poorer.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,409
8,700
136
My view:

Well, used to be (some 50 years ago, roughly, very roughly) that people had a job for life, pretty much. I have seen statistics, rough statistics (it's been a while, but they are probably even more convincing now) that nowadays people have maybe 3 different jobs on average over their lives. I'm an outlier, personally, won't go into my own case beyond saying that I'm not a one career guy (broadly speaking).

So, as I see it, the old concept of "this is what I do for a living" is eroding. To survive in the modern world it's a big BIG help to be adaptable, be willing, actually wanting to change... to keep learning, to maybe, probably have to find new ways of thinking, working, adjusting, reinventing yourself, in reality.

The social welfare programs we have will, have to reflect this new reality. And this reality is going to have to continue to develop. There's just no way we can go back to what it was. All this MAGA stuff is IMO for the most part people unable to accept the fact that the America we knew isn't going to come back, we've got to continue to morph along with the rest of the world into new forms of production, systems of all types and levels. The technologies are continuing to evolve/explode. What it is to be human is likewise evolving/exploding. There's really no separating the two.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,225
10,878
136
My view:

Well, used to be (some 50 years ago, roughly, very roughly) that people had a job for life, pretty much. I have seen statistics, rough statistics (it's been a while, but they are probably even more convincing now) that nowadays people have maybe 3 different jobs on average over their lives. I'm an outlier, personally, won't go into my own case beyond saying that I'm not a one career guy (broadly speaking).

So, as I see it, the old concept of "this is what I do for a living" is eroding. To survive in the modern world it's a big BIG help to be adaptable, be willing, actually wanting to change... to keep learning, to maybe, probably have to find new ways of thinking, working, adjusting, reinventing yourself, in reality.

The social welfare programs we have will, have to reflect this new reality. And this reality is going to have to continue to develop. There's just no way we can go back to what it was. All this MAGA stuff is IMO for the most part people unable to accept the fact that the America we knew isn't going to come back, we've got to continue to morph along with the rest of the world into new forms of production, systems of all types and levels. The technologies are continuing to evolve/explode. What it is to be human is likewise evolving/exploding. There's really no separating the two.
I worked for 3 companies, moved once for one, moved 3 times for the last one. I guess I was an early corporate nomad. Not great for marriages.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,409
8,700
136
I worked for 3 companies, moved once for one, moved 3 times for the last one. I guess I was an early corporate nomad. Not great for marriages.
I've had a lot of jobs. Didn't have a line of work until over 50. So, most of those jobs I can't even remember without some rumination. After I learned database programming, well, I was suddenly in some demand, would get calls from head hunters, which was great, and quite a novelty. To say I worked for 30 different companies over the years is just a wild guess... I have no idea what the total really is! Worked temps for over 10 years. Throw in a few government gigs too.

Never wanted to be pigeon-holed, have kind of succeeded in that!

Marriage has eluded me... so far.