A sign of the times how far the Big 3 auto makers have fallen

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Strk
Another major factor in poor resale value is the large sale of fleet vehicles. I know Ford and GM are trying to reduce fleet sales.

As for Chrysler, I find it amusing that only one person mentions that, up until recently, it was owned by Daimler. And Dave, I mentioned it in another thread, Chyrsler doesn't own Smart.

smart
Official site from DaimlerChrysler for the compact ecological European car.

Available from dealers worldwide.
www.smart.com

Who owns it then?

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Strk
Another major factor in poor resale value is the large sale of fleet vehicles. I know Ford and GM are trying to reduce fleet sales.

As for Chrysler, I find it amusing that only one person mentions that, up until recently, it was owned by Daimler. And Dave, I mentioned it in another thread, Chyrsler doesn't own Smart.

smart
Official site from DaimlerChrysler for the compact ecological European car.

Available from dealers worldwide.
www.smart.com

Who owns it then?

Daimler, the company that bought and subsequently sold Chrysler.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Strk
Another major factor in poor resale value is the large sale of fleet vehicles. I know Ford and GM are trying to reduce fleet sales.

As for Chrysler, I find it amusing that only one person mentions that, up until recently, it was owned by Daimler. And Dave, I mentioned it in another thread, Chyrsler doesn't own Smart.

smart
Official site from DaimlerChrysler for the compact ecological European car.

Available from dealers worldwide.
www.smart.com

Who owns it then?

Daimler, the company that bought and subsequently sold Chrysler.

I see that now. OK, forget Chrysler, it's dead too.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Strk
Another major factor in poor resale value is the large sale of fleet vehicles. I know Ford and GM are trying to reduce fleet sales.

As for Chrysler, I find it amusing that only one person mentions that, up until recently, it was owned by Daimler. And Dave, I mentioned it in another thread, Chyrsler doesn't own Smart.

smart
Official site from DaimlerChrysler for the compact ecological European car.

Available from dealers worldwide.
www.smart.com

Who owns it then?

Daimler, the company that bought and subsequently sold Chrysler.

I see that now. OK, forget Chrysler, it's dead too.

Classic.

The difference between Chrysler making it or going belly up? Dave's ignorance.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: spacejamz

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: spacejamz

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: spacejamz

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
5 year terms can be close to lease pricing if done right. There were many times that I talked people out of leasing and into buying when I sold cars. They drove off paying about the same as they would have if they'd have leased and yet they actually own the car.

what do you mean by 'can be close'? monthly payments on financing a car for 5 years vs leasing a car for 3 years shouldn't even be close...

the total of 3 years of payments minus the equity might be close to total of 3 years of lease payments, but you would either have to hassle with selling the car privately or getting low balled at the dealer and you would have been paying 30-45% more out pocket each month for 36 months ...

Uh.. I'm not talking about the advertised leases you see - which obviously are far less than a 5 year term. I'm talking about other vehicles. I've seen it and done it. Many who came in to lease had no idea what they were actually paying for the vehicle - they were buying a payment. Also, I stated close - not equal or less.

on these other vehicles that you are referring to, what kind of numbers (monthly payment, overall out of pocket cost after 3 years, after 5 years, etc) are you talking about that even puts a lease in the same ball park as financing? the whole point of a lease is just to finance the projected value that the car will depreciate over the term of the lease so it should be considerably lower than financing the car outright...either that or you were royally screwing your customers with the lease terms...

I know why the lease was created. Hell, I sold them. I don't care if you don't believe me but I've seen it first hand. For many people and situations - a buying payment was pretty close to what a lease would have been for them.

what kind of cars were you selling, domestic or import? it would not surprise me if the money factor on domestic cars might cause the payments to go up, but not anything close to a lease payment...

can you throw out an example how a finance situation was close to a lease (what kind of car, what was the total monthly lease payments vs total monthly finance payments, etc)?

i don't think their credit would matter because if it was bad, they would be screwed on either leasing or financing...

Both.

Take a current '08 Sebring. 36mo 12K lease. It'll be in the $325-375/mo lease range(~$19K vehicle) with 0 down.(no mfg special finance deals).
Take that same vehicle 19K at 7%, 0 down, 60mo term. You are looking at ~$375/mo.

Does it really matter though? After five years that thing will be worth less than a Big Mac meal (not large-sized, either).

Chrysler like the rest of the domestic manufacturers, is fvcked. The news for them continues to be worse than worse case scenario, they are truly moribund.

Actually the quality of domestics has gone up considerably that they take top rankings on J D Powers rankings but the public perception hasn't caught up.

Doesnt' really matter. By the time perception catches up to the lag of this the domestics will have a tiny morsel of the pie, their last dying breath.

I'll still be happy that profits (if any!), R&D money and expertise remains here as compared to Japanese etc.

You're grasping at straws, domestic manufacturers (which already are only domestic in name only; fords made in Canada, toyotas made in Alabama, what does it even mean anymore?) are looking down the barrel of a gun.

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: waggy
many of the manufactures have been thinking of stoping leasing. There have been a flood of lawsuits. people in a accident with a leased vehicle are suing the manufacter and dealer.

on what grounds are they suing for?

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Have you driven domestics lately? You'll be surprised how good they've become.

Pretty soon, they will be domestic only in name. Ford, GM and Chrysler are moving factories to Mexico as fast as they can get them going (without breaking the bank).

I'll still be happy that profits (if any!), R&D money and expertise remains here as compared to Japanese etc.

The Japanese are pumping R&D dollars into the US and opening up engineering centers, etc. As for profits, I would just assume keep people working regardless of the profits. What good are profits (if any as you say) if the company is investing them in other countries and moving more of what's in the US to the outside (including R&D etc)? None!

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Have you driven domestics lately? You'll be surprised how good they've become.

Pretty soon, they will be domestic only in name. Ford, GM and Chrysler are moving factories to Mexico as fast as they can get them going (without breaking the bank).

I'll still be happy that profits (if any!), R&D money and expertise remains here as compared to Japanese etc.

The Japanese are pumping R&D dollars into the US and opening up engineering centers, etc. As for profits, I would just assume keep people working regardless of the profits. What good are profits (if any as you say) if the company is investing them in other countries and moving more of what's in the US to the outside (including R&D etc)? None!

You're in the industry. Tell me how much percentage of R&D money does Honda spend in the US vs say Ford or Chrysler?

Bear in mind they're essentially global companies.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Actually the quality of domestics has gone up considerably that they take top rankings on J D Powers rankings but the public perception hasn't caught up.

Doesnt' really matter. By the time perception catches up to the lag of this the domestics will have a tiny morsel of the pie, their last dying breath.

Domestic manufacturers aren't going out of business anytime soon. They have a global market where they are big. Heck a large portion of cars sold in Europe are made by companies owned by GM & Ford. At a lower portion is the case in Asia but in China GM is prob no 1.

Public perception is slowly catching up in the US and their share may come down but they will still be huge players in the market.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Have you driven domestics lately? You'll be surprised how good they've become.

Pretty soon, they will be domestic only in name. Ford, GM and Chrysler are moving factories to Mexico as fast as they can get them going (without breaking the bank).

I'll still be happy that profits (if any!), R&D money and expertise remains here as compared to Japanese etc.

The Japanese are pumping R&D dollars into the US and opening up engineering centers, etc. As for profits, I would just assume keep people working regardless of the profits. What good are profits (if any as you say) if the company is investing them in other countries and moving more of what's in the US to the outside (including R&D etc)? None!

You're in the industry. Tell me how much percentage of R&D money does Honda spend in the US vs say Ford or Chrysler?

Bear in mind they're essentially global companies.

Being a supplier doesn't give me extra information other than watching my business go down the tubes (no pun intended since we make automotive tubing) because we were in bed too much with Ford/GM/Chrysler instead of trying to gain marketshare in the "so called foreigns". However, Ford, GM and Chrysler are shifting R&D outside this country, and are using more and more European designs (because they sell well). Their R&D staffs are shrinking in the US as we speak. On the other hand, Toyota and Honda have opened engineering centers in the US and have started designing cars here (Honda Ridgeline was a US design). Throw in the fact that Chrysler (others?) are replacing US engineers/designers with foreigners with H-1B Visas...<barf>

Like I said...Honda, Toyota, Kia, Hyundai are investing money and creating jobs in this country. Ford, GM and Chrysler are not. My preference still stands.

And for the record, I've never bought anything but a Ford, GM or Chrylser labeled product. That might change next time around though. I would buy a Georgetown, KY built Camry before a Mexican built Ford Fusion (and not because I like the Camry better either).

 

[mooseracing]

Chrysler has sucked for over 20yrs now, Lee Iacocca basically got a loan from the governemnt in the early 80's to keep them from going bankrupt then. Chrysler just needs to dissapear like oldsmobile. Even though the guy that started oldsmobile was a great inventor.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Have you driven domestics lately? You'll be surprised how good they've become.

Pretty soon, they will be domestic only in name. Ford, GM and Chrysler are moving factories to Mexico as fast as they can get them going (without breaking the bank).

I'll still be happy that profits (if any!), R&D money and expertise remains here as compared to Japanese etc.

The Japanese are pumping R&D dollars into the US and opening up engineering centers, etc. As for profits, I would just assume keep people working regardless of the profits. What good are profits (if any as you say) if the company is investing them in other countries and moving more of what's in the US to the outside (including R&D etc)? None!

You're in the industry. Tell me how much percentage of R&D money does Honda spend in the US vs say Ford or Chrysler?

Bear in mind they're essentially global companies.

Being a supplier doesn't give me extra information other than watching my business go down the tubes (no pun intended since we make automotive tubing) because we were in bed too much with Ford/GM/Chrysler instead of trying to gain marketshare in the "so called foreigns". However, Ford, GM and Chrysler are shifting R&D outside this country, and are using more and more European designs (because they sell well). Their R&D staffs are shrinking in the US as we speak. On the other hand, Toyota and Honda have opened engineering centers in the US and have started designing cars here (Honda Ridgeline was a US design). Throw in the fact that Chrysler (others?) are replacing US engineers/designers with foreigners with H-1B Visas...<barf>

Like I said...Honda, Toyota, Kia, Hyundai are investing money and creating jobs in this country. Ford, GM and Chrysler are not. My preference still stands.

And for the record, I've never bought anything but a Ford, GM or Chrylser labeled product. That might change next time around though. I would buy a Georgetown, KY built Camry before a Mexican built Ford Fusion (and not because I like the Camry better either).

In this age of global economy I can understand a certain amount of realignment. If the domestics are spending a major portion of their investments & keepings jobs here then I have no problem.

I happily drive a domestic though, sadly, the rest of my family doesn't. There's very few Japanese I find interesting to drive.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
If the domestics are spending a major portion of their investments & keepings jobs here then I have no problem.

That's not currently the situation though. It might be "again" someday, but not now.

 

[piasabird]

There was a Nissan dealership in St. Louis advertising buy one get one free. I wonder how that works? My only guess, is that all cars are so far overpriced that only the manufacturer is getting rich.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: mooseracing
Chrysler has sucked for over 20yrs now, Lee Iacocca basically got a loan from the governemnt in the early 80's to keep them from going bankrupt then. Chrysler just needs to dissapear like oldsmobile. Even though the guy that started oldsmobile was a great inventor.

What Chrysler got was Govt guarantees, not loans. And these loans were paid back much earlier than expected as Chrysler turned around.

Had Chrysler sucked then Mercedes would not have bought it. For a while they were basically living off Chrysler while MB did its restructuring.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: DukeN
Maybe Chrysler (and Ford as well as GM) should innovate and focus on making their products better rather than working solely on the financial, marketing and costcutting sides of running the business. If your product isn't that great, it can't be good for you long term.
Besides, the difference in build quality and reliability between say a Camry/Accord vs say, a Sebring/Impala is pretty significant. I think people have learnt their lessons (you can only get hosed so many times). Not to mention generally worse mileage, and a lower residual value for north american vehicles resulting from the first two factors.

The issue now is people have that mind set and can't see that Ford and GM are producing better vehicles, that are on par with if not better than the imports. Go look at threads about the Toyota Matrix. People rave about them, but throw in the Pontiac Vibe and people say they are shit, but they are the same car built on the same line.

If you want to talk about real world quality of vehicles, look at the new Toyota Tundra. The Japanese poster boy truck. It's a pile of garbage. Cam shafts failing, transmissions failing, tailgates failing under minimal load. Worst fuel economy of the half ton trucks. But it's Japanese so it's automatically better right? I'll stick with my chevy truck, thanks. It will run fine for a long time, and when it starts to run like crap, it will run like crap forever. The imports start running like crap, they throw rods crack heads, ect.

Oh, don't forget the silent buy back that Toyota is doing on ALL 95-00 Toyota Tacomas because the frames were not properly rust proofed. That's cutting corners. Toyota is offering between 100%-150% of blue book value to get them off the road, but only doing it quietly for people that actually find out about it, as they don't want the info that their trucks have a major issue.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: piasabird
There was a Nissan dealership in St. Louis advertising buy one get one free. I wonder how that works? My only guess, is that all cars are so far overpriced that only the manufacturer is getting rich.

I haven't seen that but I did see that Nissan was giving up to 40% off MSRP in Lexington, KY last weekend and up to 45% off MSRP in Charlotte (this weekend) on their SUV's. $22,500 XTerras going for $12,500+/- or so.

 

[miketheidiot]

i thought it was common knowledge that for newer cars, japanese aren't very good anymore.

my next car will probably be a used gm of roughly 2008 model year, when i'm in the market for a new car in about 3 years

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
i thought it was common knowledge that for newer cars, japanese aren't very good anymore.

my next car will probably be a used gm of roughly 2008 model year, when i'm in the market for a new car in about 3 years

Its not so much that Japanese aren't very good, it more that domestics are getting really good. I'm not a Ford fan but I have to give it to them on their newer vehicles. They're put together very well.

A 08 GM will be a good choice. I'm on the lookout for a good 06-07 Jeep myself. (I'm a Jeep nut).

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
i thought it was common knowledge that for newer cars, japanese aren't very good anymore.

my next car will probably be a used gm of roughly 2008 model year, when i'm in the market for a new car in about 3 years

Its not so much that Japanese aren't very good, it more that domestics are getting really good. I'm not a Ford fan but I have to give it to them on their newer vehicles. They're put together very well.

A 08 GM will be a good choice. I'm on the lookout for a good 06-07 Jeep myself. (I'm a Jeep nut).

GM has improved a lot the last 5years or so. But also toyota has slipped. The camery has gotton bad marks and they had the problem with their v8 truck motors for a while, truck frames on the smaller trucks rusting as always, the full size truck is not even a full boxed freame, toyota expanded the truck/suv lines quite a bit and is biteing them, etc...


The last long term relibabilty report had Buick and Lexus tied for 1st and Caddy right behind them.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

The last long term relibabilty report had Buick and Lexus tied for 1st and Caddy right behind them.

Last year (when I had the money), I really "thought" I wanted an ES350. After reading about the ongoing transmission issues (same as the V6 Camry), I gave up on the idea (for now). Love the car looks and feel, but don't want a headache down the road.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
i thought it was common knowledge that for newer cars, japanese aren't very good anymore.

my next car will probably be a used gm of roughly 2008 model year, when i'm in the market for a new car in about 3 years

Its not so much that Japanese aren't very good, it more that domestics are getting really good. I'm not a Ford fan but I have to give it to them on their newer vehicles. They're put together very well.

A 08 GM will be a good choice. I'm on the lookout for a good 06-07 Jeep myself. (I'm a Jeep nut).

GM has improved a lot the last 5years or so. But also toyota has slipped. The camery has gotton bad marks and they had the problem with their v8 truck motors for a while, truck frames on the smaller trucks rusting as always, the full size truck is not even a full boxed freame, toyota expanded the truck/suv lines quite a bit and is biteing them, etc...


The last long term relibabilty report had Buick and Lexus tied for 1st and Caddy right behind them.

Toyota has gone down a lot but Honda and Nissan are still good, and Hyundai has come a long way in their reliability.

Domestics are really good - any brand, but people are still stuck on the stereotypes: domestic bad, Japanese good. Bunch of crap. Over the long term it is cheaper to own a domestic.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
i thought it was common knowledge that for newer cars, japanese aren't very good anymore.

my next car will probably be a used gm of roughly 2008 model year, when i'm in the market for a new car in about 3 years

Its not so much that Japanese aren't very good, it more that domestics are getting really good. I'm not a Ford fan but I have to give it to them on their newer vehicles. They're put together very well.

A 08 GM will be a good choice. I'm on the lookout for a good 06-07 Jeep myself. (I'm a Jeep nut).

GM has improved a lot the last 5years or so. But also toyota has slipped. The camery has gotton bad marks and they had the problem with their v8 truck motors for a while, truck frames on the smaller trucks rusting as always, the full size truck is not even a full boxed freame, toyota expanded the truck/suv lines quite a bit and is biteing them, etc...


The last long term relibabilty report had Buick and Lexus tied for 1st and Caddy right behind them.

Toyota has gone down a lot but Honda and Nissan are still good, and Hyundai has come a long way in their reliability.

Domestics are really good - any brand, but people are still stuck on the stereotypes: domestic bad, Japanese good. Bunch of crap. Over the long term it is cheaper to own a domestic.

Truth be told, Nissan has come a long way with their build quality and reliability. Somehow, for years, Nissan has been able to ride on the tails of their fellow Japanese automakers, yet produce fairly inadequate vehicles. It wasn't until Renault took over that Nissan really was able to improve.