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A Short Story of Honor..... and Pain

a777pilot

Diamond Member
As we start to engage in the silly season, i.e., the election campaign, I would like to re-publish this short story for all those that have served.

For every "name on a wall" there is a real person with a family and group of loved ones that will never ever see that "name on a wall" again.

If only venal old men would not so easily send young men to war.

by LtCol George Goodson, USMC (Ret)


In my 76th year, the events of my life appear to me, from time to time, as
a series of vignettes. Some were significant; most were trivial. War is
the seminal event in the life of everyone that has endured it. Though I
fought in Korea and the Dominican Republic and was wounded there, Vietnam
was my war.

Now 42 years have passed and, thankfully, I rarely think of those days in
Cambodia , Laos , and the panhandle of North Vietnam where small teams of
Americans and Montangards fought much larger elements of the North
Vietnamese Army. Instead I see vignettes: some exotic, some mundane:
*The smell of Nuc Mam.
*The heat, dust, and humidity.
*The blue exhaust of cycles clogging the streets.
*Elephants moving silently through the tall grass.
*Hard eyes behind the servile smiles of the villagers.
*Standing on a mountain in Laos and hearing a tiger roar.
*A young girl squeezing my hand as my medic delivered her baby. *The
flowing Ao Dais of the young women biking down Tran Hung Dao. *My two
years as Casualty Notification Officer in North Carolina , Virginia and
Maryland .

It was late 1967. I had just returned after 18 months in Vietnam .
Casualties were increasing. I moved my family from Indianapolis to
Norfolk , rented a house, enrolled my children in their fifth or sixth new
school, and bought a second car.

A week later, I put on my uniform and drove 10 miles to Little Creek,
Virginia. I hesitated before entering my new office. Appearance is
important to career Marines. I was no longer, if ever, a poster Marine. I
had returned from my third tour in Vietnam only 30 days before. At 5'9", I
now weighed 128 pounds - 37 pounds below my normal weight. My uniforms fit
ludicrously, my skin was yellow from malaria medication, and I think I had
a twitch or two.

I straightened my shoulders, walked into the office, looked at the
nameplate on a Staff Sergeant's desk and said, "Sergeant Jolly, I'm
Lieutenant Colonel Goodson. Here are my orders and my Qualification
Jacket."

Sergeant Jolly stood, looked carefully at me, took my orders, stuck out
his hand; we shook and he asked, "How long were you there, Colonel?" I
replied 18 months this time." Jolly breathed, "You must be a slow learner
Colonel."
I smiled.

Jolly said, "Colonel, I'll show you to your office and bring in the
Sergeant Major. I said, "No, let's just go straight to his office."
Jolly nodded, hesitated, and lowered his voice, "Colonel, the Sergeant
Major. He's been in this job two years. He's packed pretty tight. I'm
worried about him."
I nodded.
Jolly escorted me into the Sergeant Major's office. "Sergeant Major, this
is Colonel Goodson, the new Commanding Office. The Sergeant Major stood,
extended his hand and said, "Good to see you again, Colonel." I responded,
Hello Walt, how are you?" Jolly looked at me, raised an eyebrow, walked
out, and closed the door.

I sat down with the Sergeant Major. We had the obligatory cup of coffee
and talked about mutual acquaintances. Walt's stress was palpable.

Finally, I said, "Walt, what's the hell's wrong?" He turned his chair,
looked out the window and said, "George, you're going to wish you were
back in Nam before you leave here. I've been in the Marine Corps since
1939. I was in the Pacific 36 months, Korea for 14 months, and Vietnam for
12 months. Now I come here to bury these kids. I'm putting my letter in. I
can't take it anymore." I said, "OK Walt. If that's what you want, I'll
endorse your request for retirement and do what I can to push it through
Headquarters Marine Corps."

Sergeant Major Walt Xxxxx retired 12 weeks later. He had been a good
Marine for 28 years, but he had seen too much death and too much
suffering. He was used up.

Over the next 16 months, I made 28 death notifications, conducted 28
military funerals, and made 30 notifications to the families of Marines
that were severely wounded or missing in action. Most of the details of
those casualty notifications have now, thankfully, faded from memory.
Four, however, remain.
MY FIRST NOTIFICATION
My third or fourth day in Norfolk , I was notified of the death of a 19
year old Marine. This notification came by telephone from Headquarters
Marine Corps. The information detailed:
*Name, rank, and serial number.
*Name, address, and phone number of next of kin.
*Date of and limited details about the Marine's death.
*Approximate date the body would arrive at the Norfolk Naval Air Station.
*A strong recommendation on whether the casket should be opened or closed.
The boy's family lived over the border in North Carolina , about 60 miles
away. I drove there in a Marine Corps staff car. Crossing the state line
into North Carolina , I stopped at a small country store / service
station / Post Office. I went in to ask directions.
Three people were in the store.. A man and woman approached the small Post
Office window. The man held a package. The Store owner walked up and
addressed them by name, "Hello John. Good morning Mrs. Cooper."
I was stunned. My casualty's next-of-kin's name was John Cooper!
I hesitated, then stepped forward and said, "I beg your pardon. Are you
Mr. and Mrs. John Cooper of (address.)

The father looked at me - I was in uniform - and then, shaking, bent at
the waist, he vomited. His wife looked horrified at him and then at me.

Understanding came into her eyes and she collapsed in slow motion. I think
I caught her before she hit the floor.

The owner took a bottle of whiskey out of a drawer and handed it to Mr.
Cooper who drank. I answered their questions for a few minutes. Then I
drove them home in my staff car. The storeowner locked the store and
followed in their truck. We stayed an hour or so until the family began
arriving.

I returned the store owner to his business. He thanked me and said,
"Mister, I wouldn't have your job for a million dollars." I shook his hand
and said; Neither would I."

I vaguely remember the drive back to Norfolk . Violating about five Marine
Corps regulations, I drove the staff car straight to my house. I sat with
my family while they ate dinner, went into the den, closed the door, and
sat there all night, alone.
My Marines steered clear of me for days. I had made my first death
notification.

THE FUNERALS
Weeks passed with more notifications and more funerals. I borrowed Marines
from the local Marine Corps Reserve and taught them to conduct a military
funeral: how to carry a casket, how to fire the volleys and how to fold
the flag.

When I presented the flag to the mother, wife, or father, I always said,
All Marines share in your grief." I had been instructed to say, "On behalf
of a grateful nation...." I didn't think the nation was grateful, so I
didn't say that.

Sometimes, my emotions got the best of me and I couldn't speak. When that
happened, I just handed them the flag and touched a shoulder. They would
look at me and nod. Once a mother said to me, "I'm so sorry you have this
terrible job." My eyes filled with tears and I leaned over and kissed her.

ANOTHER NOTIFICATION
Six weeks after my first notification, I had another. This was a young
PFC.
I drove to his mother's house. As always, I was in uniform and driving a
Marine Corps staff car. I parked in front of the house, took a deep
breath, and walked towards the house. Suddenly the door flew open, a
middle-aged woman rushed out. She looked at me and ran across the yard,
screaming "NO! NO! NO! NO!"

I hesitated. Neighbors came out. I ran to her, grabbed her, and whispered
stupid things to reassure her. She collapsed. I picked her up and carried
her into the house. Eight or nine neighbors followed. Ten or fifteen
later, the father came in followed by ambulance personnel. I have no
recollection of leaving.

The funeral took place about two weeks later. We went through the drill.
The mother never looked at me. The father looked at me once and shook his
head sadly.

ANOTHER NOTIFICATION
One morning, as I walked in the office, the phone was ringing. Sergeant
Jolly held the phone up and said, "You've got another one, Colonel." I
nodded, walked into my office, picked up the phone, took notes, thanked
the officer making the call, I have no idea why, and hung up. Jolly, who
had listened, came in with a special Telephone Directory that translates
telephone numbers into the person's address and place of employment.
The father of this casualty was a Longshoreman. He lived a mile from my
office. I called the Longshoreman's Union Office and asked for the
Business Manager. He answered the phone, I told him who I was, and asked
for the father's schedule.
The Business Manager asked, "Is it his son?" I said nothing. After a
moment, he said, in a low voice, "Tom is at home today." I said, "Don't
call him.
I'll take care of that." The Business Manager said, "Aye, Aye Sir," and
then explained, "Tom and I were Marines in WWII."
I got in my staff car and drove to the house. I was in uniform. I knocked
and a woman in her early forties answered the door. I saw instantly that
she was clueless. I asked, "Is Mr. Smith home?" She smiled pleasantly and
responded, "Yes, but he's eating breakfast now. Can you come back later?"

I said, "I'm sorry. It's important. I need to see him now."
She nodded, stepped back into the beach house and said, "Tom, it's for
you."
A moment later, a ruddy man in his late forties, appeared at the door.
He looked at me, turned absolutely pale, steadied himself, and said,
"Jesus Christ man, he's only been there three weeks!"

Months passed. More notifications and more funerals. Then one day while I
was running, Sergeant Jolly stepped outside the building and gave a loud
whistle, two fingers in his mouth... I never could do that . and held an
imaginary phone to his ear.
Another call from Headquarters Marine Corps. I took notes, said, "Got it."
and hung up. I had stopped saying "Thank You" long ago.
Jolly, "Where?"
Me, "Eastern Shore of Maryland . The father is a retired Chief Petty
Officer.
His brother will accompany the body back from Vietnam ."

Jolly shook his head slowly, straightened, and then said, "This time of
day, it'll take three hours to get there and back. I'll call the Naval Air
Station and borrow a helicopter. And I'll have Captain Tolliver get one of
his men to meet you and drive you to the Chief's home."
He did, and 40 minutes later, I was knocking on the father's door. He
opened the door, looked at me, then looked at the Marine standing at
parade rest beside the car, and asked, "Which one of my boys was it,
Colonel?"

I stayed a couple of hours, gave him all the information, my office and
home phone number and told him to call me, anytime.
He called me that evening about 2300 (11:00PM). "I've gone through my
boy's papers and found his will. He asked to be buried at sea. Can you
make that happen?" I said, "Yes I can, Chief. I can and I will."

My wife who had been listening said, "Can you do that?" I told her, "I
have no idea. But I'm going to break my [censored] trying."
I called Lieutenant General Alpha Bower, Commanding General, Fleet Marine
Force Atlantic, at home about 2330, explained the situation, and asked,
General, can you get me a quick appointment with the Admiral at Atlantic
Fleet Headquarters?" General Boser said," George, you be there tomorrow at
0900. He will see you.

I was and the Admiral did. He said coldly, "How can the Navy help the
Marine Corps, Colonel." I told him the story. He turned to his Chief of
Staff and said, "Which is the sharpest destroyer in port?" The Chief of
Staff responded with a name.
The Admiral called the ship, "Captain, you're going to do a burial at sea.
You'll report to a Marine Lieutenant Colonel Goodson until this mission is
completed."
He hung up, looked at me, and said, "The next time you need a ship,
Colonel, call me. You don't have to sic Al Bowser on my [censored]." I responded,
"Aye Aye, Sir" and got the hell out of his office.

I went to the ship and met with the Captain, Executive Officer, and the
Senior Chief. Sergeant Jolly and I trained the ship's crew for four days.

Then Jolly raised a question none of us had thought of. He said, "These
government caskets are air tight. How do we keep it from floating?"

All the high priced help including me sat there looking dumb. Then the
Senior Chief stood and said, "Come on Jolly. I know a bar where the
retired guys from World War II hang out."

They returned a couple of hours later, slightly the worst for wear, and
said "It's simple; we cut four 12" holes in the outer shell of the casket
on each side and insert 300 lbs of lead in the foot end of the casket. We
can handle that, no sweat."
The day arrived. The ship and the sailors looked razor sharp. General
Bowser the Admiral, a US Senator, and a Navy Band were on board. The
sealed casket was brought aboard and taken below for modification. The
ship got underway to the 12-fathom depth.
The sun was hot. The ocean flat. The casket was brought aft and placed on
a catafalque. The Chaplin spoke. The volleys were fired. The flag was
removed, folded, and I gave it to the father. The band played "Eternal
Father Strong to Save." The casket was raised slightly at the head and it
slid into the sea.

The heavy casket plunged straight down about six feet. The incoming water
collided with the air pockets in the outer shell. The casket stopped
abruptly, rose straight out of the water about three feet, stopped, and
slowly slipped back into the sea. The air bubbles rising from the sinking
casket sparkled in the in the sunlight as the casket disappeared from
sight forever.

The next morning I called a personal friend, Lieutenant General Oscar
Peatross, at Headquarters Marine Corps and said, "General, get me out of
here. I can't take this anymore." I was transferred two weeks later.

I was a good Marine but, after 17 years, I had seen too much death and too
much suffering. I was used up.

Vacating the house, my family and I drove to the office in a two-car
convoy.
I said my goodbyes. Sergeant Jolly walked out with me. He waved at my
family looked at me with tears in his eyes, came to attention, saluted,
and said, Well Done, Colonel. Well Done."
I felt as if I had received the Medal of Honor.

A veteran is someone who, at one point, wrote a blank check made payable
to The United States of America' for an amount of 'up to and including
their life.'
That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no
longer understand it.

S/F
 
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War is the ritualized expression of self hate externalized, where we try to make the other guy feel our pain, and he does the same thing back.

There is only love and the angry rage and regret of those who have lost it.

We are all the same and look what we do to each other.
 
To the two posters just before this post......that would be Moonbeam and Original Earl:

I did say this for all those that have served, did I not?
 
We have two narratives here, it somewhat hard to buy the idea that A777pilot has an iota of foreign policy wisdom.

But when somehow the hypothesis that Sarah Palin has any concept of honor, this thread goes down the toilet totally. Oh God yeech yuch, the idea that Sarah Palin has any track record of honor, is a total contradiction in terms. And when the going got tough, Sarah Palin quit her job.
 
To the two posters just before this post......that would be Moonbeam and Original Earl:

I did say this for all those that have served, did I not?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK A777pilot, you may able say you served in Vietnam, but when you only served to further advance the policies of total idiots without questioning those policies, sorry charlie, I am not impressed with your slavish devotion to sure to lose idiotic policy.

As I can only conclude you were an idiot 35 years ago, and have not learned a damn thing ever since.

Maybe you would have a right to puff up your chest in pride if your behavior had not made the USA win second place in a Beauty contest with the Vietcong in Vietnam. As others on this thread point out, we pissed away 58,000 American lives in Vietnam and have absolutely nothing to show for it.

And now younger US gung ho idiots are trying the same stunt in Afghanistan and Iraq, and duplicating your track record of success in how to lose a military occupation.

Pardon me, A777pilot, the very next time I want to see the USA country I love bleed money, blood and treasure, I will call on your experience. But since I advocate a more rational US foreign policy, hell will freeze over before before I call on a pseudo American patriot like you. With American friends like you we don't need enemies as your stinking thinking keeps Al-Quida recruitment centers filled.
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK A777pilot, you may able say you served in Vietnam, but when you only served to further advance the policies of total idiots without questioning those policies, sorry charlie, I am not impressed with your slavish devotion to sure to lose idiotic policy.

As I can only conclude you were an idiot 35 years ago, and have not learned a damn thing ever since.

Maybe you would have a right to puff up your chest in pride if your behavior had not made the USA win second place in a Beauty contest with the Vietcong in Vietnam. As others on this thread point out, we pissed away 58,000 American lives in Vietnam and have absolutely nothing to show for it.

And now younger US gung ho idiots are trying the same stunt in Afghanistan and Iraq, and duplicating your track record of success in how to lose a military occupation.

Pardon me, A777pilot, the very next time I want to see the USA country I love bleed money, blood and treasure, I will call on your experience. But since I advocate a more rational US foreign policy, hell will freeze over before before I call on a pseudo American patriot like you. With American friends like you we don't need enemies as your stinking thinking keeps Al-Quida recruitment centers filled.

WTF is wrong with you? Did the point of the OP totally fly over your head?
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK A777pilot, you may able say you served in Vietnam, but when you only served to further advance the policies of total idiots without questioning those policies, sorry charlie, I am not impressed with your slavish devotion to sure to lose idiotic policy.

As I can only conclude you were an idiot 35 years ago, and have not learned a damn thing ever since.

Maybe you would have a right to puff up your chest in pride if your behavior had not made the USA win second place in a Beauty contest with the Vietcong in Vietnam. As others on this thread point out, we pissed away 58,000 American lives in Vietnam and have absolutely nothing to show for it.

And now younger US gung ho idiots are trying the same stunt in Afghanistan and Iraq, and duplicating your track record of success in how to lose a military occupation.

Pardon me, A777pilot, the very next time I want to see the USA country I love bleed money, blood and treasure, I will call on your experience. But since I advocate a more rational US foreign policy, hell will freeze over before before I call on a pseudo American patriot like you. With American friends like you we don't need enemies as your stinking thinking keeps Al-Quida recruitment centers filled.

What the hell is the matter with you? First you start spouting off about Palin for no discernable reason, then you attack the OP while twisting the point of the story.
 
LL

Blame the leadership - not the people that made it possible for you to spew your bile.
 
I agree.

Thank you Lyndon Baines Johnson, you incredible piece of shit, arrogant, bully. If you had listened to your Joint Chiefs of Staff in 1965 all of this would not have happened.

Wrong. Actually, it was because, unlike JFK, he DID listen to the JCS, giving them what they asked for.
 
Wrong. Actually, it was because, unlike JFK, he DID listen to the JCS, giving them what they asked for.

Oh, how wrong you are.

Would you believe a Marine Corps General? I will post his words if you want.

Read and learn:

Vietnam 1965: The Day It Became the Longest War


The following is the Introduction to the book "Cheers and Tears: a Marine's Story of Combat in Peace and War " by Lt. Gen. Charles Cooper, USMC (Ret.) with Richard Goodspeed (Trafford Publishing, 2006). The book is available at Amazon dot com and many book retailers. This chapter was provided by Lt. Gen. Cooper for posting.

The Day It Became the Longest War
“The President will see you at two o'clock.”

It was a beautiful fall day in November of 1965, early in the Vietnam War-too beautiful a day to be what many of us, anticipating it, had been calling “the day of reckoning.” We didn't know how accurate that label would be.

The Pentagon is a busy place. Its workday starts early-especially if, as the expression goes, “there's a war on.” By seven o'clock, the staff of Admiral David L. McDonald, the Navy's senior admiral and Chief of Naval Operations, had started to work. Shortly after seven, Admiral McDonald arrived and began making final preparations for a meeting with President Lyndon Baines Johnson.

The Vietnam War was in its first year, and its uncertain direction troubled Admiral McDonald and the other service chiefs. They'd had a number of disagreements with Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara about strategy, and had finally requested a private meeting with the Commander in Chief-a perfectly legitimate procedure. Now, after many delays, the Joint Chiefs were finally to have that meeting. They hoped it would determine whether the US military would con¬tinue its seemingly directionless buildup to fight a protracted ground war, or take bold measures that would bring the war to an early and victorious end.

The bold measures they would propose were to apply massive air power to the head of the enemy, Hanoi, and to close North Vietnam's harbors by mining them.The situation was not a simple one, and for several reasons. The most important reason was that North Vietnam's neighbor to the north was communist China.

Only 12 years had passed since the Korean War had ended in stalemate. The aggressors in that war had been the North Koreans. When the North Koreans' defeat had appeared to be inevitable, communist China had sent hundreds of thousands of its Peoples' Liberation Army “volunteers” to the rescue.

Now, in this new war, the North Vietnamese aggressor had the logistic support of the Soviet Union and, more to the point, of neighboring communist China. Although we had the air and naval forces with which to paralyze North Vietnam, we had to consider the possible reactions of the Chinese and the Russians.Both China and the Soviet Union had pledged to support North Vietnam in the “war of national liberation” it was fighting to reunite the divided country, and both had the wherewithal to cause major problems.

An important unknown was what the Russians would do if prevented from delivering goods to their communist protege in Hanoi. A more important question concerned communist China, next-door neighbor to North Vietnam. How would the Chinese react to a massive pummeling of their ally? More specifically, would they enter the war as they had done in North Korea? Or would they let the Vietnamese, for centuries a traditional enemy, fend for themselves?

The service chiefs had considered these and similar questions, and had also asked the Central Intelligence Agency for answers and estimates.

The CIA was of little help, though it produced reams of text, executive summaries of the texts, and briefs of the executive summaries-all top secret, all extremely sensitive, and all of little use.

The principal conclusion was that it was impossible to predict with any accuracy what the Chinese or Russians might do.Despite the lack of a clear-cut intelligence estimate, Admiral McDonald and the other Joint Chiefs did what they were paid to do and reached a conclusion. They decided unanimously that the risk of the Chinese or Soviets reacting to massive US measures taken in North Viet¬nam was acceptably low, but only if we acted without delay. Unfortunately, the Secretary of Defense and his coterie of civilian “whiz kids” did not agree with the Joint Chiefs, and McNamara and his people were the ones who were actually steering military strategy.

In the view of the Joint Chiefs, the United States was piling on forces in Vietnam without understanding the consequences. In the view of McNamara and his civilian team, we were doing the right thing. This was the fundamental dispute that had caused the Chiefs to request the seldom-used private audience with the Commander in Chief in order to present their military recommendations directly to him. McNamara had finally granted their request.

The 1965 Joint Chiefs of Staff had ample combat experience. Each was serving in his third war.

The Chairman was General Earle Wheeler, US Army, highly regarded by the other members.

General Harold Johnson was the Army Chief of Staff. A World War II prisoner of the Japanese, he was a soft-spoken, even-tempered, deeply religious man.

General John P. McConnell, Air Force Chief of Staff, was a native of Arkansas and a 1932 graduate of West Point.

The Commandant of the Marine Corps was General Wallace M. Greene, Jr., a slim, short, all-business Marine. General Greene was a Naval Academy graduate and a zealous protector of the Marine Corps concept of controlling its own air resources as part of an in¬tegrated air-ground team.

Last and by no means least was Admiral McDonald, a Georgia minister's son, also a Naval Academy graduate, and a naval aviator. While Admiral McDonald was a most capable leader, he was also a reluctant warrior. He did not like what he saw emerging as a national commitment. He did not really want the US to get involved with land warfare, believing as he did that the Navy could apply sea power against North Vietnam very effectively by mining, blockading, and assisting in a bombing cam¬paign, and in this way help to bring the war to a swift and satisfactory conclusion.

The Joint Chiefs intended that the prime topics of the meeting with the President would be naval matters-the mining and blockad¬ing of the port of Haiphong and naval support of a bomb¬ing campaign aimed at Hanoi. For that reason, the Navy was to furnish a briefing map, and that became my responsibility. We mounted a suitable map on a large piece of plywood, then coated it with clear acetate so that the chiefs could mark on it with grease pencils during the discussion. The whole thing weighed about 30 pounds.

The Military Office at the White House agreed to set up an easel in the Oval Office to hold the map. I would accompany Admiral McDonald to the White House with the map, put the map in place when the meeting started, then get out. There would be no strap-hangers at the military summit meeting with Lyndon Johnson.The map and I joined Admiral McDonald in his staff car for the short drive to the White House, a drive that was memorable only because of the silence. My admiral was totally preoccupied.

The chiefs' appointment with the President was for two o'clock, and Admiral McDonald and I arrived about 20 minutes early. The chiefs were ushered into a fairly large room across the hall from the Oval Office. I propped the map board on the arms of a fancy chair where all could view it, left two of the grease pencils in the tray attached to the bottom of the board, and stepped out into the corridor. One of the chiefs shut the door, and they conferred in private until someone on the White House staff interrupted them about fifteen minutes later.

As they came out, I retrieved the map, then joined them in the corridor out¬side the President's office. Precisely at two o'clock President Johnson emerged from the Oval Office and greeted the chiefs. He was all charm. He was also big: at three or more inches over six feet tall and something on the order of 250 pounds, he was bigger than any of the chiefs. He personally ushered them into his office, all the while delivering gracious and solicitous comments with a Texas accent far more pronounced than the one that came through when he spoke on television. Holding the map board as the chiefs entered, I peered between them, trying to find the easel. There was none. The President looked at me, grasped the situation at once, and invited me in, adding, “You can stand right over here.” I had become an easel-one with eyes and ears.

To the right of the door, not far inside the office, large windows framed evergreen bushes growing in a nearby garden. The President's desk and several chairs were farther in, diagonally across the room from the windows. The President positioned me near the windows, then arranged the chiefs in a semicircle in front of the map and its human easel.

He did not offer them seats: they stood, with those who were to speak-Wheeler, McDonald, and McConnell-standing nearest the President. Paradoxically, the two whose services were most affected by a continuation of the ground buildup in Vietnam-Generals Johnson and Greene-stood farthest from the President. President Johnson stood nearest the door, about five feet from the map.

In retrospect, the setup-the failure to have an easel in place, the positioning of the chiefs on the outer fringe of the office, the lack of seating-did not augur well. The chiefs had expected the meeting to be a short one, and it met that expectation. They also expected it to be of momentous import, and it met that expectation, too. Unfortunately, it also proved to be a meeting that was critical to the proper pursuit of what was to become the longest, most divisive, and least conclu¬sive war in our nation's history-a war that almost tore the nation apart.As General Wheeler started talking, President Johnson peered at the map. In five minutes or so, the general summarized our entry into Vietnam, the current status of forces, and the purpose of the meeting. Then he thanked the President for having given his senior military advisers the opportunity to present their opin¬ions and recommendations. Finally, he noted that although Secretary McNamara did not subscribe to their views, he did agree that a presidential-level decision was required. President Johnson, arms crossed, seemed to be listening carefully.The essence of General Wheeler's presentation was that we had come to an early moment of truth in our ever-increasing Vietnam involvement. We had to start using our principal strengths-air and naval power-to punish the North Vietnamese, or we would risk becoming involved in another protracted Asian ground war with no prospects of a satisfactory solution.

Speaking for the chiefs, General Wheeler offered a bold course of action that would avoid protracted land warfare. He proposed that we isolate the major port of Haiphong through naval mining, blockade the rest of the North Vietnamese coastline, and simultaneously start bombing Hanoi with B-52's.General Wheeler then asked Admiral McDonald to describe how the Navy and Air Force would combine forces to mine the waters off Haiphong and establish a naval blockade. When Admiral McDonald finished, General McConnell added that speed of exe¬cution would be essential, and that we would have to make the North Vietnamese believe that we would increase the level of punishment if they did not sue for peace.

Normally, time dims our memories-but it hasn't dimmed this one. My memory of Lyndon Johnson on that day remains crystal clear. While General Wheeler, Admiral McDon¬ald, and General McConnell spoke, he seemed to be listening closely, communicating only with an occasional nod. When General McConnell finished, General Wheeler asked the President if he had any questions. Johnson waited a moment or so, then turned to Generals Johnson and Greene, who had remained silent during the briefing, and asked, “Do you fully support these ideas?”

He followed with the thought that it was they who were providing the ground troops, in effect acknowledging that the Army and the Marines were the services that had most to gain or lose as a result of this discussion. Both generals indicated their agreement with the proposal. Seemingly deep in thought, President Johnson turned his back on them for a minute or so, then suddenly discarding the calm, patient demeanor he had maintained throughout the meeting, whirled to face them and exploded.I almost dropped the map.

He screamed obscenities, he cursed them personally, he ridiculed them for coming to his office with their “military advice.” Noting that it was he who was carrying the weight of the free world on his shoulders, he called them filthy names-shitheads, dumb shits, pompous assholes-and used “the F-word” as an adjective more freely than a Marine in boot camp would use it. He then accused them of trying to pass the buck for World War III to him.

It was unnerving, degrading.

After the tantrum, he resumed the calm, relaxed manner he had displayed earlier and again folded his arms. It was as though he had punished them, cowed them, and would now control them. Using soft-spoken pro¬fanities, he said something to the effect that they all knew now that he did not care about their military advice.

After disparaging their abilities, he added that he did expect their help.

He suggested that each one of them change places with him and assume that five incompetents had just made these “military recommendations.” He told them that he was going to let them go through what he had to go through when idiots gave him stupid advice, adding that he had the whole damn world to worry about, and it was time to “see what kind of guts you have.”

He paused, as if to let it sink in. The silence was like a palpable solid, the tension like that in a drumhead. After thirty or forty seconds of this, he turned to General Wheeler and demanded that Wheeler say what he would do if he were the President of the United States.

General Wheeler took a deep breath before answering. He was not an easy man to shake: his calm response set the tone for the others. He had known coming in, as had the others, that Lyndon Johnson was an exceptional¬ly strong personality, and a venal and vindictive man as well. He had known that the stakes were high, and now realized that McNamara had prepared Johnson carefully for this meeting, which had been a charade.

Looking President Johnson squarely in the eye, Gen¬eral Wheeler told him that he understood the tremendous pressure and sense of responsibility Johnson felt. He added that probably no other President in history had had to make a decision of this importance, and further cushioned his remarks by saying that no mat¬ter how much about the presidency he did understand, there were many things about it that only one human being could ever understand.

General Wheeler closed his remarks by saying something very close to this: “You, Mr. President, are that one human being. I can¬not take your place, think your thoughts, know all you know, and tell you what I would do if I were you. I can't do it, Mr. President. No man can honestly do it. Respectfully, sir, it is your decision and yours alone.”

Apparently unmoved, Johnson asked each of the other Chiefs the same question. One at a time, they supported General Wheeler and his rationale. By now, my arms felt as though they were about to break. The map seemed to weigh a ton, but the end appeared to be near. General Greene was the last to speak.When General Greene finished, President Johnson, who was nothing if not a skilled actor, looked sad for a moment, then suddenly erupted again, yelling and cursing, again using language that even a Marine seldom hears. He told them he was disgusted with their naive approach, and that he was not going to let some military idiots talk him into World War III. He ended the conference by shouting “Get the hell out of my office!”

The Joint Chiefs of Staff had done their duty. They knew that the nation was making a strategic military error, and despite the rebuffs of their civilian masters in the Pentagon, they had insisted on presenting the problem as they saw it to the highest authority and recommending solutions. They had done so, and they had been rebuffed. That authority had not only rejected their solutions, but had also insulted and demeaned them.

As Admiral McDonald and I drove back to the Pentagon, he turned to me and said that he had known tough days in his life, and sad ones as well, but “. . . this has got to have been the worst experience I could ever imagine.”

The US involvement in Vietnam lasted another ten years.

The irony is that it began to end only when Presi¬dent Richard Nixon, after some backstage maneuvering on the international scene, did precisely what the Joint Chiefs of Staff had recommended to President Johnson in 1965. Why had Johnson not only dismissed their recommendations, but also ridiculed them? It must have been that Johnson had lacked something. Maybe it was foresight or boldness. Maybe it was the sophistication and under¬standing it took to deal with complex international is¬sues. Or, since he was clearly a bully, maybe what he lacked was courage. We will never know.

But had General Wheeler and the others received a fair hearing, and had their recommendations received serious study, the United States may well have saved the lives of most of its more than 55,000 sons who died in a war that its major architect, Robert Strange McNamara, now considers to have been a tragic mistake.



Now to be fair if LBJ had listened to his Joint Chiefs of Staff we would not have had that long a bloody war.

BUT................

If JFK had listened to his Joint Chiefs of Staff in 1962 the USA would have ceased to exist as it is today and there would have been tens of millions of dead Americans.

Interesting business leadership and command, isn't it. Those of us that survive, years later get to second guess those that did not have that luxury.
 
Wrong. Actually, it was because, unlike JFK, he DID listen to the JCS, giving them what they asked for.

as always, wrong again.

Here is just one example of the reason why the Vietnam War was conducted.
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj01/spr01/kamps.pdf

Civilian leadership sets policy, objectives for any war. Given those objectives, the US military develops a force structure to meet those objectives. So don't blame the JCS, our civilian leadership is always the primary accountable level.
 
The Vietnamese were not a threat to Americans' free speech.

The knee jerk claim every military operation is about a threat to Americans' rights is a lie.

And who is making the claim?

The UNITED STATES Military does not go generating operations on it's own.

It operates under the direction of the civilian political leadership.

The political leadership is flawed and when instructing the military to do its job; starts meddling.

FDR/Truman w/ respect to WWII was a solid example - give a objective and turn them loose.
Bush Sr w/ respect to Gulf War I was a good example.

LBJ/Nixon w/ respect to Vietnam is an good example of meddling
Bush Jr, Obama are other good examples of political decisions meddling
 
A very touching story about maybe a part of joint chiefs of staff who were already in the Vietnam war for a year.

But still, when the public asks, you have to have a cover story for failure, because as they say, success has many Fathers and failure is an orphan.

But stories about our deeply honorable and religious JCS don't quite hold up when we later find, in the pentagon papers, those self same men told the press how well the Vietnam war was going when they knew full well they were telling the public total lies.

But triple AAA, if it makes you feel any better, I can blame the JCS, LBJ, Nixon , and a whole bunch of idiots for a war in Vietnam we should have never fought. Let's never let failure be an orphan. But the JCS was in up to their eyeballs and still saw the light at the end of the tunnel.
 
<snip>
But the JCS was in up to their eyeballs and still saw the light at the end of the tunnel.

The UNITED STATES Military operates under the direction of the civilian political leadership.

Your vaulted civilian leadership failed; LBJ, McNamara.

They failed to listen to the military advice on how to prosecute a war.
 
The Vietnamese were threatening to attack Texas because of dominoes. People must have been really scared. Fear and rational thought don't go too well together. In fact patriotism and worship of anything can blind people.
 
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