A real-world example of the cost of climate change

[shira]

Norfolk, VA is now seeing high tides that rise higher than at any other time in the history of the city:

Norfolk exists because of the sea. Ships have been built in its harbors since the Revolutionary War. It is home to the largest naval base on the globe. Bounded by the Chesapeake Bay and two rivers, sliced by coastal creeks, Norfolk has always been vulnerable to flooding. But over the past decade, people began noticing alarming trends.

Hurricanes and nor’easters became more frequent and more damaging. Even ordinary rainstorms swamped intersections, washed away parked cars and marooned the region’s major medical center. Before 1980, the inlet near the Chrysler Museum, known as the Hague, had never flooded for more than 100 hours in a year. By 2009, it was routinely flooded for 200 and even 300 hours a year.

The city hired a Dutch consulting firm to develop an action plan, finalized in 2012, that called for new flood gates, higher roads and a retooled storm water system. Implementing the plan would cost more than $1 billion — the size of the city’s entire annual budget — and protect Norfolk from about a foot of additional water.

As the city was contemplating that enormous price tag, the Virginia Institute of Marine Science (VIMS) last year delivered more bad news: If current trends hold, VIMS scientists said, by the end of this century, the sea in Norfolk would rise by 5 1/2 feet or more.

“People right now are having trouble getting their arms around what needs to be done. And no one can fathom what it’s going to cost,” said City Councilwoman Theresa Whibley, who represents many pricey waterfront neighborhoods, including the Hague, where the plan calls for floodgates to block the surging tide.

“When we’re talking about floodgates and building bulkheads, then you’re talking about the big bucks that even the feds don’t have. And then you’re competing with New York, Miami — even Hampton.” Whibley paused. “I don’t sound very optimistic, do I?”

Climate change isn't the only contributor to Norfolk's seal-level-rise woes. Changes in the behavior of the Gulf Stream have magnified the climate-change-induced sea-level rise and a Norfolk's sinking landmass has exacerbated the problem. But climate change is the basic problem, and Norfolk is particularly vulnerable.

You can read the full story yourself. Norfolk is just a taste of what coastal areas in the U.S. and the rest of the world will increasingly face in the coming decades. These are the REAL costs of "doing nothing" about climate change. Of "waiting to get more information." Of "it's just a hoax."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/in-norfolk-evidence-of-climate-change-is-in-the-streets-at-high-tide/2014/05/31/fe3ae860-e71f-11e3-8f90-73e071f3d637_story.html?hpid=z2

 

[michal1980]

LOL

Please tell me what the USA can do to stop this?

Are you going to tell China, India, and every 2nd and 3rd world country they need to stop growing and using more energy?

 

[Jaskalas]

Like many other cities, Norfolk was built on filled-in marsh. Now that fill is settling and compacting. In addition, the city is in an area where significant natural sinking of land is occurring. The result is that Norfolk has experienced the highest relative increase in sea level on the East Coast — 14.5 inches since 1930

Nice of you to cherry pick the most extreme example.

These are the REAL costs of "doing nothing" about climate change.

Didn't you get the memo? We're already 400ppm. According to your side the sea level is already guaranteed. We just have to wait for the ice to melt at present CO2 levels. So... stopping 100% of all emissions immediately wouldn't even change this.

 

[shira]

Like many other cities, Norfolk was built on filled-in marsh. Now that fill is settling and compacting. In addition, the city is in an area where significant natural sinking of land is occurring. The result is that Norfolk has experienced the highest relative increase in sea level on the East Coast — 14.5 inches since 1930

Nice of you to cherry pick the most extreme example

Congratulations: your points merely repeat what I wrote in my own post. The fact the Norfolk is particularly vulnerable is the reason it's the FIRST city facing this problem, and in no way negates the message that this is what's coming for other coastal areas in America and elsewhere.

In effect, you're arguing that because Norfolk is the first area affected, it's an invalid example.

 

[biostud]

It's good for construction companies

 

[boomerang]

Sooner or later fanatics like shira, after swaying enough simple-minded folks, may gain enough power to thrust their hands very, very deep into our pockets. The money will mostly go to make very rich people very much richer and lo and behold the "problem" of climate change will be mitigated and everything occurring will then be due to natural causes. Explained by the cycles the Earth has gone through since it was formed. That explanation will be accepted for we will have truly done "something" and man in his infinite wisdom will have fixed the problem. That is what simple minded folks will be taught and what simple minded folks will believe.

The planet is ever changing. Humans cannot control the ebb and flow of the oceans, the movement of tectonic plates, the erosion of our coastlines, the gravitational pull of the moon, the orbit of the Earth, the shifting of Earth on it's axis, the cycles of our Sun. Ancient man devised religion to help him cope with that which he could not understand. Make no mistake, climate alarmists have their own religious cult going on. Their weak minds have been manipulated into thinking that man can control the climate of the Earth and that it must be done or man will perish! And there must be human sacrifices to make it all better. Your lifestyle must be sacrificed either through financial methods or physical methods. The climate change God must be appeased!

We cannot control the climate despite what your religion tells you climate alarmists. Your thought processes are as backwards as any tribe not exposed to the rest of humanity. You understand that the Earth revolves around the Sun but your religion along with your ignorant arrogance has led you to believe that you can control the climate of an entire planet. Your belief in that is as misguided as a cult of people sacrificing to a volcano to make the rain fall. You live in modern times but you think like early humans scared of thunder and the setting of the sun.

I will not acquiesce to your fears. I will not allow your fear filled brains to dictate the course of my actions. Practice your religion, but don't drag me into it. I don't need it and I will not accept it. Practice your religion, tithe to your Gods, but don't expect me to join you. Do expect me to fight you should you try to force your religious beliefs upon me. I'm in no mood to be conquered by backward thinking fanatics.

 

[unokitty]

Climate Change all about Money

Poor countries have demanded that the developed world give them $100 billion annually by 2020 to prepare for the impacts of global warming, such as heat waves and droughts. Brazil even put forward a proposal last week that would have made rich countries pay for historical greenhouse gas emissions.

The G77 and China bloc led 132 poor countries in a walk out during talks about “loss and damage” compensation for the consequences of global warming that countries cannot adapt to, like Typhoon Haiyan. The countries that left claim to have the support of other coalitions of poor nations, including the Least Developed Countries, the Alliance of Small Island States and the Africa Group.

The science is clear.

The only solution is to give more money to your politicians.

How can we have climate justice if you won't give more money to your politicians?

LOL
Uno

 

[schmuckley]

https://www.google.com/#q=what+is+agenda+21

Sooner or later fanatics like shira, after swaying enough simple-minded folks, may gain enough power to thrust their hands very, very deep into our pockets. The money will mostly go to make very rich people very much richer and lo and behold the "problem" of climate change will be mitigated and everything occurring will then be due to natural causes. Explained by the cycles the Earth has gone through since it was formed. That explanation will be accepted for we will have truly done "something" and man in his infinite wisdom will have fixed the problem. That is what simple minded folks will be taught and what simple minded folks will believe.

The planet is ever changing. Humans cannot control the ebb and flow of the oceans, the movement of tectonic plates, the erosion of our coastlines, the gravitational pull of the moon, the orbit of the Earth, the shifting of Earth on it's axis, the cycles of our Sun. Ancient man devised religion to help him cope with that which he could not understand. Make no mistake, climate alarmists have their own religious cult going on. Their weak minds have been manipulated into thinking that man can control the climate of the Earth and that it must be done or man will perish! And there must be human sacrifices to make it all better. Your lifestyle must be sacrificed either through financial methods or physical methods. The climate change God must be appeased!

We cannot control the climate despite what your religion tells you climate alarmists. Your thought processes are as backwards as any tribe not exposed to the rest of humanity. You understand that the Earth revolves around the Sun but your religion along with your ignorant arrogance has led you to believe that you can control the climate of an entire planet. Your belief in that is as misguided as a cult of people sacrificing to a volcano to make the rain fall. You live in modern times but you think like early humans scared of thunder and the setting of the sun.

I will not acquiesce to your fears. I will not allow your fear filled brains to dictate the course of my actions. Practice your religion, but don't drag me into it. I don't need it and I will not accept it. Practice your religion, tithe to your Gods, but don't expect me to join you. Do expect me to fight you should you try to force your religious beliefs upon me. I'm in no mood to be conquered by backward thinking fanatics.

What about HAARP?
HAARP may be what's causing climate change.
also..holes in the ozone layer.

ICLEI infiltrated the schools 10-20 years ago and people thinking like this (Shira) is the result.

https://www.google.com/#q=what+is+iclei?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Hmmmm I could have sworn Norfolk/Tidewater region has had issues with flooding for well over 30 years. Something about being built on land that was previously marshland and then having 3 rivers feed into the bay adjacent to the area. All you need is heavy rain with high tide and bingo you get flooding.

 

[IGBT]

..and it's liberal mythology and alarmist eco-KOOK psychosis that atmospheric / geographical change is anybody's fault.

 

[thraashman]

LOL

Please tell me what the USA can do to stop this?

Are you going to tell China, India, and every 2nd and 3rd world country they need to stop growing and using more energy?

This exactly. It's also why you should rob banks and beat the elderly, because rapists and murderers exist. And so long as there's someone else out there doing something worse than you, nothing you do bad should matter or the consequences considered. More proof of why michal is a brilliant philosopher.

 

[Jaskalas]

In effect, you're arguing that because Norfolk is the first area affected, it's an invalid example.

I went on to provide an example that your side already believes 400ppm means significant sea level rise. As in it's already done, all we have to do is sit back and watch it happen.

If that's the case, then I hardly feel compelled to change our life style to avoid what is already set in motion.

 

[GaiaHunter]

This exactly. It's also why you should rob banks and beat the elderly, because rapists and murderers exist. And so long as there's someone else out there doing something worse than you, nothing you do bad should matter or the consequences considered. More proof of why michal is a brilliant philosopher.

Because developing the well being of the human population is clearly a nefarious activity comparable to rape and murder.

I guess we should all be wishing that our grandfathers and their grandfathers hadn't done the industrial revolution so we could still have low life expectancy and high child mortality.

Interestingly enough, reducing the CO2 emissions by decree instead of technological progress will indeed kill and condemn many to poverty, for no noticeable effect.

But I guess that is what the green religion requires to repent for our sins of increasing our life expectancy, decreasing child mortality and get free time to enjoy ourselves instead of just trying to survive.

 

[drebo]

Congratulations: your points merely repeat what I wrote in my own post. The fact the Norfolk is particularly vulnerable is the reason it's the FIRST city facing this problem, and in no way negates the message that this is what's coming for other coastal areas in America and elsewhere.

In effect, you're arguing that because Norfolk is the first area affected, it's an invalid example.

His point is that you can't take the relative sea level rise from a city that's sinking and use it as proof that the sea level rise is at a globally significant catastrophic level.

 

[bradly1101]

Sooner or later fanatics like shira, after swaying enough simple-minded folks, may gain enough power to thrust their hands very, very deep into our pockets. The money will mostly go to make very rich people very much richer and lo and behold the "problem" of climate change will be mitigated and everything occurring will then be due to natural causes. Explained by the cycles the Earth has gone through since it was formed. That explanation will be accepted for we will have truly done "something" and man in his infinite wisdom will have fixed the problem. That is what simple minded folks will be taught and what simple minded folks will believe.

The planet is ever changing. Humans cannot control the ebb and flow of the oceans, the movement of tectonic plates, the erosion of our coastlines, the gravitational pull of the moon, the orbit of the Earth, the shifting of Earth on it's axis, the cycles of our Sun. Ancient man devised religion to help him cope with that which he could not understand. Make no mistake, climate alarmists have their own religious cult going on. Their weak minds have been manipulated into thinking that man can control the climate of the Earth and that it must be done or man will perish! And there must be human sacrifices to make it all better. Your lifestyle must be sacrificed either through financial methods or physical methods. The climate change God must be appeased!

We cannot control the climate despite what your religion tells you climate alarmists. Your thought processes are as backwards as any tribe not exposed to the rest of humanity. You understand that the Earth revolves around the Sun but your religion along with your ignorant arrogance has led you to believe that you can control the climate of an entire planet. Your belief in that is as misguided as a cult of people sacrificing to a volcano to make the rain fall. You live in modern times but you think like early humans scared of thunder and the setting of the sun.

I will not acquiesce to your fears. I will not allow your fear filled brains to dictate the course of my actions. Practice your religion, but don't drag me into it. I don't need it and I will not accept it. Practice your religion, tithe to your Gods, but don't expect me to join you. Do expect me to fight you should you try to force your religious beliefs upon me. I'm in no mood to be conquered by backward thinking fanatics.

So you're not 'green' at all?

 

[Spungo]

LOL

Please tell me what the USA can do to stop this?

Nuke China and India!

I don't really see the big deal. People abandoning towns is not a new thing. Sometimes it's related to economics (Detroit). Sometimes it's related to climate (Atlantis?). Sometimes it's related to underground coal fires (Centralia):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMyG-IqiR34#t=43

I'm sure climate change will wipe out a lot of towns since the majority of the world's population lives at sea level. Most of the US population is along the east and west coasts; the interior of the country is mostly empty. Australia is like this too. Solution: move to one of those empty spaces when your town starts having major problems with flooding or storms. This wouldn't even be expensive. What does land in the middle of the country cost? Nothing. It's practically free. Countries like India might be a bit screwed, but they should have thought about that before having too many damn kids.

 

[Jaskalas]

His point is that you can't take the relative sea level rise from a city that's sinking and use it as proof that the sea level rise is at a globally significant catastrophic level.

He correctly countered that this is a taste of future events. Hard to argue on that point. Instead I choose to point out some of their arguments that it's already too late to change this.

 

[fskimospy]

He correctly countered that this is a taste of future events. Hard to argue on that point. Instead I choose to point out some of their arguments that it's already too late to change this.

I see you say this a lot and it makes me think that you don't understand climate change.

Some level of warming is now inevitable. That doesn't mean that we can't mitigate further warming. You might think that nobody cares if sea level rises one foot or two feet, but I'm quite sure that those people living 1.5 feet above sea level do.

 

[Jaskalas]

I see you say this a lot and it makes me think that you don't understand climate change.

Some level of warming is now inevitable. That doesn't mean that we can't mitigate further warming. You might think that nobody cares if sea level rises one foot or two feet, but I'm quite sure that those people living 1.5 feet above sea level do.

Warming isn't the issue at hand, sea level rise is. Last time CO2 was 400ppm sea level was 5-40 meters higher. Presumably that means we're already past the point of all that ice melting.

In other words, eliminate all of humanity tomorrow and you'd still be 160 feet under water in a century or two.

 

[fskimospy]

Warming isn't the issue at hand, sea level rise is. Last time CO2 was 400ppm sea level was 5-40 meters higher. Presumably that means we're already past the point of all that ice melting.

In other words, eliminate all of humanity tomorrow and you'd still be 160 feet under water in a century or two.

I'm sorry but it seems that I was right. Considering CO2 levels are currently at about 400ppm and sea levels aren't that high should tell you that there is more to the equation and such rise isn't guaranteed.

Presumably this should make you really happy, right?

 

[Double Trouble]

Picking one city that's sinking and trying to use it as an example of what everyone is facing is disingenuous to say the least. Even so, there is real chance that the sea levels will continue to rise. What's the solution?

 

[sandorski]

Just another Debt everyone is trying to pass onto their Grandchildren.

 

[Jaskalas]

I'm sorry but it seems that I was right. Considering CO2 levels are currently at about 400ppm and sea levels aren't that high should tell you that there is more to the equation and such rise isn't guaranteed.

Presumably this should make you really happy, right?

So in your world ice is expected to melt instantaneously?

I'll be sure to let icebergs know that they're doing it wrong.

 

[MongGrel]

The US will just invade Canada later.

Why do you think all that real estate just sitting up there atm.

:biggrin:

 

[Spungo]

Picking one city that's sinking and trying to use it as an example of what everyone is facing is disingenuous to say the least. Even so, there is real chance that the sea levels will continue to rise. What's the solution?

It's super easy. All we need to do is capture 200 years worth of unchecked CO2 emissions.