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A quick note on politics and the Corona epidemic....

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BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
14,481
931
126
The liberal approach using what we glean from science and reason saves lives and the conservative approach that the cure can’t be worse than the disease based on an attempt to look macho kills people. The insane rejection of science because fools can’t deal with the fear such data actually causes them to feel, creates their own deaths as a result. We create what we fear and conservatives are full of it. Hard for tough guys to see their own cowardly stupidity.

The real problem, though, is that you don’t have to be afraid yourself to suffer from it. The virus kills regardless of party.

It takes a profound inability to feel shame to be proud to be a member of a death cult. Trump says to us all, ‘be brave and drink your cup of virus. It will make you a man.’
There are so many paradoxes in the GOP belief system and world-view that any person of common sense and understanding would rebuke it if they could just sharpen their thinking skills . . .a bit . . . . somewhat . . . . sufficiently . . .

On the one hand, the evangelicals recoil from Darwin's theory, but the party underwrites an ideology of social Darwinism -- "the strong survive, the weak may perish, and this is good."

This then reveals a history-of-ideas going back to Hobbes and Locke concerning the nature of the Jungle and the Jungle's relationship to Civilization. The philosophers merely began a discussion, being more enlightened than our GOP brethren, but it shows where ideas are betrayed by attitudes, and the GOP has an attitude. The Right always wants to introduce more risk and even criminal opportunity into any Civilization status-quo. Then they conclude that we are always better off when life is "brutish, nasty and short". So they rail against health care as a right, or just publicly guaranteed health-care, and refuse an exercise of social responsibility by defying "mask-up" necessities of COVID avoidance.

This also follows the idea that Freedom can be unlimited or even infinite and "screw everyone else".

How do you promote the idea that Freedom is Finite in a culture where everyone is taught the myth that they should have all the Freedom and License they can grab because they are "an Individual" who should always have a smorgasbord to choose from, or that elections are only about simply defined self-interest?
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
14,745
3,196
136
There are so many paradoxes in the GOP belief system and world-view that any person of common sense and understanding would rebuke it if they could just sharpen their thinking skills . . .a bit . . . . somewhat . . . . sufficiently . . .

On the one hand, the evangelicals recoil from Darwin's theory, but the party underwrites an ideology of social Darwinism -- "the strong survive, the weak may perish, and this is good."

This then reveals a history-of-ideas going back to Hobbes and Locke concerning the nature of the Jungle and the Jungle's relationship to Civilization. The philosophers merely began a discussion, being more enlightened than our GOP brethren, but it shows where ideas are betrayed by attitudes, and the GOP has an attitude. The Right always wants to introduce more risk and even criminal opportunity into any Civilization status-quo. Then they conclude that we are always better off when life is "brutish, nasty and short". So they rail against health care as a right, or just publicly guaranteed health-care, and refuse an exercise of social responsibility by defying "mask-up" necessities of COVID avoidance.

This also follows the idea that Freedom can be unlimited or even infinite and "screw everyone else".

How do you promote the idea that Freedom is Finite in a culture where everyone is taught the myth that they should have all the Freedom and License they can grab because they are "an Individual" who should always have a smorgasbord to choose from, or that elections are only about simply defined self-interest?
All I know is that the world is not my oyster.
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
3,929
1,940
136
3-5% is the overall rate, including the massive bias towards seniors.
For young and healthy people it may be as low as 1 out of every 10 bags. As an example.

And while that may seem scary. There is an order of magnitude difference in choosing not to eat skittles VS living your life. The real life factors are far more impactful and that plays a role in risk factor and determining behavior.
Perhaps it is best for you to deliberately expose yourself. But after you do, wear a fucking mask, and stay the fuck home.

Maybe you will come out of it with no damage, and you might, or might have short term immunity after that.
Or
You will die. Locally a 19 year old college athlete died of COVID, and a 30 or 40 something law enforcement officer died, in the past week.
You may end up with life long, and life shortening, lung or heart damage.
You may end up in a mental fog, that may or may not improve with time, assuming you aren't already there.
You may just loose your sense of smell and taste, and be able to tell if you are eating a deli sandwich, or a shit sandwich.

Like the bowl of skittles. 100 skittles, 3 to 5 may kill you, but perhaps 10 more will leave you with life time or long term complications.

Do you feel lucky punk?
 
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MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
3,929
1,940
136
And the other thing is, we *HAVE* to stop focusing on just deaths. This isn't unique to Covid-19. This also matters in gun violence. It's not just deaths.

I'm almost 7 months removed from getting Covid in March. I *STILL* can't taste or smell much. If I was a chef my career would be done. If I had a job that requires full use of smell or taste my life would be upside down. And I didn't spend a day in a hospital. 10 of thousands HAVE. They spent weeks in a hospital. Not working. Not with their family. Racking up bills. Walking away weaker and less of a human than they were. THERE IS A COST THAT ISN'T JUST LIVES.

Same for gun violence. In the Vegas shooting several years back 61 people died. Another 411 had gunshot wounds. We just look at the 61 and go "well that's awful" while completely ignoring the other 411 that may not walk again, may be shitting into a bag attached outside of their body for the rest of their lives. May be living in chronic and long term pain. The medical bills. The mental trauma of watching that, living with it.

But hey, they're still alive right?

We must look at more than just deaths here.
We keep hearing that a wave of evictions and people loosing their homes when eviction protections expire.

There will be another wave that won't get the air time, those bankrupted by medical bills. A couple of weeks in the ICU, and by the wonders of medical science the live to go home... which they will no longer be able to afford.

There is a big 'settlement' coming from the MGM Grand for those that survived, and perhaps save their homes. Trump says China is going to pay for COVID... just like Mexico paid for the wall I'm guessing. And like the 'wonderful' wall, it will only take a gust of wind to blow it down.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
60,817
4,259
126
For all the "WHAT ABOUT THE ECONOMY?!?!?!" bedwetters, here's the deal.
The economy isn't going to recover until the virus is under control. The economy is in the shitter because of the virus, and not because of the lockdowns. We have spent more money doing half ass precautions to attempt to try and resume some sense of normalcy. The reality is that people aren't traveling because of the virus. They aren't going out to eat because of the virus. They aren't going to sporting events because of the virus. They aren't sending their kids to school because of the virus.

If we would grow the fuck up and not turn things into a stupid and petty culture war we could have kicked this thing in the dick back in March/April. Lock things down. Wear a damn mask. Shut up, stay inside, and instead of giving businesses a trillion in aid, just straight up send it to every adult and float them for 6-8 weeks. No need to evict then if people are still able to pay bills. Knock the numbers down to negligible cases so we can actually apply contact tracing to further isolate and squash it.

But nope. Can't do that. My body my choice. Liberate Michigan. Chinese flu. Fuck science. Bury data. Just generally do the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of responsible choices.

We aren't failing because of frailty. It's straight up stupidity and selfishness.
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
3,929
1,940
136
For all the "WHAT ABOUT THE ECONOMY?!?!?!" bedwetters, here's the deal.
The economy isn't going to recover until the virus is under control. The economy is in the shitter because of the virus, and not because of the lockdowns. We have spent more money doing half ass precautions to attempt to try and resume some sense of normalcy. The reality is that people aren't traveling because of the virus. They aren't going out to eat because of the virus. They aren't going to sporting events because of the virus. They aren't sending their kids to school because of the virus.

If we would grow the fuck up and not turn things into a stupid and petty culture war we could have kicked this thing in the dick back in March/April. Lock things down. Wear a damn mask. Shut up, stay inside, and instead of giving businesses a trillion in aid, just straight up send it to every adult and float them for 6-8 weeks. No need to evict then if people are still able to pay bills. Knock the numbers down to negligible cases so we can actually apply contact tracing to further isolate and squash it.

But nope. Can't do that. My body my choice. Liberate Michigan. Chinese flu. Fuck science. Bury data. Just generally do the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of responsible choices.

We aren't failing because of frailty. It's straight up stupidity and selfishness.
Cliffs Notes:
If everyone wore a fucking mask because the fucking President set the example and said it was beneficial to all, the COVID case total would be many factors lower, the death toll would be many factors lower, and the economy would be in much better shape.

I really need to stay home, as it's probably not safe if I have to interface with these fucking idiots in the real world.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,381
3,172
126
There are so many paradoxes in the GOP belief system and world-view that any person of common sense and understanding would rebuke it if they could just sharpen their thinking skills . . .a bit . . . . somewhat . . . . sufficiently . . .

On the one hand, the evangelicals recoil from Darwin's theory, but the party underwrites an ideology of social Darwinism -- "the strong survive, the weak may perish, and this is good."

This then reveals a history-of-ideas going back to Hobbes and Locke concerning the nature of the Jungle and the Jungle's relationship to Civilization. The philosophers merely began a discussion, being more enlightened than our GOP brethren, but it shows where ideas are betrayed by attitudes, and the GOP has an attitude. The Right always wants to introduce more risk and even criminal opportunity into any Civilization status-quo. Then they conclude that we are always better off when life is "brutish, nasty and short". So they rail against health care as a right, or just publicly guaranteed health-care, and refuse an exercise of social responsibility by defying "mask-up" necessities of COVID avoidance.

This also follows the idea that Freedom can be unlimited or even infinite and "screw everyone else".

How do you promote the idea that Freedom is Finite in a culture where everyone is taught the myth that they should have all the Freedom and License they can grab because they are "an Individual" who should always have a smorgasbord to choose from, or that elections are only about simply defined self-interest?
Thank you for this, as I consider it, penetrating analysis. I do not know how to promote the idea that Freedom isn't infinite and elections only based on self interest. But you have mentioned a number of times to my recollection that you used to be a conservative and I would be willing to bet that the reason you aren't any more is because life without a soul is pretty meaningless. All of the real goodies that come from living, I think, come from the feelings that light up inwardly when your aim is to do good to others. I think that awakened in you and can do so in others. And while it is outrageous to those who see farther, this myopic and pathetic focus on self, the joy that I speak of, I think, can be buried by selfishness but can never be destroyed. It is their longing to be awakened in everybody. Truth wins the long game as it arises fresh in every newborn child.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,327
2,851
126
We aren't failing because of frailty. It's straight up stupidity and selfishness.
You telling me that in our rat eat rat economy, the idea of a shut down laying off everyone - for months- does not terrify people?
You act like that is a feasible choice. Just surrender your homes, your pets, your clothes, your food. Just roll over and die of economic destitution. Cause that's fun, eh? I am telling you - that without a safety net - people will kill each other before they let you shut down the economy.

It is our stupidity that drives our economic conditions. That drives our frailty - ours fears - and our selfishness.
 

pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
6,639
2,035
136
I barely noticed whether others were wearing masks or not when I last ventured into the supermarket. Too busy trying to rush round as quickly as possible and get out, while being barely able to see anything because my glasses fog up 'cos of my own mask!
Was definitely shopping sub-optimally, as I can't read the price labels through my fogged-up specs and don't want to spend time hanging around doing mental-arithmetic to comparison shop! Get in, grab the stuff I'd already decided on getting, use a self-service-till, get out (go home, wash hands)...

In fairness to Trumpians, the infection figures are rising steeply everywhere - the second wave is pretty big right across Europe. This is really starting to get me down now. Both I and more than one friend have had very nasty and entirely-non-Covid health problems this year, with not much support available, and almost everyone I know seems to be facing losing their jobs. This year just sucks. Just keeping my fingers crossed it perks up a bit early next month.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
27,449
2,318
126
Or it's easy to have an evolutionary point of view when your not sick.
I think about this every time I forget to wear my mask at work, which is all to often. It's very easy to be focused on what your doing rather than what you should be doing. And this after going through a bout of something with a cough so bad codeine couldn't control it. At one point I actually thought my throat was bleeding I coughed so hard.
I'm not forgetting to do the right thing here. For a long time I didn't even leave the house. If I do now, it's wearing an N95 (I'm HIGH risk). Even with a mask on I try to stay 6+ feet from anybody and I've been indoors with other humans a total of less than 25 minutes since March, i.e. one trip to the supermarket, during over 60 hour.

One false move can literally kill you with this virus. I don't trust my fuckin' mailman (I have no idea who that person is), or anyone delivering anything to my house, and that includes my neighbor who drops my groceries on my porch every 2 weeks or so. I don't touch delivered mail for over a week! What's the hurry? I jot the date on it and set it aside each day in a different pile.

I'm quad skating the street daily, that's been my principle physical recreation for over 2 months, but I wear an N95, a helmet and gloves and try my damnedest not to fall (so far so good).
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
27,449
2,318
126
I disagree with the bolded part. At this point it's safe to say that the vast majority of adults in this country understand how the virus is spread, and the risk of infection. It's all on them, and most know it.
That's not clear to me at all. I have seen no information to suggest that's true. The only information I have gotten (and I've been looking) is that something like 60% of the voting public thinks Trump hasn't done a good job with the pandemic. That does not tell me they understand the epidemiology of this virus. At all. I don't know what it means, frankly, they never explain.

The evidence for Trump is damning. He knew, he pretended it was something completely other than what he knew. He cheered on the people who refused to wear masks and social distance, the people who railed against virus control measures put forward by various states. He threw a party on the White House lawn a few weeks ago that infected at least a dozen of his supporters. He was careless and got sick with it, got $100,000+ worth of treatment that you couldn't buy for $10,000,000, is out of the hospital and claims he's figured out the cure and everyone will get it for free. Anybody capable of making up their own mind based on the facts understands that he's a charlatan, a fool, a fake. But does the general public understand how this virus spreads? I have no idea. Canny people who are paying attention do, but those are evidently in the minority in many areas, very much so.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
27,449
2,318
126
I wish I could agree with you. I live in suburban North Carolina. You cannot go into Home Depot with a mask and expect to not be accosted. It is still bad. These people still do not get it.
That's just insane. I wouldn't live there, no way in the world.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
27,449
2,318
126
And the other thing is, we *HAVE* to stop focusing on just deaths. This isn't unique to Covid-19. This also matters in gun violence. It's not just deaths.

I'm almost 7 months removed from getting Covid in March. I *STILL* can't taste or smell much. If I was a chef my career would be done. If I had a job that requires full use of smell or taste my life would be upside down. And I didn't spend a day in a hospital. 10 of thousands HAVE. They spent weeks in a hospital. Not working. Not with their family. Racking up bills. Walking away weaker and less of a human than they were. THERE IS A COST THAT ISN'T JUST LIVES.

Same for gun violence. In the Vegas shooting several years back 61 people died. Another 411 had gunshot wounds. We just look at the 61 and go "well that's awful" while completely ignoring the other 411 that may not walk again, may be shitting into a bag attached outside of their body for the rest of their lives. May be living in chronic and long term pain. The medical bills. The mental trauma of watching that, living with it.

But hey, they're still alive right?

We must look at more than just deaths here.
Great, great post. Sometimes the survivors envy the dead.

 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
27,449
2,318
126
We're too proud, stupid and selfish. It's not sick and fragile.
Bad idea electing a president who is uber proud, quite stupid and who brazenly worships selfishness, callousness, and disregard for others, and tries his best to get other people to be the same.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
27,449
2,318
126
For all the "WHAT ABOUT THE ECONOMY?!?!?!" bedwetters, here's the deal.
The economy isn't going to recover until the virus is under control. The economy is in the shitter because of the virus, and not because of the lockdowns. We have spent more money doing half ass precautions to attempt to try and resume some sense of normalcy. The reality is that people aren't traveling because of the virus. They aren't going out to eat because of the virus. They aren't going to sporting events because of the virus. They aren't sending their kids to school because of the virus.

If we would grow the fuck up and not turn things into a stupid and petty culture war we could have kicked this thing in the dick back in March/April. Lock things down. Wear a damn mask. Shut up, stay inside, and instead of giving businesses a trillion in aid, just straight up send it to every adult and float them for 6-8 weeks. No need to evict then if people are still able to pay bills. Knock the numbers down to negligible cases so we can actually apply contact tracing to further isolate and squash it.

But nope. Can't do that. My body my choice. Liberate Michigan. Chinese flu. Fuck science. Bury data. Just generally do the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of responsible choices.

We aren't failing because of frailty. It's straight up stupidity and selfishness.
Your intelligence is showing, congrats!

Yep, do you believe in science? People who don't believe in science are uneducated, pure and simple. A couple of my favorite quotes concerning science. These are well worth mulling over, believe me:

"All our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have." - Albert Einstein
- - - -
"Clever people may learn as much as they wish of the results of science -- still one will always notice in their conversation, and especially in their hypotheses, that they lack the scientific spirit; they do not have that instinctive mistrust of the aberrations of thought which through long training are deeply rooted in the soul of every scientific person. They are content to find any hypothesis at all concerning some matter; then they are all fire and flame for it and think that is enough. To have an opinion means for them to fanaticize for it and thenceforth to press it to their hearts as a conviction. If something is unexplained, they grow hot over the first notion that comes into their heads and looks like an explanation--which results progressively in the worst consequences, especially in the sphere of politics. For that reason everyone should now study at least one science from the bottom up: then he will know what method means and how important is the utmost circumspection." -- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
- - - -
18 days until the big one! Vote... vote early, vote Democratic!
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
16,484
2,061
126
That's not clear to me at all. I have seen no information to suggest that's true. The only information I have gotten (and I've been looking) is that something like 60% of the voting public thinks Trump hasn't done a good job with the pandemic. That does not tell me they understand the epidemiology of this virus. At all. I don't know what it means, frankly, they never explain.

The evidence for Trump is damning. He knew, he pretended it was something completely other than what he knew. He cheered on the people who refused to wear masks and social distance, the people who railed against virus control measures put forward by various states. He threw a party on the White House lawn a few weeks ago that infected at least a dozen of his supporters. He was careless and got sick with it, got $100,000+ worth of treatment that you couldn't buy for $10,000,000, is out of the hospital and claims he's figured out the cure and everyone will get it for free. Anybody capable of making up their own mind based on the facts understands that he's a charlatan, a fool, a fake. But does the general public understand how this virus spreads? I have no idea. Canny people who are paying attention do, but those are evidently in the minority in many areas, very much so.
Does anyone over the age of twelve not know what precautions to take? Were talking about three simple actions. Anyone who hasn't cracked that code by now never will.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
30,439
9,383
136
Cliffs Notes:
If everyone wore a fucking mask because the fucking President set the example and said it was beneficial to all, the COVID case total would be many factors lower, the death toll would be many factors lower, and the economy would be in much better shape.

I really need to stay home, as it's probably not safe if I have to interface with these fucking idiots in the real world.
This. Wear mask, social distance, keep people employed and economy chugging.
 
Feb 4, 2009
27,477
7,929
136
Does anyone over the age of twelve not know what precautions to take? Were talking about three simple actions. Anyone who hasn't cracked that code by now never will.
I’m about to stop hanging out with a deplorable I know because he is trolling people about it like:
Taking off his mask and doing a fake cough
Being a baby about having to wear a mask to walk to your table in a restaurant (which I get is stupid but it’s a process thing, just easier to say you have to wear a mask at all businesses than try to figure out if I should wear a mask in McDonald’s vs the candy place vs the bakery vs the coffee shop vs a steak house)
Standing too close to people

for an older guy he acts like a young teen and as I said to him frankly I don’t want to be seen with an adult behaving like a child.
We will see what happens this weekend.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
27,449
2,318
126
Does anyone over the age of twelve not know what precautions to take? Were talking about three simple actions. Anyone who hasn't cracked that code by now never will.
There's always hope. People can come out of a coma. A cosmic ray may penetrate their cerebral cortex. They may drop acid, smoke a joint. Be struck by lightening...
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
27,449
2,318
126
I’m about to stop hanging out with a deplorable I know because he is trolling people about it like:
Taking off his mask and doing a fake cough
Being a baby about having to wear a mask to walk to your table in a restaurant (which I get is stupid but it’s a process thing, just easier to say you have to wear a mask at all businesses than try to figure out if I should wear a mask in McDonald’s vs the candy place vs the bakery vs the coffee shop vs a steak house)
Standing too close to people

for an older guy he acts like a young teen and as I said to him frankly I don’t want to be seen with an adult behaving like a child.
We will see what happens this weekend.
Some people need a wake up call. Let him know it's not OK as far as you're concerned, no uncertain terms.
 
Feb 4, 2009
27,477
7,929
136
Some people need a wake up call. Let him know it's not OK as far as you're concerned, no uncertain terms.
Oh I did two weeks ago.
“I’m not going to explain to a neighbor why I am hanging out with a moron” were my exact words.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
27,449
2,318
126
Oh I did two weeks ago.
“I’m not going to explain to a neighbor why I am hanging out with a moron” were my exact words.
Yup. It's not just a question of wasting your time hanging out with a moron. That's a dangerous moron to boot.
 

jmagg

Golden Member
Nov 21, 2001
1,592
163
106
Does anyone over the age of twelve not know what precautions to take? Were talking about three simple actions. Anyone who hasn't cracked that code by now never will.
lol yea. butrump indoctrination, the entire world depends on it except of course the genii of atot
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
30,439
9,383
136
lol yea. butrump indoctrination, the entire world depends on it except of course the genii of atot
Dum dums who haven't figured it out due to being mentally unable to or choosing misinformation channels to dump lies into their brains get pretty mad when those evil libtards tell them so.
 

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