A question for people who are anti-abortion/pro-life.

Gizmo j

Golden Member
Nov 9, 2013
1,357
366
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There is a few different arguments against abortion, most I disagree with, But one argument that I find odd is when people are talking about how in certain circumstances aborting is acceptable and then someone announces:

"My mother was in a similar circumstance and she didn't abort me!"

"I wouldn't be standing here right now if she did!".

"Are you saying that I shouldn't exist!!??"

The just of the argument is "supporting aborting in certain circumstances = insulting the lives of people who's mother was in same circumstance.

I just watched this documentary that has the exact same argument:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Zg-6pdecE


But the reason I think this argument is stupid is because these same people believe that people should not have sex before marriage, but....wouldn't that be an insult to the lives of people who were conceived out of wedlock?

Same thing goes for rape, wouldn't condemning rape be the same as insulting the lives of all the people who's mother have been raped?
 
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SlitheryDee

Lifer
Feb 2, 2005
17,252
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I'm not pro-life, but I can see where that argument comes from. It IS a real potential person growing in their belly. There's a decent chance that it would survive and grow up into a fully realized human being with their own complex thoughts and values and all the rest of it. Killing them before they do that IS depriving them of the opportunity for that.

It's debatable whether that's actually harming them though. They don't exactly have the cognitive capacity to mourn the loss of their future or even contemplate their present existence in any real way. For all intents and purposes they are just little masses of unthinking flesh. You might as well ask a hand if it mourns the loss of it's future before being amputated. The human it's attached to might, but the hand itself has no thoughts on the matter.

Still, the potentiality of this particular lump of flesh turning into a human being is a real thing. There is a real loss in not allowing it to take it's course, even if it's only appreciable to us full grown humans. I believe it's something that you should have to at least think about before having an abortion. There is a certain level of guilt involved, and it should be accepted fully rather than imagined as nonexistent.
 
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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,290
16,797
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What if the moon were made of barbecue spare ribs? Would you eat it?


(Uh, sorry, this thread was in Off Topic when I posted...)
 
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Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
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I'm not pro-life, but I can see where that argument comes from. It IS a real potential person growing in their belly. There's a decent chance that it would survive and grow up into a fully realized human being with their own complex thoughts and values and all the rest of it. Killing them before they do that IS depriving them of the opportunity for that.

It's debatable whether that's actually harming them though. They don't exactly have the cognitive capacity to mourn the loss of their future or even contemplate their present existence in any real way. For all intents and purposes they are just little masses of unthinking flesh. You might as well ask a hand if it mourns the loss of it's future before being amputated. The human it's attached to might, but the hand itself has no thoughts on the matter.

Still, the potentiality of this particular lump of flesh turning into a human being is a real thing. There is a real loss in not allowing it to take it's course, even if it's only appreciable to us full grown humans. I believe it's something that you should have to at least think about before having an abortion. There is a certain level of guilt involved, and it should be accepted fully rather than imagined as nonexistent.

I have much respect for this response. It's rare for someone to summarize the opposing viewpoint in such a fair, even-handed manner. Impressive to see this sort of thing online. Too often, there's just a rush to demonize the other side.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
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If my mother hadn't aborted her first pregnancy, she would not have gone on to conceive and bear me. Are you saying I shouldn't be here?

It's just bad reasoning, either way you slice it.
 

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
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Abortion should be a state issue. Each state should deal with it in their own way, and questions about it should be confined to within that state. That way the people who dont want it in their state can have the piece of mind knowing that no abortions are being practiced in their state. And pro-choice people can have the piece of mind of knowing that they are free to travel to any one of at least a few states who will perform the operation without a question asked. The main point is that the federal government absolutely should not and must not be involved in this discussion. Making it a federal issue only ensures gridlock and disfunction. And look at what our government suffers from the most.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
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If you think that then you do not understand the abortion issue. Constitutional rights are not for the states to decide.

That of course assumes abortion is a Constitutional right. Even some pro-choice folks question that.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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That of course assumes abortion is a Constitutional right.
No, it is not an assumption. It is a fact. You might have heard of a Supreme Court case called Roe v. Wade. It gets mentioned a lot -- I'm surprised you've not heard of it. I encourage you to educate yourself about the role of the Supreme Court in our government and its ruling in the aforementioned case.

Even some pro-choice folks question that.
If such people exist outside of your say-so they are equally ignorant.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
No, it is not an assumption. It is a fact. You might have heard of a Supreme Court case called Roe v. Wade. It gets mentioned a lot -- I'm surprised you've not heard of it. I encourage you to educate yourself about the role of the Supreme Court in our government and its ruling in the aforementioned case.

No, the Court's holding in Roe remains merely a legal opinion, subject to future revision. With your level of ridiculous arrogance, how do you learn anything?
 
Nov 29, 2006
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Abortion should be a state issue. Each state should deal with it in their own way, and questions about it should be confined to within that state. That way the people who dont want it in their state can have the piece of mind knowing that no abortions are being practiced in their state. And pro-choice people can have the piece of mind of knowing that they are free to travel to any one of at least a few states who will perform the operation without a question asked. The main point is that the federal government absolutely should not and must not be involved in this discussion. Making it a federal issue only ensures gridlock and disfunction. And look at what our government suffers from the most.

No it should be a people issue to deal with it their own way. Basically it should be legal in the whole US and then each person gets to decide how they want to handle it. You act as if 100% of any said state would want one thing over another. Why only care if it happens in your own state vs. another? That makes no sense to only care if babies are aborted in some arbitrary state boundries.
 
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Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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542
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No, the Court's holding in Roe remains merely a legal opinion, subject to future revision.
Until the frankly ludicrously unlikely event that the Court reverses itself, it remains a fact that abortion is a constitutional right. That's how it works.

With your level of ridiculous arrogance, how do you learn anything?
Did you forget what forum you're in?
 

master_shake_

Diamond Member
May 22, 2012
6,425
291
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people who think they can force womens actions on what they can do with their reproductive parts.

dd585fccb05dc0d2997608afb4006530.jpg


lots of metaphorical vaginas but not one real one.
 

1sikbITCH

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2001
4,194
574
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No, the Court's holding in Roe remains merely a legal opinion, subject to future revision. With your level of ridiculous arrogance, how do you learn anything?

More minority babies were born in the US than whites last year, most of them Hispanic.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...abies-are-no-longer-mostly-non-hispanic-white

By 2050 Hispanic voters will be the majority. 74% of them currently support abortion as does most everyone else. Even if you could hurry up and find a way which you can't, they'd just switch it back.
 

elitejp

Golden Member
Jan 2, 2010
1,080
20
81
There is a few different arguments against abortion, most I disagree with, But one argument that I find odd is when people are talking about how in certain circumstances aborting is acceptable and then someone announces:

"My mother was in a similar circumstance and she didn't abort me!"

"I wouldn't be standing here right now if she did!".

"Are you saying that I shouldn't exist!!??"

The just of the argument is "supporting aborting in certain circumstances = insulting the lives of people who's mother was in same circumstance.

I just watched this documentary that has the exact same argument:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Zg-6pdecE


But the reason I think this argument is stupid is because these same people believe that people should not have sex before marriage, but....wouldn't that be an insult to the lives of people who were conceived out of wedlock?

Same thing goes for rape, wouldn't condemning rape be the same as insulting the lives of all the people who's mother have been raped?
I dont think anyone is trying to insult anyone. In fact im sure pro life and pro abortion people are all equally glad you or any other person is alive. The only argument ive seen where pro life people agree that abortion could be contemplated is in instances of rape and that should be left up to the female in what she wants to do. But in situations where 2 people decide to have sex without proper protection then I would argue that if the option to abort the child wasnt allowed then you would have quite a few less pregnancies. I think your trying to draw conclusions especially when you infer that pro life people would rather have a child aborted due to pregnancy as a result of sex out of wedlock. The people who would support that decision are pro abortion. Whether or not you agree with abortion its still a very emotional strain on the woman to make a choice like this. I wouldnt want anyone to have to go through that.

Ps: lol, the font didnt seem that big when typing it out.
 
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Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
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...In fact im sure pro life and pro abortion...

I want to interject here to make a point, if you'll excuse me a moment.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't trying to insult or otherwise smear the collection of individuals that wish to defend women's rights to decide whether or not they wish to become and/or remain pregnant.

Practically nobody is "pro abortion." I'm allowing for a few fringe wackos out there that may actually advocate for every and all possible abortion, but the fact is that nobody reasonable likes abortion itself. It is a tragedy in every case. I think every reasonable person would agree that a perfect world would be one wherein nobody sought an abortion. I'm all for taking reasonable measures to reduce the demand for abortions.

What I'm NOT for is taking away the fundamental rights of actual persons, however. Banning abortion will not eliminate the demand for abortions, and instead will only drive the practice underground where it will be less safe for those women who are willing to risk undergoing the procedure.
 

elitejp

Golden Member
Jan 2, 2010
1,080
20
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Sorry i certainly wasnt trying to be condescending in any way. I live overseas and the word pro choice just slipped my mind. Here its a one child policy and abortion is a way of life. When asked about my opinions on this matter and given their situation I just keep my mouth shut.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
Sorry i certainly wasnt trying to be condescending in any way. I live overseas and the word pro choice just slipped my mind. Here its a one child policy and abortion is a way of life. When asked about my opinions on this matter and given their situation I just keep my mouth shut.

Please don't misunderstand. I don't think you intended to be offensive, and what you said is not exactly terribly offensive in the first place. I just used your post as a springboard to make point.
 

SlickSnake

Diamond Member
May 29, 2007
5,235
2
0
The kicker here is that abortion isn't really the catch all solution to literally hundreds of millions if not billions of unwanted pregnancies around the world, in spite of what the feminists might claim to the contrary. The primary problem is the emotional and irrational breeding instincts that drive many females to have kids they don't want in the first place, that is the real problem that feminists refuse to even address.

There is clearly a societal imperative to be able to turn off the ability to breed once females start menstruating in every single female if they are 18 years of age or younger or below the age of consent. And once all females reach the age of consent, then females need to prove they are competent to properly raise children regardless of if they are married, or not. If they are deemed not competent, then they should be forced to undergo chemical sterilization, unless they attempt to have kids illegally, when they should be surgically sterilized.

We already have very effective birth control methods to stop females from breeding unnecessarily. What we don't have is legally mandated measures in place to prevent underage females (and incompetent females) from irrationally breeding. Simply require all females to submit to a female medical screening from the age of 8-10 and up, once a year. And once they start menstruating, then use a once a year birth control measure they have to legally submit to, such as a sub-dermal implant. If they refuse to submit or fail to show up for their yearly check up, then lock them up or put a warrant out for their arrest. Then you will watch the abortion numbers fall to nearly zero, just like that.

Right now, there have reportedly been 60 million legal abortions in the USA, but that number is not even a complete number, because many states do not mandate reporting of abortions at all.

And with all the incalculable costs of social welfare and financial assistance programs for children currently crippling governments around the world with the financial obligations of unwanted births, the only way to force irresponsible or incompetent females from breeding is going to be using legal means to temporarily or permanently shut off the ability to breed in the first place.

While all the staunch feminists and religionists out there will undoubtedly cry foul on a plan by the government to legally stop underage and incompetent females from breeding out of control, you will see even more drastic breeding policies implemented in countries like China and India in the near future, without a doubt.

On the same topic, I was wandering around on LIVELEAK a few days ago, because I followed a link from somewhere else, and there was a video posted of a guy getting a BJ from a woman in the back seat of a car. The video was taken from behind the head of the female, so it wasn't really graphic, but it's definitely NSFW so I'm not linking it here.

At any rate, there was a young 8 year old boy watching mommy giving BJs through a back window while he beat on the window with a plastic bat, which was disturbing enough. But at the end of the short video, the unknown camera person panned out, to reveal an even younger girl, maybe 4 or 5, who was standing up on the drivers seat facing the back seat and watching mommy working hard to make a living, I guess.

So, does this "working woman" appear to be a competent and responsible mother and deserve the legal right to continue to breed? Or should she have her natural right to breed permanently terminated based on this video?

She obviously isn't preventing or aborting her unwanted kids, so these solutions that are available to her are not working in her case, and her unwanted kids are suffering from the results. She also probably dropped out of school fairly early on, so as a result of her poor choices, she now has a limited mental capacity and obviously can't be relied on to make life changing decisions like pregnancy for herself. So shouldn't the government step in and make these decisions to breed for her, since it's obviously the government she is going to be turning to for financial support because of her irresponsible choices to keep getting pregnant and have more kids?
 
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