A question for any pilots here (private or otherwise)

JoLLyRoGer

Diamond Member
Aug 24, 2000
4,153
4
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Adverse yaw. Why?

Consider the example of a left handed bank:

Right aileron goes down and left goes up effectively increasing lift on the outer wing and creating more drag which would make the plane want to yaw right when trying to turn left... I get that. But wouldn't the left aileron going up also increase drag across the left wing by disrupting laminar flow over the top surface of the wing and thereby neutralize the adverse yawing effect or am I missing something?


Or, and maybe I'm answering my own question here... Consider the example of straight ahead flight where an increased angle of attack increases drag...

Does the adverse yaw have to to with how the down right aileron is effectively increasing the right wing angle of attack while the up left aileron is decreasing the left wing angle of attack?

I'm trying to wrap my head around it and hit the "I believe" button, it's just that OK, I'm sticking my left aileron up into the airstream. It's going to make drag, just maybe not enough to cancel out the drag on the other side of the aircraft when combined with the increased angle of attack?

I mean, I know it works this way or we wouldn't need rudders (unless it's a Grumman Tiger - that thing doesn't need hardly any rudder input)! I'm just trying to understand it all better.

Thanks,
-JR
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Sorry I was at PT and being massaged by a nice lady. The wing with the down aileron is producing more drag than the aileron that is disrupting the airflow. Any time your produce more lift you produce more drag so the total drag on one side is more. And there are a lot of factors in design that cause some planes to need more rudder to counteract the yaw.

When I flew 727's my feet were pretty much on the floor the whole time with the exception of being on final approach. The ailerons on a 727 were relatively small.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,382
5,347
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All that, and also the Tiger does indeed need rudder. you just don't have a finely tuned ass.
 

Caveman

Platinum Member
Nov 18, 1999
2,532
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91
I'm trying to wrap my head around it and hit the "I believe" button, it's just that OK, I'm sticking my left aileron up into the airstream. It's going to make drag, just maybe not enough to cancel out the drag on the other side of the aircraft when combined with the increased angle of attack?

You understand... There is more drag created on the "lifting wing"... each plane will be different but the usual "fix" is differential aileron throw... More up than down. This gives you the same net banking effect while minimizing adverse yaw. As you might imagine, this is critical for aerobatic planes like an Extra or SU-24 - you want them to fly with neutral stability in all attitudes throughout all bank inputs...
 

Soundmanred

Lifer
Oct 26, 2006
10,780
6
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I got all Gold on flight training on Grand Theft Auto 5 and have NO idea what you're talking about.
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,757
617
121
I am an avid flight simer in FS2004 and i think you are suppose to rudder while you bank. I know that if I want to decrease speed i bank. I fly the SR-71 at mach 3 and the F-22 at mach 2 and it takes some damn skill. LOL!

BTW- Best payware addon for FSX is the PMDG 737NGX! Real as it gets by god! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kidx6xrp9Qg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UGlyp_jqIY

Me flying the F-22 into my created Area-51 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SQpIEyR81I

Me flying the 737. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz5S2HWtAT8
 
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DaTT

Garage Moderator
Moderator
Feb 13, 2003
13,295
118
106
I am an avid flight simer in FS2004 and i think you are suppose to rudder while you bank. I know that if I want to decrease speed i bank. I fly the SR-71 at mach 3 and the F-22 at mach 2 and it takes some damn skill. LOL!

BTW- Best payware addon for FSX is the PMDG 737NGX! Real as it gets by god! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kidx6xrp9Qg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UGlyp_jqIY

Me flying the F-22 into my created Area-51 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SQpIEyR81I

Me flying the 737. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz5S2HWtAT8

My BIL is a pilot, flies A320 right now. He says the only time you use a rudder on a jet is during take off and landing
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
I am an avid flight simer in FS2004 and i think you are suppose to rudder while you bank. I know that if I want to decrease speed i bank. I fly the SR-71 at mach 3 and the F-22 at mach 2 and it takes some damn skill. LOL!

BTW- Best payware addon for FSX is the PMDG 737NGX! Real as it gets by god! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kidx6xrp9Qg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UGlyp_jqIY

Me flying the F-22 into my created Area-51 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SQpIEyR81I

Me flying the 737. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz5S2HWtAT8

The real thing is a different experience
 

KMc

Golden Member
Jan 26, 2007
1,149
0
76
You answered your own question right here:

"Does the adverse yaw have to to with how the down right aileron is effectively increasing the right wing angle of attack while the up left aileron is decreasing the left wing angle of attack?"
 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
Moderator
Sep 16, 2005
15,682
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www.markbetz.net
Yeah, I was referring to a Cessna 172.

Honestly, in the real world you don't need a lot of rudder input on those either. I'm not a pilot, but I'm the child of pilots and have spent a lot of time in Cessnas, and been at the controls of one in various places for various amounts of time. They always seemed pretty much bank and go to me.
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
14,241
638
126
You should try digital combat simulator A10C much harder system to master. I stopped playing it and used to have all the controls memorized pretty much but now I've forgotton.
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
14,241
638
126
It's excellent, must have track ir and a hotas stick to be comfortable. But it's not one of those Sims you pick up and then put down to come back later to since you will need to go over everything from the start unless you play every now and then and have a really good memory.
 

Puppies04

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2011
5,909
17
76
The real thing is a different experience

So you are saying flying a fighter jet is a different experience to playing a flight simulator game released to the general public?

I don't know if you are serious of not, care to back that up with facts otherwise i'm calling shens.
 

JoLLyRoGer

Diamond Member
Aug 24, 2000
4,153
4
81
Wanted to say thank you to those who responded. In particular rudder and Caveman. Those were the answers I was looking for. :)
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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So you are saying flying a fighter jet is a different experience to playing a flight simulator game released to the general public?

I don't know if you are serious of not, care to back that up with facts otherwise i'm calling shens.

The sim does not provide the extra senses.

Examples:
When you bank; does your body get moved around?
Pull out from a dive; do you get c_ompression.
What sim provides you with sun glare?
what happens to you in the sim at 10 gs?

Sims provide you with the technical aspects; none of the physical aspects of the airframe or your body.


Given the fact that I have hours in a high performance jet, I do have some experience to draw on
 
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