A question about the history of people and homosexuality
- Thread starter BigToquex
- Start date
Considering all you'd have to go off of is some cuneiform and hieroglyphics...probably not much historical evidence.
But...I'm sure it depended on the society. Maybe some tribe in Africa was open to it while the ancient Mesopotamians were against it?
But...I'm sure it depended on the society. Maybe some tribe in Africa was open to it while the ancient Mesopotamians were against it?
"Before the Bible came around..." You mean before the Bible was popularized by Christians?
Depends on location. In Greece/Rome, homosexuality was very common. Much rarer in the northern Germanic tribes. Probably very taboo in China like it is now.
My 2c.
Depends on location. In Greece/Rome, homosexuality was very common. Much rarer in the northern Germanic tribes. Probably very taboo in China like it is now.
My 2c.
Kev:
> define "very common"?
In Rome, pretty much every male citizen did it. They had a saying, something like "Boys for pleasure, women for marriage." There's a number of books on the subject.
> That is funny in so many ways.
What? It was around before Christ, and logically there were no Christians before that time, only Jews... and Christianity/the Christian Bible didn't get really popular until the Romans converted...
> define "very common"?
In Rome, pretty much every male citizen did it. They had a saying, something like "Boys for pleasure, women for marriage." There's a number of books on the subject.
> That is funny in so many ways.
What? It was around before Christ, and logically there were no Christians before that time, only Jews... and Christianity/the Christian Bible didn't get really popular until the Romans converted...
It doesn't make any sense, actually. Christianity didn't take an existing book and "popularize" it.
But the OP does beg the question - before "The Bible" existed, which mostly came AFTER Jesus, or does he mean before the times depicted in The Bible?
What I'm getting at is, I don't believe that people would dislike homosexuality if it wasn't for the fact that people have been told it was wrong in the Bible (or other sources associated with God and religion).
There are many things in the Bible that help guide us how to live great lives. I mean things like "no sex before marriage"... obviously if you can not do any sexual things with anyone but the single person you want to spend the rest of your life with, you never have to worry about telling them and hurting them with the things you have done previously.
You can come to this conclusion without ever needing to hear it in the bible. If you don't want to hurt someone with your past, don't live a life that you know will hurt someone later down the road.
I don't really think that people would dislike or fear homosexuality without it being in the Bible. I don't believe that people would think it's a bad thing just on their own.
Do you see what I'm getting at?
There are many things in the Bible that help guide us how to live great lives. I mean things like "no sex before marriage"... obviously if you can not do any sexual things with anyone but the single person you want to spend the rest of your life with, you never have to worry about telling them and hurting them with the things you have done previously.
You can come to this conclusion without ever needing to hear it in the bible. If you don't want to hurt someone with your past, don't live a life that you know will hurt someone later down the road.
I don't really think that people would dislike or fear homosexuality without it being in the Bible. I don't believe that people would think it's a bad thing just on their own.
Do you see what I'm getting at?
> I don't really think that people would dislike or fear homosexuality without it being in the Bible. I don't believe that people would think it's a bad thing just on their own.
Hm. Yeah, I think I'd agree with that.
Some ppl might still see it as a "defect" though, since reproductively it's a dead end. Depends how widespread it would be, I guess.
Hm. Yeah, I think I'd agree with that.
Some ppl might still see it as a "defect" though, since reproductively it's a dead end. Depends how widespread it would be, I guess.
But wouldn't you say that the rather bizarre emphasis on having one lifetime sexual partner is also mostly a judeo-christian religious construct?
If we didn't learn from somewhere that it was "wrong," would we think it was on our own? Why should it bother us that our current partner has been with other people?
The bible was not "popularized by Christians". They stole a bunch of Jewish holy books (where all the anti-homosexual admonishments, as well as a ton of other such things) as the foundation to there holy book and then added a bunch more writings. That is where the Old Testament (Jewish origin, fortelling the coming of the Messiah) and New Testament (the coming and going of the Messiah) both come from.
As for other cultures, from all that I've seen and read on it, it's been pretty much everywhere. There are tribes in Africa that have/do practice it as a rite of innitiation. It was done in ancient China and Japan and area (you had your choice of female or boy in some bath houses back then) but was largely stamped out centuries ago when the more well known and strict worldview was adopted there.
And that was just off the top of my head from various history and bio classes I've taken as well as some channel surfing. If you want to know more, just toss your question into google, will likely come up with tons of stuff.
-- Jack
The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision.
-- Anon, unsubstantiated
As for other cultures, from all that I've seen and read on it, it's been pretty much everywhere. There are tribes in Africa that have/do practice it as a rite of innitiation. It was done in ancient China and Japan and area (you had your choice of female or boy in some bath houses back then) but was largely stamped out centuries ago when the more well known and strict worldview was adopted there.
And that was just off the top of my head from various history and bio classes I've taken as well as some channel surfing. If you want to know more, just toss your question into google, will likely come up with tons of stuff.
-- Jack
The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision.
-- Anon, unsubstantiated
I don't like the fact that my GF has done things with other guys before me. (just like she doesn't like that I've been with other girls) I'm not really a religious person, so I can't really say that my dislike for her having been with other people is a result of religious conditioning.
The idea of homosexuality being a sin was only popularised later. This is a set up, showing too much knowledge on homosexuality. It was the Greeks who held the ideal "Men for love, women for sex"; specifically the Athenians. Thus you have jokes like "How do you separate the men from the boys in Greece". The Spartans had laws, but they were designed to prevent commanders from taking advantage of "young" recruits. I think the only real reference in the bible against homosexuality was against the male temple prostitutes (IIRC).
If you grew up in Europe or The Americas, you were exposed to religious conditioning regardless of whether you are religious yourself.
There's no real reason for us to be so concerned with our partner's histories aside from diseases. The idea must have come from somewhere. My would you naturally worry about this kind of stuff when most of the remainder of the animal kingdom does not?
OTOH even if you assume the Bible was entirely fabricated by humans, then these ideas must have come from some people somewhere, people who cooked up these ideas on their own.
Well, if you look at pretty much all religions (especially the earlier ones) they were all forms of social control and conditioning. In general, a lot of the religious "laws" had some practical purpose behind it. Take the Jewish kosher laws, specifically those against eating pork. It's not that it was bad for you or anything, just that in that region at that time, it was next to impossible to store the stuff. And we all know that bad pork can mess you up something fierce.
The sexuality laws were most likely put in place because they were seen as the best route to reproduction. A family unit is a good way to raise a child. As single parents under the poverty line are demonstrating now (poverty rate of children of single mothers under the age of 25 is something like 90% in Manitoba, according to a study I saw the other say), just one person is not a good way to raise kids. Plus, you have to take into account a MUCH higher infant mortality rate back then, so tribes/families of those times wanted as many kids as possible, in as stable an environment as possible, so that the next generation will actually be stronger.
A lot of religious anti-homosexual attitudes probably just arose from the fact that buggering your buddy does NOT lead to a next generation of kids for the tribe. Then see my original point on how religions were the most effective means of controlling people back then.
-- Jack
The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance...logic can be happily tossed out the window.
-- Stephen King
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