A nice little video, our capitalism in action

[IronWing]

First they off-shored the garment workers and I said nothing because I am not a garment worker.
Then they off-shored the steel workers, the autoworkers, the tech workers, the call centers, the appliance factories, the freaking drive-through order takers...

Protectionism worked well and can work again. Americans need to start voting their self-interest. America can't afford the free trade religion.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

If Germany or Scandinavia it's still fail. We are not supposed to be Europe, Eastern or Western. We don't have the same population as those countries, were everyone speaks one language generally and have the same values. Sorry, it just won't work.

http://reason.tv/video/show/andreas-bergh-inteview

very educational video.
something all the lunatics here who call for higher taxes should watch.

 

[Jhhnn]

With all due respect you miss the point.

The problem is federal backed loans IMO. As long as banks can charge origination fees and get instant capital by writing loans and passing them off to Freddie and Fannie this problem is not fixed.

The issue isn't deregulation. The issue is that banks have nothing to fear, and in fact plenty go gain, by writing bad loans. The government just buys them up either way.


So the libs pass another bill that is thousands of pages long to make sure this doesn't happen again. I can make sure this doesn't happen again in one sentence.

"Financial institutions are required to keep on their books all loans that they write for a minimum of 5 years."

Thus the policy of charging origination fees on bad loans, packaging them up, and selling them to our federal government who buys it with China's money ends.

Obviously, you suffer from the usual conservative short memory syndrome. Prior to the Bushistas, the GSE's stayed in the black, and had done so under a variety of names ever since they were created under the New Deal in the 1930's. Govt guarantees were never exercised or needed prior to the rise of the Lootocracy and their deliberate exploitation of existing structures. Here's a nice pic of Bush financial regulators in action-

http://dorkmonger.blogspot.com/2008/11/cutting-red-tape.html

Come on Down! We'll lend huge sums to any warm body that gets through the door!

Of course, it didn't help anybody but the looters that GWB pulled hundreds of FBI agents out of financial crimes investigations to hunt for Terrarists! under every bed in America...

Edit- another tidbit to consider is that the GSE's wouldn't take the worst bunk that the financial community created- that was sold into the private market, and transformed into what they called "assets" via securitization, held by those institutions, then used as reserves to lend more money... It's what came to be known as "toxic assets".

 

[child of wonder]

That was pretty fucking stupid of those workers to strike. Pay cuts suck, but when you're already making twice what you're worth, you shouldn't bitch and moan if you get dropped to 85% more than what you're worth.

On the flip side, consumers need to speak with their wallets if they're sick of gross executive pay. CEOs should be paid well for their skills and experience, but the amount some are making is egregious. But how do you enforce "fair" pay for executives? We can't place a cap on pay because we're not communists. What we need is for consumers to educate themselves and collectively support companies that don't overpay their executives at the expense of their workers.

However, in reality, human beings are selfish animals that would kill their own grandmother if it meant making more money so I really have little hope that things will ever change.

 

[ShawnD1]

(video http://reason.tv/video/show/andreas-bergh-inteview )

very educational video.
something all the lunatics here who call for higher taxes should watch.

LOL. You didn't even watch the video. The guy explicitly states that Sweden's success is attributed to taxing the people instead of taxing corporations. That's what libs have been saying for the longest time. It's important to have low taxes on corporations because corporations are mobile, they move around, they can operate in any country. Corporations are something you don't want to drive away. Taxing people is a lot easier because they can't escape; other countries will not accept millions of people trying to flee the US.

The guy also said a lot of other things that are part of the liberal agenda.
-Personal taxes in Sweden are extremely high; the top bracket pays 55% in taxes and the middle class pays about 40%
-Approximately 85% of this money is returned to you and the remaining 15% goes to services you don't personally use (ie pay for child care even though you have no children)
-University up to the PhD level is completely free in Sweden
-Sweden has free private schools
-Sweden's old age pension is excellent
-Health care is free in Sweden
-Sweden's telephone, internet, and utilities have government enforced competition. This is actually the standard in most of Europe and parts of Canada. The company that built the grid is required by law to let other providers use the grid for a certain cost. This is the exact opposite of what the US has. In the US, competition is not forced on anyone, so the result is endless monopolies. If Comcast owns the local cable grid, then you're fucked. That's the only cable company you can deal with.


Sweden sounds like a pretty great place to live, and I'm not the only one who thinks that. Sweden is consistently ranked as one of the best countries to live in.

 

[alkemyst]

What the CEO makes has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on what the average worker should make you stupid commie.

Yes and no. In today's world, our CEO's never adjust their salary....they either take it out of the workers or ask the government to pitch in.

In the past the CEO would take the cream of the top and sacrifice during dry years.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

LOL. You didn't even watch the video. The guy explicitly states that Sweden's success is attributed to taxing the people instead of taxing corporations. That's what libs have been saying for the longest time. It's important to have low taxes on corporations because corporations are mobile, they move around, they can operate in any country. Corporations are something you don't want to drive away. Taxing people is a lot easier because they can't escape; other countries will not accept millions of people trying to flee the US.

The guy also said a lot of other things that are part of the liberal agenda.
-Personal taxes in Sweden are extremely high; the top bracket pays 55% in taxes and the middle class pays about 40%
-Approximately 85% of this money is returned to you and the remaining 15% goes to services you don't personally use (ie pay for child care even though you have no children)
-University up to the PhD level is completely free in Sweden
-Sweden has free private schools
-Sweden's old age pension is excellent
-Health care is free in Sweden
-Sweden's telephone, internet, and utilities have government enforced competition. This is actually the standard in most of Europe and parts of Canada. The company that built the grid is required by law to let other providers use the grid for a certain cost. This is the exact opposite of what the US has. In the US, competition is not forced on anyone, so the result is endless monopolies. If Comcast owns the local cable grid, then you're fucked. That's the only cable company you can deal with.


Sweden sounds like a pretty great place to live, and I'm not the only one who thinks that. Sweden is consistently ranked as one of the best countries to live in.

riiight.
key part is that 85% of the tax money is returned to the taxpayer. that's NOTHING like how it works here.
and while I agree that most people can't save for themselves and are probably better off having the govt do it for them, i'd like to live in a country where i have a choice of where my savings come and go.

and did you also miss the part where he says that those who want higher quality healthcare go elsewhere for it?

and did you also miss the part where they tried to raise taxes for the highest earners, and for 20 years it failed miserably?

 

[ShawnD1]

and did you also miss the part where he says that those who want higher quality healthcare go elsewhere for it?

When he says they go elsewhere, what he literally means is they fly their 10 million dollar private jet to the US and pay 1 million dollars cash to get all their joints replaced.
If you're an average Swede, you wait a few months or a year. If you're an average American, you get the joy of picking between living in a house or having a working hip joint. You can have one or the other, but you can't have both.

It's always interesting to know what things cost. Joint replacements are quite expensive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_replacement#Costs

In 2008, hip replacements in the U.S. cost about $45,000.[15]

In 2008, a source quoted US$7–9,000 in India at an internationally accredited hospital; in a county in Florida, USA, from $41,597-$56,258

Roughly 1/6 of Ameriacans have no insurance, some of the rest have terribly shitty insurance that will not cover most of this, and some of them will not have it covered because it's a pre-existing condition.

and did you also miss the part where they tried to raise taxes for the highest earners, and for 20 years it failed miserably?

That's called a Laffer curve. Maximum effective taxation is often in the 30-50% range. Setting taxes to 90% is bad, and using the LOL FAIRTAX estimates of about 10% are wrong as well.
The US has a pretty good tax framework, but it's very poorly used. Instead of collecting 30% taxes and using the money to build some kind of voucher system for child care, people with kids are simply given tax write offs. They use the money to buy stupid shit like cigarettes then they bitch about child care being too expensive so they end up relying on charity of others. People are too stupid to control their own money. They basically need a shepherd leading them around and telling them what to do.

Remember the days before social security old age pension? People wouldn't save any of their money, and they would die homeless. People are that stupid. They can't be trusted to wipe their own asses, feed themselves, or even find shelter.
One of my engineering teachers was like that. I won't say anything about his abilities as an engineer, but he stated numerous times that he was only working because he didn't save his money for retirement. Even educated people are stupid as fuck.

 

[alkemyst]

a lot of the costs of our procedures are due to lawsuits and everything that has to go into it to support them.

In places outside American, if you get nerve numbing or another common complication you are just patted on the ass and sent on your merry way. Here they ask would you like a Rolls included in your lawsuit or a new Ferrari?

 

[Jhhnn]

Remember the days before social security old age pension? People wouldn't save any of their money, and they would die homeless. People are that stupid. They can't be trusted to wipe their own asses, feed themselves, or even find shelter.

I don't think you understand what really happened in the Depression, at all. Intelligent people who'd saved and invested were wiped out when the markets crashed and the banks went under. There was no FDIC, no safe haven for their money other than what they held in cash or real estate whose title was free and clear. Even the latter was of no avail if they couldn't pay the taxes.

Investing on margin was quite common, even for upper middle class people. They'd put up $2K to buy $10K in stock, offer their assets as a surety bond. After black thursday, they lost everything. At the time, it was widely believed that such events were impossible in such a short period of time, but they were obviously wrong.

You didn't have to be stupid or shortsighted to get totally screwed, not at all. You just had to have faith in the system...

Kinda like the "Ownership Society" of 2005...

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

More lameness, and an endorsement of callous greed.

Why is there a recession, anyway?

Maybe the level of participation in the economy by temporary replacement workers making <$10/hr with no benefits will help understanding that...

Which is basically the Republican "vision" for America.

Middle class conservatism really is a pathological condition, because you're next, mow-ron...

Well let's see. The recession started because of the housing market falling out. It fell out because a bunch of people got mortgages for homes they couldn't afford. They got those loans because banks were forced to loan money to people with risky credit and income sources. They were forced into these actions because Democrats think everyone should have the same opportunity to own a home even if they can't actually afford it.
So, thanks for trying to blame republicans for the problem when the root of the problem is demoncrats.

 

[child of wonder]

Well let's see. The recession started because of the housing market falling out. It fell out because a bunch of people got mortgages for homes they couldn't afford. They got those loans because banks were forced to loan money to people with risky credit and income sources. They were forced into these actions because Democrats think everyone should have the same opportunity to own a home even if they can't actually afford it.
So, thanks for trying to blame republicans for the problem when the root of the problem is demoncrats.

lol

Democrats plotted and schemed for YEARS to bring about the latest recession.

EVERYONE is collectively to blame for the recession. You, me, stupid home buyers, banks, etc. There was a nice, big, fat bubble that kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Everyone wanted to get their dirty hands on that rapidly expanding cash cow.

Then it exploded in our faces.

We're not going to learn anything from the economic crisis if we just sit around saying "its all dem Demmycrats fault!" or "the Repiglicans did it!"

 

[alkemyst]

Well let's see. The recession started because of the housing market falling out. It fell out because a bunch of people got mortgages for homes they couldn't afford. They got those loans because banks were forced to loan money to people with risky credit and income sources. They were forced into these actions because Democrats think everyone should have the same opportunity to own a home even if they can't actually afford it.
So, thanks for trying to blame republicans for the problem when the root of the problem is demoncrats.

It had nothing to do with the bipartizan system.

It wasn't really home buyers either. It was banks and investors being irresponsible.

When someone is told they should be able to afford the home they are signing on for, its not their fault.

Outside of these people there were a handful of private type flippers that I thrown into the investor category. Also all the 'liar loans' where banks were allowing no documentation and going on a TGIFridays waiter saying he made $10k a month in tips.

You have people like me who financed properly and even bought at the tail end of the 'boom' when we were all told the bottom was here again.

Since then within 2 years my home was depreciated $160k to being worth $96k. I still owe $265k. Technically I am responsible for surrendering my collateral if I don't pay.

Many are doing just that. I am going to try to hang on and hopefully at least break even in 5 years...if not I am going to have to let it go myself if I am in the same shape or worse.

 

[sandorski]

Well let's see. The recession started because of the housing market falling out. It fell out because a bunch of people got mortgages for homes they couldn't afford. They got those loans because banks were forced to loan money to people with risky credit and income sources. They were forced into these actions because Democrats think everyone should have the same opportunity to own a home even if they can't actually afford it.
So, thanks for trying to blame republicans for the problem when the root of the problem is demoncrats.

Your Fail is strong.

 

[ShawnD1]

Well let's see. The recession started because of the housing market falling out. It fell out because a bunch of people got mortgages for homes they couldn't afford. They got those loans because banks were forced to loan money to people with risky credit and income sources. They were forced into these actions because Democrats think everyone should have the same opportunity to own a home even if they can't actually afford it.
So, thanks for trying to blame republicans for the problem when the root of the problem is demoncrats.

Democrats:
We should probably put regulations in place so banks can only lend to people to people who are capable of paying it back, and we should also put limitations on how much someone can leverage their bets.

Republicans:
Fuck it. De-regulate all of it. Let banks lend money to people who don't even have jobs then sell the bond to some poor sucker's retirement fund. The free market will correct itself.

The republicans were right. The market did correct itself. It caused the biggest recession since 1929, and ironically it was caused by the exact same thing. 1929 is what happens when your investments are heavily leveraged and backed by debt. When the investment goes down and there's a margin call, you're fucked. Houses were extremely leveraged since you don't actually own the house and lots of mortgages are zero down; you just own the debt and you are relying on the value of the house going up while the interest on the debt stays low. Interest rates going up a bit is your margin call. You can't afford the house anymore, so you sell it. Lots of people do. The price goes down. Suddenly the debt is much higher than the value of the house. Now that everyone is selling their house, the money made from selling the house still does not cover the debt! People default on their loans. People who bought those bonds are totally fucked, the value goes down to nothing. A whole bunch of insurance claims are made to cover the debt, but the insurance company itself is leveraged and can't cover it, so it goes bankrupt (AIG).

America, fuck yeah.

 

[ebaycj]

They're not as amazingly skilled and talented as what many of the free market dogmatist sheeple want to believe. In fact we have a huge oversupply of MBAs in our society and a great many of them could be trained or could learn to do what they're doing for far less compensation.

Best post I've ever read on these forums.

 

[CycloWizard]

We simply cannot compete against them unless we want most Americans to live in poverty and without environmental and labor regulations. However, we can insulate ourselves by instituting a zero-dollar trade deficit policy and by pursuing self-sufficiency. There's no reason why we cannot manufacture electronic goods and perform other outsourced functions domestically.

This mode of thinking is fundamentally flawed because it is based on the premise that you can choose whether or not you will compete or, at least, who you will compete with. The reason we can't do the things which have been offshored here is because our labor prices are hugely inflated relative to 90% of the players in the game. Cheap transportation and communication have brought them into the game from the sidelines, and you can't simply wish the toothpaste back into the tube once it's out.

 

[QuantumPion]

Protectionism worked well and can work again. Americans need to start voting their self-interest. America can't afford the free trade religion.

Yeah we really sure do miss the good old days of serfdom when the ruling class knew what was better for the rest of us peasants.