A new US mid-east policy may emerge.

[Lemon law]

I can only post the following NYT times link, but to some extent its something I have long advocated.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/world/middleeast/08prexy.html?ref=global-home

Finally a somewhat sensible plan, to end a long standing mid-east problem. And to finally find a mid-east peace that has eluded a long series of US Presidents dating back to Nixon and arguable before.

The somewhat radical change is the abandonment of the total fantasy current conventional wisdom myth that Israel, Palestinians, and Arabs will ever agree. I somewhat also question the idea that its wise or just for the peace price settlement being a requirement on Palestinians being required to abandon the right of return in favor of some compensation.

I can only conclude that its hardly a done deal and only something being considered by the Obama administration, but I think its a positive plan. If the Netanyuhu government falls as a result, it will be another positive development.

But if it leads to a lasting mid-east peace, maybe Obama will finally deserve that Nobel Peace Prize.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It doesn't matter what Obama proposes.

"Israel must return to 1967 borders, also pigs must fly".

"Palestinian leadership must give up their right of return. They must catch the flying pigs."

 

[Lemon law]

It doesn't matter what Obama proposes.

"Israel must return to 1967 borders, also pigs must fly".

"Palestinian leadership must give up their right of return. They must catch the flying pigs."

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Maybe the Hayabusa Rider implied fantasy is that a nation with only 5 million Jews can dictate terms to a larger world with billions of people.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

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Maybe the Hayabusa Rider implied fantasy is that a nation with only 5 million Jews can dictate terms to a larger world with billions of people.

Well you can always do what was done with Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[theflyingpig]

The men gathered in the Situation Room had trolled through a number of national security issues

Oh, they certainly did. They certainly did.

 

[Arkaign]

The mideast has been a clusterfuck for thousands of years, and it's not going to be magically better anytime soon.

The absolute best option from a US main-street standpoint would be to completely disconnect from the region permanently, fuck the Saudis, fuck the Israelis, fuck the Palestinians, fuck em all. Of course that would require a legitimate implementation of some energy policy that would be primarily domestically supplied, and we could say 'fuck you Venezuela' at the same time. In other words, without a dramatic breakthrough on an order of magnitude at many levels, we're still stuck in the muck for a long while yet. Without access to plentiful oil in the sub $100 barrel range, our economy would be ground to bits pretty quickly, we depend on it entirely as a nation. In my mind, this is a critical national security problem, as a sustained state of war in that region could destroy our economy. We saw problems with $4/gallon gas, imagine $40/gallon along with major supply issues. How are the trucks going to deliver goods? What about the petroleum needed to make plastics, medical supplies, etc? Yeah talk about disaster.

 

[Lemon law]

Well you can always do what was done with Iraq and Afghanistan.

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Or we can let Mid-east problems persist and persist until the terrorists win.

The only thing now proved is that current conventional wisdom has done nothing to lead to a mid-east peace.

The other implied myth is that such an Obama plan would be a unilateral US policy, if the larger international community climbs aboard, it dwarfs the size of the contenting flying pigs trying to pig all of Israel.

 

[Jaskalas]

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Maybe the Hayabusa Rider implied fantasy is that a nation with only 5 million Jews can dictate terms to a larger world with billions of people.

Maybe Lemon Law will learn the true cost of nuclear proliferation and opt to stop nations like Iran and North Korea. That is if you aren't just hostile towards Jews. In the Jewish case it is too late and they will dictate that you will not take their land from them.

 

[woolfe9999]

The plan sounds sensible, on paper. However, no peace settlement will ever be spearheaded by Obama or any other U.S. President. It is flawed for the same reason that Bush's Roadmap was flawed, because it is based on a false premise: that the impetus for a peace process can ever come from anyone but the two parties directly involved. There will be a two state solution some day, but neither side is ready for it yet. The right-wing Israeli regimes aren't really committed to the process, and the Palestinians aren't even capable of self-governance yet.

- wolf

 

[Fern]

The plan sounds sensible, on paper. However, no peace settlement will ever be spearheaded by Obama or any other U.S. President. It is flawed for the same reason that Bush's Roadmap was flawed, because it is based on a false premise: that the impetus for a peace process can ever come from anyone but the two parties directly involved. There will be a two state solution some day, but neither side is ready for it yet. The right-wing Israeli regimes aren't really committed to the process, and the Palestinians aren't even capable of self-governance yet.

- wolf

Agreed.

I'm so used to the status quo I've come to accept it. If I were Obama I'd spend less time on any permanent agreement and more on 'working around the edges' type stuff to reduce violence and improve living conditions.

Fat happy people don't like to fight.

Fern

 

[Ozoned]

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Maybe the Hayabusa Rider implied fantasy is that a nation with only 5 million Jews can dictate terms to a larger world with billions of people.

The strength of a nation is not governed by the number of its citizens...

 

[PJABBER]

The strength of a nation is not governed by the number of its citizens...

THIS...IS... SPARTA!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Carry on.

:awe:

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

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Or we can let Mid-east problems persist and persist until the terrorists win.

The only thing now proved is that current conventional wisdom has done nothing to lead to a mid-east peace.

The other implied myth is that such an Obama plan would be a unilateral US policy, if the larger international community climbs aboard, it dwarfs the size of the contenting flying pigs trying to pig all of Israel.

Well, unless you decide to adopt Bush tactics and attempt to force those 5 million jews (and you are curiously omitting Palestinians in you enumeration) it won't work. People who hate each other will subvert any plan you think you can force on them.

Tell me how that's working in Afghanistan for you.

 

[Noobtastic]

Obama's latest blunders in the ME makes it clear his foreign policy has absolutely nothing to do with peace.

POTUS does not resemble the peace creeps in Israel. It is clear he stands with the side of the Palestinian refuseniks and rejectionists.

Pressuring Israel has always been a crucial role in continuing the peace process and placating the Arabs. Even after being humiliated Israel plans on introducing more "confidence-bringing" measures while the Palestinian leadership promises a "peaceful intifada."

But this time, this isn't simply the same old presidential rhetoric, this is about bolstering Palestinian intransigence.

Palestinians have rejected every agreement - all 3 of them, without providing a counter-offer.

Israel has always agreed to a gradual withdrawal from Gaza and WB in exchange for peace. Terrorism still continued between 1993-2000, even though Israel withdrew from 80% of Gaza and 40% of the West Bank.

In 1998, under pressure from Clinton, Israel agreed to withdraw from another 18% of the West Bank in exchange for a controlled cease-fire (meaning Palestinians could still re-build their military or at least be able to tell their fellow Palestinians that the fight isn't over), and curb incitement of violence and terrorism.

Palestinians naturally sabotaged this which resulted in Israel creating check points and random road blocs inside the WB - which had never existed before.

In 2000, Israel offered withdrew from 93% of the WB, and 100% from Gaza, while dismantling 70 settlements, and giving the Arab-dominated areas of Jerusalem for their future capital.

Israel would also give the Palestinians "sovereignty" over their religious holy sites.

On top of this, Israel would allow the resettlement of 50,000-100,000 "refugees" to reunite with their families, and create create a $110,000,000,000 INS fund to compensate refugees for their "injustices."

Arafat REJECTED the proposal without providing a counter-offer, and embarked on a war that eventually killed 1,100 Israelis and foreigners and 4,700 Palestinians.

Israel still disengaged from Gaza in 2005, even though 12 suicide bombings had occurred that year from Gaza.

Palestinians, of course, used their new independence in Gaza to launch rockets into Israel.

Does Obama seriously believe pressuring Israel further and demanding unilateral concessions while the Palestinians aren't expected to do anything in return will somehow "bring a lasting peace."

Seriously OBAMA? Are you fucking high? The Palestinians are saying right now they'll never make peace with Israel. One side of the Palestinian camp is calling for a "one-state solution", another side is calling for a Palestinian state without Israel's involvement, and the largest side is calling for a 3rd intifada.

And yet, Obama is silent. He says nothing. do more Israel, you have failed to win the affection of an enemy that wants to destroy you.

It boggles the mind while the Palestinians are still the chosen people. The more violent and homicidal they get, the more the Left loves them.

They fuckin deserve each other.

 

[Anarchist420]

This isn't going to work. Obama seems to think things on paper automatically work in practice. He thinks like a kid.

I say fuck the Middle East and stop worrying about those bastards. They're no good. They're of no benefit to us and they never could be, and I say just let them continue fighting each other until they self-destruct.

 

[JEDIYoda]

This isn't going to work. Obama seems to think things on paper automatically work in practice. He thinks like a kid.

I say fuck the Middle East and stop worrying about those bastards. They're no good. They're of no benefit to us and they never could be, and I say just let them continue fighting each other until they self-destruct.

So much hatred from such a little man!

 

[Fear No Evil]

And when this fails, Obama can blame Bush like he does for everything else.

 

[Ozoned]

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Or we can let Mid-east problems persist and persist until the terrorists win.

The only thing now proved is that current conventional wisdom has done nothing to lead to a mid-east peace.

The other implied myth is that such an Obama plan would be a unilateral US policy, if the larger international community climbs aboard, it dwarfs the size of the contenting flying pigs trying to pig all of Israel.

The middle east problems that exist consume most of the discretionary excess from the $300,000,000,000 that we send to the region annually. That is the goal of our current, and any future foreign policy.


Control,Control,Control,,,,it is what we are good at.

 

[nonlnear]

Control,Control,Control,,,,it is what we are good at.

Well it's what we spend lots of money on. I'm not convinced that we are any good at it!

 

[Zorkorist]

We went into Iraq, and have now established a presence.

Afghanistan, too.

We, are setting new policy in the region, daily.

Never mind, developing bases. etc.

We are so close to Pakistan, they can smell our G.I. issued boots. India, is next door. Iran quivers, and the people revolt... not at our embassey, but at their own Mullah Government.

"Peace through strength." the late Ronald Reagan.

-John

 

[Moonbeam]

Maybe Lemon Law will learn the true cost of nuclear proliferation and opt to stop nations like Iran and North Korea. That is if you aren't just hostile towards Jews. In the Jewish case it is too late and they will dictate that you will not take their land from them.

The answer to wet diapers is to change them.

 

[Infohawk]

Not gonna change. Isreal will keep cleansing its conquered territory and the US will pay Israel to keep it up.

 

[Lemon law]

The plan sounds sensible, on paper. However, no peace settlement will ever be spearheaded by Obama or any other U.S. President. It is flawed for the same reason that Bush's Roadmap was flawed, because it is based on a false premise: that the impetus for a peace process can ever come from anyone but the two parties directly involved. There will be a two state solution some day, but neither side is ready for it yet. The right-wing Israeli regimes aren't really committed to the process, and the Palestinians aren't even capable of self-governance yet.

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In all due respects, I beg to differ. We have waited for over 20 years for the Israelis and Palestinians to come to a mutual agreement but the divides are too deep. And despite all Israeli revisionist history of a Israel as a fair peace partner, the right to return is an issue that Israel can't even consider without profoundly restructuring Israel. And an issue that the Palestinians will not surrender because they have a very valid case.

However, in those heady post Oslo accords days, the world had hoped that the Israelis and Palestinians would come to a mutual agreement, as the best case scenario. And point granted, its still the desired best case scenario. But failing that mutual agreement and watching continual expansion of Israeli settlement in the West Bank and East Jerusalem for the past 20 years, most rational observers have to say the two things. (1) Israel keeps expanding its settlement on disputed land while any mutual agreement looks further off than ever. (2) If the process of Israeli expansion keeps up, there will not be enough land left to form a viable Palestinian State.

And if the Israelis and the Palestinians can't come to a mutually agreed peace, something the past 15 years has totally proved, then some 3'rd party entity must exist to make a fair division. In civilian life inside a nation, that is what civil courts are for, on the international scene its called binding 3'rd party arbitration, and its what I think is called for now to fairly settle the long standing Israeli Palestinian conflict.

And for its worth, Theodore Roosevelt won a Nobel Peace prize for his role in mediating the Japan vs. Russia conflict in 1906. Binding 3'rd party arbitration has a long history of working when the parties can't come to an agreement by themselves.

 

[ElFenix]

And for its worth, Theodore Roosevelt won a Nobel Peace prize for his role in mediating the Japan vs. Russia conflict in 1906. Binding 3'rd party arbitration has a long history of working when the parties can't come to an agreement by themselves.

peace talks are not the same as binding 3rd party arbitration. roosevelt's mediation certainly wasn't binding 3rd party arbitration. and given that the japanese government collapsed after accepting the treaty due to how unpopular it was in japan, i don't know if that's the example you really want to give to the israeli and arab delegations.

 

[Lemon law]

ElFenix, may miss the point, since perfect justice is not possible, neither side may like the outcome, but at least there is a final peace deal that both sides can like or lump.

This is where the being considered Obama plan is different than past failed peace efforts, and if the larger world diplomatic community gets behind the such a possible Obama plan, its going to be very difficult for either Israel or the Palestinians to refuse submitting to binding third party arbitration.

After all, the UN that created the Israeli state in 1948, can un create it equally as rapidly. I would fully expect that a nutty Netanyuhu government would fall, but faced with possible UN economic sanctions against Israel, there are enough very rational politicians to form a new Israeli government.

And with an entire world and diplomatic community behind Israel's right to exist inside smaller borders, and with all Arab and Palestinian grievances finally settled, there would no longer be any expansionist military options for either side to pursue, and all sides can concentrate on peace time economic expansion of their respective States.

But no one can sat that such a third party binding arbitration would be perfect, but it will very likely be much much better than the current alternative. And the big losers will be crazy settler parties in Israel and Arab financed mid east anti-Israeli terrorists.

As for any Israeli military options to resist, its absolutely crazy to think the vaunted Israeli military could stand up to the combined military might of the world's other armed forces. If nothing else, a world economic embargo of Israel would swiftly suffice.

And in closing all I can say is that Netanyuhu really screwed his own pooch by thinking the world will forever tolerate the continuing Israel settlement on disputed lands.