A Few Pins shy of a full socket!?

[aurrous]

I?m not sure if I understand this correctly. I have been out of the building business for a while and lost complete track of CPU?s and sockets. I am trying to put the cheapest CPU for the buck that I can find on the most upgradeable motherboard when I came across several manufactures claiming to have 939 socket mobo that will house a Semperon CPU. After a lot of research I have found 3 breads of Semperon CPU?s. The two biggest classes are the Semperon and the Semperon 64. However, all of them are 754 CPU?s Is there a 939 Semperon and I am just missing it? Isn?t there a pin difference between the two of them? Can a 754 chip be placed on a 939 motherboard? I don?t have both CPU?s in hand to see the difference and I?m not going to count pins on a jpg to find the answer.

For Example ABIT has this chart.. it says that AMD semprons 3.0-3.5Ghz E6 processors where tested on socket 939 boards?

http://www.abit-usa.com/products/mb/amd-sempron754-palermo.php

This one is an example of a Giga-byte 939 board..

CPU
based Motherboard
Page.1 Model GA-K8N Pro-SLI

PCB 1.0
Vender Model System Bus(MHz) 2000
AMD Athlon 64x2 4800+ (E6,Toledo,90nm,L2-1MBx2) 2000 F3
AMD Athlon 64x2 4400+ (E6,Toledo,90nm,L2-1MBx2) 2000 F3
AMD Athlon 64x2 4600+ (E4&E6,Manchester,90nm,L2-512KBx2) 2000 F3
AMD Athlon 64x2 4200+ (E4&E6,Manchester,90nm,L2-512KBx2) 2000 F3
AMD Athlon 64x2 3800+ (E4&E6,Manchester,90nm,L2-512KBx2) 2000 F3
AMD Athlon 64 4000+(E4,San Diego,90nm,L2-1MB) 2000 F2
AMD Athlon 64 3700+(E4,San Diego,90nm,L2-1MB) 2000 F2
AMD Athlon 64 4000+(CG,ClawHammer,130nm,L2-1MB) 2000 F2
AMD Athlon 64 3600+(CG,ClawHammer,130nm,L2-1MB) 2000 F2
AMD Athlon 64 3800+(E3,E6,Venice,90nm,L2-512KB) 2000 F4
AMD Athlon 64 3500+(E3&E4&E6,Venice,90nm,L2-512KB) 2000 F4
AMD Athlon 64 3200+(E3&E6,Venice,90nm,L2-512KB) 2000 F4
AMD Athlon 64 3000+(E3&E6,Venice,90nm,L2-512KB) 2000 F4
AMD Athlon 64 3500+(D0,Winchester,90nm,L2-512KB) 2000 F3
AMD Athlon 64 3200+(D0,Winchester,90nm,L2-512KB) 2000 F2
AMD Athlon 64 3000+(D0,Winchester,90nm,L2-512KB) 2000 F2
AMD Athlon 64 4000+(CG,Newcastle,130nm,L2-1MB) 2000 F3
AMD Athlon 64 3800+(CG,Newcastle,130nm,L2-512KB) 2000 F2
AMD Athlon 64 3500+(CG,Newcastle,130nm,L2-512KB) 2000 F2
AMD Athlon 64 3400+(CG,Newcastle,130nm,L2-512KB) 1600 F2
AMD Athlon 64 3200+(CG,Newcastle,130nm,L2-512KB) 2000 F2
AMD Athlon 64 3000+(CG,Newcastle,130nm,L2-512KB) 2000 F2
AMD Athlon 64 Sempron 3400+(E6,Palermo,90nm,L2-128KB) 1600 F4
AMD Athlon 64 Sempron 3200+(E6,Palermo,90nm,L2-256KB) 1600 F4
AMD Athlon 64 Sempron 3000+(E6,Palermo,90nm,L2-128KB) 1600 F4
AMD Athlon 64 Sempron 3200+(E3,Palermo,90nm,L2-256KB) 2000 F2
AMD Athlon 64 Sempron 3000+(E3,Palermo,90nm,L2-128KB) 2000 F2
AMD Athlon 64 Sempron 3200+(D0,Paris,90nm,L2-256KB) 1600 F2
AMD Athlon 64 FX57(E4,San Diego,90nm,L2-1MB) 2000 F3
AMD Athlon 64 FX55(CG,ClawHammer,130nm,L2-1MB) 2000 F2
AMD Athlon 64 FX53(CG,ClawHammer,130nm,L2-1MB) 2000 F2


Again they are saying that the Semperon will fit on a 939 board..
Aopen, DFI, and a few other companies make the same claim.

What is the real difference to me? About 50$
I am truly interested in the AMD Sempron 64 3000+ Palermo 800MHz FSB 256KB L2 Cache Socket 754 Processor which I can buy for about 76$ for US + SH.

Which fits the persons budget better than the AMD Athlon 64 3000 1.8Ghz 90nm 939 for 135$ US + SH

Second question is this...

If the motherboard Man says they support a 3000+ CPU, can you put a 2600 on the board without cooking it if the core voltage is the same? I saw a few motherboards man that said hey would house the slower chip, but it was recommended that the min. be 3000+
Not sure why that is.. and I cant remember where I saw it at.. I think it was Asus but im not sure.

Lastly, if it is possible for the CPU placement on some boards is it possible on all boards? (bios allowing) ??

Feel free to talk to me like im a complete idiot, but I have been reading technical data and reviews all week and my mind is pudding.

Thanks for the time..
Aurrous

 

[superfly27]

In response to a couple of questions...socket 754s won't go on a socket 939 and vice versa. But, there is one board out there that has both. I think it was an Asrock.
I'm a little sleepy right now but I might look at your other questions.

\EDIT: I also should add that if you're looking for a more future proof board, they should be socket 939 since they take dual cores. Second, you should choose PCI-E instead of AGP if you want to be more future-proof.
But, if you look at prices for the socket 939 Semprons, they're hardly a bargain. As a matter of fact, you'd be better off with an Athlon 3000+.
The socket 754 is also limited to 3700+. That's it. I can't remember, but I think it's 2.4 GHz with 1MB cache although the crappy thing is, the AMD roadmap doesn't show anything in the next year except a really expensive FX-59 and X2 5000+. I got so disgusted, I just bought a socket 754 3400+ 2.4 GHz and will probably only upgrade in two years. (or maybe longer)

 

[AMDrulZ]

as far as i know there are only socket -A and socket 754 sempron's. And no 754 CPU's will not fit in an 939 board you must have a 754 board.

 

[jswjimmy]

there are (or will be soon) 939 semprons.
i dont know if there out yet but they were on amds roadmap

http://anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2476&p=2

 

[coomar]

i think the palmero is out for oem's now (socket 939 sempron)

but yeah, don't try putting a socket 754 cpu in a socket 939 mobo

 

[Avalon]

A Sempron 3000+ only has 128KB of L2 cache. The 2800+ and 3100+ models have 256KB of L2. The 3100+ and 3000+ run at the 1.8ghz you were targeting. Also, s754 chips don't go into 939 motherboards, but 939 semprons should be out relatively soon.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: superfly27
In response to a couple of questions...socket 754s won't go on a socket 939 and vice versa. But, there is one board out there that has both. I think it was an Asrock.

I think Jetway and maybe ECS also had upgradeable boards. IIRC the ECS board used a daughtercard. Or maybe I'm imagining all this.

I think I may have been the first to mention socket 939 Semprons here. A very LOOONNNNNG time ago I found an engineering sample for sale on Ebay, and posted it here as an item of general curiosity.

 

[Pabster]

ASRock has the dual socket; ECS did indeed have a board with a daughtercard. Good call on that, forgot all about it.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

The page you linked us to describes processors that have not yet been released. At this particular time, no socket-939 Semprons are available. That will change in the near future, however, and that page shows which Semprons are s939 and which are s754.

 

[justly]

Like everyone else said, a socket 754 will not work in a 939 motherboard. I also believe there are now two boards that have both sockets, one is based on the ULi chipset (ASRock combo z, with AGP) and I think it was JetWay that just came out with one that uses an nForce 4 (so it would be PCI-E). There are also some boards that use a riser card to upgrade but by the time you purchase the riser card they just seem more trouble than they are worth.

On a side note getting a dual socket board will add a 30 to 60% markup just for that feature (compared to a equivalent single socket 754 board). Considering the added cost you need to be fairly confident that you will upgrade the processor and that when you do you will still be satisfied with the motherboards features and performance.

BTW Newegg has both these boards

 

[Powermoloch]

Originally posted by: justly
Like everyone else said, a socket 754 will not work in a 939 motherboard. I also believe there are now two boards that have both sockets, one is based on the ULi chipset (ASRock combo z, with AGP) and I think it was JetWay that just came out with one that uses an nForce 4 (so it would be PCI-E). There are also some boards that use a riser card to upgrade but by the time you purchase the riser card they just seem more trouble than they are worth.

On a side note getting a dual socket board will add a 30 to 60% markup just for that feature (compared to a equivalent single socket 754 board). Considering the added cost you need to be fairly confident that you will upgrade the processor and that when you do you will still be satisfied with the motherboards features and performance.

BTW Newegg has both these boards

sweet lookin' board

 

[superfly27]

I just looked at pricegrabber.ca and pricenetwork.ca
It's annoying how you can't find those Sempron socket 939 yet. It's like an evil plan to make you pay more and more all the time.
They don't want you to be able to buy a $100 CDN CPU for a socket 939 and have future upgradeability for dual core and PCI-E. Ah, whatever. Nuts.

From a value point of view however, the Sempron 3100+ or Athlon 64 2800+ are OK performers for the price. Those are socket 754. I know some people really like the Abit KV8 Pro mobo. I just checked a couple of web sites and they didn't have any more Athlon 2800+. Gee.
Anyway, a Sempron 3100+ and Abit KV8 Pro would cost you... Ah, nevermind. I give up. I wanted to check the price for Sempron 3100+ on newegg and there was a choice between Sempron and Sempron 64. And there were no Sempron 64 3100+.
Blah.

 

[Powermoloch]

Originally posted by: superfly27
I just looked at pricegrabber.ca and pricenetwork.ca
It's annoying how you can't find those Sempron socket 939 yet. It's like an evil plan to make you pay more and more all the time.
They don't want you to be able to buy a $100 CDN CPU for a socket 939 and have future upgradeability for dual core and PCI-E. Ah, whatever. Nuts.

From a value point of view however, the Sempron 3100+ or Athlon 64 2800+ are OK performers for the price. Those are socket 754. I know some people really like the Abit KV8 Pro mobo. I just checked a couple of web sites and they didn't have any more Athlon 2800+. Gee.
Anyway, a Sempron 3100+ and Abit KV8 Pro would cost you... Ah, nevermind. I give up. I wanted to check the price for Sempron 3100+ on newegg and there was a choice between Sempron and Sempron 64. And there were no Sempron 64 3100+.
Blah.

My sempron rocks !

 

[aurrous]

I hear you when you say you can not do it.. yet i give you more confusion..

PLEASE NOTE THE NAME SEMPRON in the supported CPUs listed... Also note the SOCKET type listed.

Asus
http://usa.asus.com/prog/spec.asp?m=A8N-SLI%20Premium&langs=09
DFI
http://www.dfi.com.tw/Product/product_s...%25&CATEGORY_NAME0B=Socket+939&SITE=NA
BioStar
http://www.biostar-usa.com/mbdetails.asp?model=nf4st-a9
abit given above
giga-byte listed above..

Please note that all ot these motherboards claim they can house a Sempron 64 chip..
They have TESTED IT (which means they allready exist) and it worked(which means they all ready exist).. Yet there are no 939 simpron chips on the market.. ??
So either we are smoking crack, or all of these motherboard compainies are smoking crack.. Which is it?

Ok so amd says they might release it next year.. Does AMD give out prototype chips to motherboard manufactures to test before they release them to the market and risk the technology being reverse eng? I doubt it..

 

[kmmatney]

AMD and Intel usually send out engineering samples of cpus for motherboard vendors to test.

"Does AMD give out prototype chips to motherboard manufactures to test before they release them to the market and risk the technology being reverse eng? I doubt it.. "

Yes, the release engineering samples! They need motherboards to officially support them by the time they get to market. It wouldn't be good to release a cpu and have no motherboards officially support it.

 

[superHARD]

No WAIT a 754 will fit in a 939...You will just have to use a Hammer to insstall it...be sure to send pics!

 

[superfly27]

Aurrous, I think we already said the more powerful Semprons are almost the same price as the Athlons. This being the case, you wouldn't want to choose a Sempron.

Ahhhhhhh!!! Now I see why Newegg etc didn't have the Athlon 64 2800+ in stock. Perhaps AMD is trying to create a larger price gap between the Semprons and Athlons.

Well, we know one thing for sure. They just stopped manufacturing socket A processors. The new cheap socket now is socket 754 for bargain PCs. Next year they will come out with socket M2 and phase out socket 939.

However, I doubt socket 939 will become the motherboard for bargain PCs in the next six months. Bottom line, at the moment, if you want to make a bargain PC, it's going to be socket 754 and NOT upgradeable to socket 939.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: superfly27
However, I doubt socket 939 will become the motherboard for bargain PCs in the next six months. Bottom line, at the moment, if you want to make a bargain PC, it's going to be socket 754 and NOT upgradeable to socket 939.

Perhaps, but I find that a bad plan when you can get relatively cheap NF4 boards (like ECS offerings) that are 939 in the $70 price range, and 939 Venice core chips don't really cost any more than 754 chips. Seems rather foolish to save a few bucks on a "budget" system when for a few dollars more you could open up a TON of upgrade options.

 

[Sentry2]

:thumbsup:

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: aurrous
Yet there are no 939 simpron chips on the market.. ??
So either we are smoking crack, or all of these motherboard compainies are smoking crack.. Which is it?

I'm going to state this slowly, so you understand it: "There are socket 939 Semprons in the OEM market!"

Your assumption that the AMD pages listed all 939 chips was wrong. Socket 939 Semprons are being shipped as we speak. Check out the HP zv6000 laptop, for instance, which only comes in a 939 variant.

If it blows your mind further, there are also confirmed socket 939 Newcastle chips, too.

-Erwos

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: superfly27
However, I doubt socket 939 will become the motherboard for bargain PCs in the next six months. Bottom line, at the moment, if you want to make a bargain PC, it's going to be socket 754 and NOT upgradeable to socket 939.

Perhaps, but I find that a bad plan when you can get relatively cheap NF4 boards (like ECS offerings) that are 939 in the $70 price range, and 939 Venice core chips don't really cost any more than 754 chips. Seems rather foolish to save a few bucks on a "budget" system when for a few dollars more you could open up a TON of upgrade options.

Yeah I agree. It makes a lot more sence to get a Venice 3000 and a decent Oc'ing s939 board (Epox) and just overcklock an inexpensive system to the performance levels of an expensive one. I OC'd my A64 3000 from 1.8ghz to 2.5 ghz on an DFI Ultra-D, and while I could have saved some money by going with s754, that would have severly limited the performance potential and upgradability of my system.

 

[superfly27]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: superfly27
However, I doubt socket 939 will become the motherboard for bargain PCs in the next six months. Bottom line, at the moment, if you want to make a bargain PC, it's going to be socket 754 and NOT upgradeable to socket 939.

Perhaps, but I find that a bad plan when you can get relatively cheap NF4 boards (like ECS offerings) that are 939 in the $70 price range, and 939 Venice core chips don't really cost any more than 754 chips. Seems rather foolish to save a few bucks on a "budget" system when for a few dollars more you could open up a TON of upgrade options.

Not if you run a shop. People look at prices and whine at you because "OMG! It's $50 more!!!". No, I don't own a shop, but read messages by a guy who does build PCs for clients on hardforum.

 

[superfly27]

Originally posted by: erwos

Originally posted by: aurrous
Yet there are no 939 simpron chips on the market.. ??
So either we are smoking crack, or all of these motherboard compainies are smoking crack.. Which is it?

I'm going to state this slowly, so you understand it: "There are socket 939 Semprons in the OEM market!"

Your assumption that the AMD pages listed all 939 chips was wrong. Socket 939 Semprons are being shipped as we speak. Check out the HP zv6000 laptop, for instance, which only comes in a 939 variant.

If it blows your mind further, there are also confirmed socket 939 Newcastle chips, too.

-Erwos

socket 939 Semprons where??? I looked at pricegrabber

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: superfly27
socket 939 Semprons where??? I looked at pricegrabber

Obviously, HP, Dell, etc. are the first people to be receiving them. Do you understand me? They _exist and are being sold_. The fact that you can't buy them separately doesn't mean they don't exist.

-Erwos

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: kmmatney
AMD and Intel usually send out engineering samples of cpus for motherboard vendors to test.

Just keep your eye out on Ebay for "ES" chips.

Originally posted by: superfly27

Originally posted by: Pabster
Seems rather foolish to save a few bucks on a "budget" system when for a few dollars more you could open up a TON of upgrade options.

Not if you run a shop. People look at prices and whine at you because "OMG! It's $50 more!!!".

I agree with this statement, though in all fairness not all computer builders do. In another forum I conversed with another system builder (for those of you who has to know, H8tank, who has been banned from here forever, how's that for a lifetime achievement award :laugh: ). Perhaps it's because of the demands of our particular markets. He felt it "dumber than dumb" to go s754 over s939 just to save a few bucks. My market was (I've since moved) in a county in California that's always in the top two for the state's highest unemployment rate, and for our clients "a dollar saved is a dollar earned." We do have repeat customers, but not the type that goes, "I just got this computer from you a year ago and now want to upgrade the CPU." Our clients go, "I got this computer from you six years ago and now want to upgrade..." Yeah, build a socket 939 system today and see how "future-proof" it is in six years. Note that we were a retail storefront that only sold new stuff, so used and Ebay would be out of the question.