A couple of SETI Questions

[PieDerro]

Ok. I have access to two school networks. I need to know several different things... so here goes:

1. How do I set up SETI to operate as a service with SETI Driver in both WinXP and Win98SE? In Win98SE I used to just put a link to it in the "Runservices" registry entry. However, even when set to "start minimised" the program would initially begin maximised, then minimise itself after about a second or two. I want SETI to be as seamless as possible so the less experienced teaching staff at the schools don't get frightened by the SETI Driver interface when they see it at their login screen.
In WinXP (I only use this on my 2 home computers, no one at the schools use it) how can I configure SETI to run for all users whoever is logged in? I know setting it up as a service is good (how do i do it by the way?) but I want to be able to monitor progress too...

2. How can I set up SETI for manual fetching? What I mean is this. The schools where I work have only single and dual channel ISDN internet access, limiting each school to 64Kbps and 128Kbps respectively for internet access. The larger school has potential WU output as high as 150WU/day, but this would result in internet bandwidth usage of 50MB/day at peak output. Granted, it would hardly ever operate at peak output, but even 30MB/day on ISDN is a lot. I know with SETIq i can set the seti server to flush and fetch only outside school hours so as to minimise the impact of SETI on the general operation of the network, but the amount of downloads themselves will likely not be favourable with the ISP of the school. So my question is this. How can I set up SETIq to flush results (i know that flushing crunched WU's require virtually no bandwidth) but set it up so I can manually bring some Work Units in and put them on the computer manually, either via a CD-R or Zip Disk. I was thinking that I would load up about 2000-3000WUs on a CD (around about the capacity of the CD) and copy them onto the SETIq server every month or so (obviously, updating the CD each time with new WUs). What I wanted to know was how I could go about downloading the WUs (I have cable at home, so speed is not an issue really.. I could leave it to download WU's overnight). How can I set up SETIq or an equivalent program to only flush results in real time, or at night - but not attempt to fetch any results from the net?

Thanks for the help guys!

 

[serialb]

Nice to hear about your upcoming massive assimilation! Hope I can help you in some way. Here goes:

1a) I have used SETI Driver as a service very little so I don't really know how to fine tune it. But configuring your SETI Driver.cfg by adding -min in the first line is as good as it gets in SETI Driver. Anyway, it's just a split second of pop up and it shouldn't be that much of a concern.

1b) For WinXP, feel free to use my customized service install. You can get it here or soni's mirror. Make sure you copy everything to a floppy then install.

2) In SETI Queue, you can choose to upload results only without download new WUs. SETI Queue is capable of downloading a batch of WUs, you can then transfer them to your Queue at school. However there's a upper limit depending on your output. Orangekid's Queue usually keeps around 3,500, which is about 3 days of supplies for the TeAm Queue users. I don't really know if there's anyway to obtain that many WU at a time using SETI Queue without a massive output record. I assume it's possible to fake the massive output by configuring the .ini's though. I can check with it if you need help.

Good luck.

serialb

 

[JWMiddleton]

PieDerro,

This could be great boost for you, but a pain in the a$$!

On item #2, I wonder how bad it would be to set SetiQueue to flush and fetch as needed. That would spread the network usage out over a 24 hour period to where it should have little impact. With 150 WUs per day that would be 6 per hour or about 1 every 10 minutes. The other option would be to have it flush in the early morning hours as you suggested. That should not affect the school and would have minumum impact on the ISP. If you were still concerned, you could call the ISP and ask it they think it would be a problem. Otherwise you will be doing the "floppy shuffle", OK, you can use a CD!

To get the CD option to work you could set the Maximum Queue Depth very low, and always keep more than that number on hand. That way it would flush, but not fetch as the threshhold would already be exceeded. Set the Processing Priority to Upload Results, so that it doesn't even try to fetch WUs until the Results are flushed.

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[serialb]

<< To get the CD option to work you could set the Maximum Queue Depth very low, and always keep more than that number on hand. That way it would flush, but not fetch as the threshhold would already be exceeded. Set the Processing Priority to Upload Results, so that it doesn't even try to fetch WUs until the Results are flushed. >>



In SETI Queue, I believe you can actually disable upload/download if desired. What Pie really need to figure out is to download ~2,000 WUs onto a CD efficiently. I'd very much like to know some way to get it done also.

serialb

 

[RaySun2Be]

You can also set SETIQ to connect at a given time, for a length of time. I had my SETIQ at work setup to flush at 1am to 3am, so as not to interfere with the network during the day. follow the other suggestions and keep several days worth of WUs too.

Good luck with the assimilations.

 

[JWMiddleton]

<< In SETI Queue, I believe you can actually disable upload/download if desired. >>


I don't think he wants to disable the flushing of finished WUs, only the high-bandwidth task of fetching new ones. My suggestion addressed that situation.

As far as setting up a queue at home to get the WUs, that seems like it should be simple. He would need to set the Maximum Queue Depth very high, might even need to Override the Queue setting. I would think that once the WUs are in the Home Queue that you could move them to the CD for transport. If you see a problem with this, or if I'm missing something, then let me know. Would be will to do a test to see how it works.

 

[Smoke]

PieDerro wrote, "The larger school has potential WU output as high as 150WU/day".

Wow! This is the kind of stuff we need. Good luck PD and I want to thank SerialB, JWMiddleton, and RaySun2Be for stepping in here to help out.

It seems to me that SetiQueue should be able to handle this right at school if there is "a" computer in each school that can run the Q and PD has access to it. I'll continue to watch this thread and topic with fascination.

 

[serialb]

<<

<< In SETI Queue, I believe you can actually disable upload/download if desired. >>


I don't think he wants to disable the flushing of finished WUs, only the high-bandwidth task of fetching new ones. My suggestion addressed that situation. >>


Sorry if I didn't make that clear. What I mean is that SETI Queue can disable Download new WUs or Upload pending results independently. It can be configured under settings through the http interface.

For download WUs at home, I think the Maximum Queue Depth is limited to 14 max. So, basically the most you can get at a time is 14 x Daily Average. Filenames might also duplicate themselves if WUs from the Queue are simply removed. (Not quite sure on this one though)

serialb

 

[ShotgunSteven]

I will also be watching with interest. I do not mind getting stomped in the stats by members of my own team, since their good performance will help us to stomp other teams.

 

[JWMiddleton]

<< I think the Maximum Queue Depth is limited to 14 max. >>


I figured it had a max, so that is why I said you might have to Override the number. I just tried a test on Overriding a small Queue that defaults to 21 WUs. I put in 3,000 and it just ignored it. When I looked back at the setting it was "0." I then tried 300, same results. I tried 30 and it worked. But, I bet is allows a certain % above the default. So, if you were cranking out 150 WUs per day and had Maximum Queue Depth set to 14, you might be able to get a good bit more with "Override."

Just test the max number and it is 14.


<< Filenames might also duplicate themselves if WUs from the Queue are simply removed. (Not quite sure on this one though) >>


That is where a test would come in handy! But, it might be as simple as leaving the highest numbered WU in the directory.

 

[Sukhoi]

IsOs made a Win98SE SETI Driver service install. I've never used it, but it's in my help thread. Try it out.

One thing I just thought off..make sure that ISDN isn't by the hour. I think a lot of ISDN is. If it is, you'll want SETIQ to upload the WU's during school hours so you don't make extra ISDN connections. Results are so small (3 KB average), that 150 won't take long at all to upload.

 

[Rattledagger]

In SetiQueue, the max manually-assigned download-limit is 50. I think this limit is regardless of you normally returning 0.0001 wu/day or 500wu/day... Of course, I haven't tested the last...
On another note, the max days you can set is 20.

 

[Rattledagger]

As for the "duplicate filenames" a look on the anandtech-setiqueue should probably give the answer.

In my experience, with multiple queues, the file-name is made before the wu is placed in one of the queues, and the filenames is therefore never dublicated, even then you move wu from one queue to another, manually or with setiqueue.

That will happen if you move wu from one setiqueue-server to another setiqueue-server and uses both to download, I don't know, but you can get problems.
Atleast one problem is that setiqueue is distributing wu to clients based on cache-names, and not the date the wu was downloaded... If server1 has names wu000nnnnn and you moves these to server2 with wu00000nnn, new downloads to server2 will be distributed before the (soon) much older wu waiting to be processed from server1. A solution will be to insert leading zeros in the files from server1, like this: wu000000nnnnn

 

[Sukhoi]

How about just running the old SETIQ? It's much simpler!

 

[PieDerro]

OK... phew!! Thanks for the replies everyone! Much thanks!

Sorry this reply took so long but I have been working flat out at the schools trying to get the networks up and running (SETI is my little bonus! )

JWM, despite what you stated in your second post, the fact that the school runs on 128Kbps ISDN line is why I do not want to download WUs through the school internet. It would by far be the easiest option, obviously, but since the ISP is run by the Department of Education (for my State in Australia) then I can't justify spending 30MB/day of the school's bandwidth, which costs the Department around about 2 cents per megabyte. You can see how this will quickly add up, and my ability to run SETI on the school's computers will cease once the department becomes concerned with the high bandwidth usage.

Also, JWM and Serialb, the main issue is finding a way to transport WU's from my home computer to the school. I only want to have to do this about once every fortnight at the most, or once a month ideally. Thus, the Queue of WUs would need to be perhaps well in excess of 3000. But I'll use 2000 for the time being, as that is how much will comfortably fit on a 700MB CD. Thanks for making me aware of how to disable WU downloading from the school's SETIQ server, so that it will not accidentally download WUs. As I understand it, I must disable Download new WUs and even turn off the overrides related to fetching new WUs when the current Q runs out. Hopefully, if I do the math right, this won't be an issue.

Before I go on, I'd just like to ask Sukhoi to explain what you mean by new ISDN connections? I thought ISDN was akin to a permanent connection... Can you explain the difference please? It's just that I have the other school set to upload AND download WU's through SETIQ during the NIGHT... and if this is causing added costs due to these ISDN Connections, then I am going to have to find an alternative for that school also!!

OK... now to the last, perhaps most difficult point. JWM and Serialb really seemed to hit the nail on the head as far as what the main problem would be. Namely, How do I trick my home machine into downloading 2000+ WU's through SETIQ? My daily average on my home machines is 11, so even setting SETIQ to the maximum 14 days, I'm still only going to get about 170 or so WUs... hardly near enough!! Is there any way at all to change the configurations, editing some *.ini file, or something else?? This is the last thing holding me back from the assimillations!! (other than time of course )

And finally (sorry folks!) which files/directories will I actually need to copy from my home SETIQ to put on the CD? Basically, what files/folders from my home computer will I need to take to the school SETIQ server, and what changes will I need to make to my configuration files both at home and at school to ensure that the WUs are properly credited to me!

Thanks so much for your time already... it is really much appreciated!

-PieDerro

 

[Smoke]

I just tried placing a large number in the cache of SetiDriver and it seems to allow you to put any number you want. I placed 3,000 in the cache and SetiDriver dutifully created 3,000 files. (I did not allow the process to go forward from there because I unchecked Auto Transmit). And for those of you who would want to experiment...after the 3,000 (or whatever number you place in the cache) files have been created, all you have to do to eliminate them is change the number in the SetiDriver cache back to what you normally would have there and hit SAVE CONFIG and they are all deleted.

So, I'm suggesting to PieDerro that he use SetiDriver on his home computer to download as many WUs as he wants.

Now one of you will have to tell us how you would transfer those WUs to SetiQueue.

If there was a way to hide the SetiDriver Icon you could just create a SetiDrivers for each school computer while at home and bring them to school with you on a CD and copy one to each school computer. You would have to change the settings on each of those instances of SetiDriver to 0 cache so they would only upload completed results and not attempt to download.

While typing all of this, the thought occurred to me how did you calculate that it would take 30 MB of school bandwidth? Each individual machine would only be online for only a few seconds. I have a DSL line and one WU downloads from Berkeley in probably one second? I'm getting confused so I'll stop and see what you all say.

 

[PieDerro]

Thanks for the suggestion Smoke. If indeed there is a way to transfer SETI Driver WUs to SETIQ, then that would be the way to go by the looks of it. But after considering the different ways that SETIQ and SETI Driver cache and name the stored Work Units, I doubt that it is easy, or even possible...

The reason I calculated a figure of 30MB is that each Work Unit is approximately 340 KiloBYTES in size. So there are approximately 3 Work Units per megabyte. Using that figure, at the peak daily output of the school (150 WUs) this would amount to 50 Megabytes per day. I said 30MB because more often than not, the computers will not be producing at peak output due to them being used, or switched off on occasion.

-PieDerro

 

[Sukhoi]

Ok, I don't know a whole lot about ISDN, especially in Australia. But from what I read a few years ago, an ISDN connection is just a special phone line. You have an ISDN modem. This modem then dials in like any other normal telephone modem. Obviously pricing varies, but I remember reading that for the most part it was a flat fee per month plus a certain amount per hour connected. If your school has these ISDN lines constantly connected, there may not be any kind of hourly fee. If there is an hourly fee, than I would have SETIQ upload the WU's during the school day when an ISDN connection already exists.

From what I remember, the old SETIQ (v.78) was very simple in the WU naming and such. I don't remember what the maximum # of WU you could download was, but I do remember if you DLed max number of WU, cut and pasted them to another folder, and restarted SETIQ, it would keep DLing WU's. It also stored the results very simply..like result.01 or something similar. I do not know if you can seti v.78 SETIQ to only upload WU's. So your best bet would be to run the v.78 SETIQ at home and at school. Bring the WUs to school on a CD-RW, and bring the results home on floppies. (that's if you can't get the new SETIQ to work right) You'll have some real nice dumps too!

Assim1 knows more about the v.78 SETIQ if you are interested. I have the .zip file of it if you want it. Also, it ran in the taskbar unless you had some kind of hiding program.

 

[Rattledagger]

Well, I've never run setidriver, but since setiqueue is using an ini-file alongside I doubt you can just move the wu between them.
As I've understood it, you can use setiqueue as the cache-server for setidriver. Maybe the other way around also work, but then again you have a limit in setiqueue...

First thing first, as already stated, setiqueue can cache for 20 days, but averages over 14 days. As many of the settings, the 20-day-setting can only be done by web-configuration...

Playing a little around I got this result:
Max download-cache is 800 wu for one queue.
To get this max cache, it's just to edit setiq-dir\user.1234567\q1234/queue.ini
Edit the last line in the file, to something like this:
Stats/Hist13_NoWuCompleted=10000

After editing, it's just to stop and re-start setiqueue, and the max cache-size is 800.

To download and move 2000 wu, at first download the first 800, move all the wunnnnnnnn and wunnnnnnnn.ini -files to another directory, stop&restart setiqueue, take the next 800, stop&restart, last 800, and you've got 2400 wu...
If you've currently using this queue for the local machines also, keep in mind that some of the files is distributed, and you shouldn't move these. With 11 clients, I wouldn't move the first 22 wu* and wu*.ini-files... The net download will therefore be 2334 wu.

To burn all these wu to one cd, you must compress them first. It's around 25% a wu will be compressed...

Then coming to the new machine, it's just to uncompress, make sure none of the files is write-protected, and put them into a queue.
You must re-start setiqueue. If some of the wu is doublets, they'll be removed now...

 

[Rattledagger]

Re: about Sukhoi's suggesting about running old setiqueue, I wouldn't recommend it, since
1: New setiqueue checks if any wu is corrupted, and checks if any of the current wu in a queue is doublets...
2: Very easy to keep an eye on that machines isn't returning wu/using unusually long time.
3: Configuration is done "on the fly", not "edit one of the ini-files" restart setiqueue, didn't work, try something else...
4: Has inbuilt service-install, doesn't rely on other programs to run as service.
5: Multi-user-support...
6: For people with multiple client-types/OS: VLAR-routing to fastest client.

7: For old setiqueue, the max queue-depth is 5 days. Max non-limiting cache-setting is 20 wu.... (the other max is only used if average is caclulated too high...)
8: In old queue can't use any editing of an ini-file to increase the average, since the info is saved in setiq.dat in binary format, and I'm no cracker...

 

[JWMiddleton]

PieDerro, 2 cent per MB! That could get expensive!

Smokeball's suggest of using SetiDriver would work, but you would have to distribute the data to each box. They would not feed back into SetiQueue. But, they could submit their results to a SetiQueue.

Rattledagger's idea of farming the WUs from SetiQueue in multiple passes was going to be my suggestion. Don't know if you could even get it up to 800 WUs since you only have 11 client using said Queue. If you average 3 per day x 11 x 14 = 462, if you only get an average of 2 per day per system your total would be 308 WUs.

Good luck!

 

[Rattledagger]

Eh, I see I input an error, it was 11wu/day, not 11 clients...

JWMiddleton, the setiq-limit is 20 days, not 14.

 

[Sukhoi]

<< Re: about Sukhoi's suggesting about running old setiqueue, I wouldn't recommend it, since
1: New setiqueue checks if any wu is corrupted, and checks if any of the current wu in a queue is doublets...
2: Very easy to keep an eye on that machines isn't returning wu/using unusually long time.
3: Configuration is done "on the fly", not "edit one of the ini-files" restart setiqueue, didn't work, try something else...
4: Has inbuilt service-install, doesn't rely on other programs to run as service.
5: Multi-user-support...
6: For people with multiple client-types/OS: VLAR-routing to fastest client.

7: For old setiqueue, the max queue-depth is 5 days. Max non-limiting cache-setting is 20 wu.... (the other max is only used if average is caclulated too high...)
8: In old queue can't use any editing of an ini-file to increase the average, since the info is saved in setiq.dat in binary format, and I'm no cracker... >>



Well, so, you might have a point.