98.2 of Icelanders reject bank bailout that'd equal a 25% paycut for next 8 years

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
More interesting than anything else is the commentary in the article that points out that while the Icelandic people aren't going to be forking over a quarter of their paycheques for most of the coming decade, Americans will be (see bolded text). Yikes.

Welcome to the United States of Iceland

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- It's time to start paying attention to the financial sinkhole that Iceland is trying to climb out of -- the view from inside of it is eerily similar to our own.

An Icelandic savings bank, Icesave, had attracted billions in deposits from hundreds of thousands of British and Dutch citizens, due to the phenomenally high interest rates it offered. Icesave collapsed in 2008, for much the same reason Lehman Brothers, WaMu, and hundreds of local savings banks did: its bankers used their cash to make complicated, bad, leveraged investments, mostly on real estate.

The British and Dutch have made their citizens whole, bailing out Icesave after it became clear the Icelandic government didn't have the resources to do the same.

Now, they expect to be repaid. But in a referendum there this past weekend, only 1.8% of voters favored a plan to pay back the $5.3 billion Iceland owes. It would have worked like this: the International Monetary Fund would loan Iceland the cash to pay back the British and Dutch. Iceland, then, would repay the IMF.

To call the rejected terms loan-sharking would be a disservice to usury. They called for every Icelandic family to essentially throw a quarter of its income towards servicing the loan for the next eight years. But this isn't the end: one way or another, the bill will come due, and Iceland's 320,000 citizens will be paying for the hubris of a few hundred of their own, who dubbed themselves "investment bankers."

The amount owed -- $5.3 billion -- sounds like a rounding error to Americans, but, per capita, it would be the equivalent of the United States taking on a $5 trillion debt. Sounds impossible, until you consider that our real bailout tab, as calculated by the New York Times, is already $2 trillion.

Moreover, the government has obligated itself to pay out $12.5 trillion if things get worse. In Vanity Fair last April, Michael Lewis wrote, "Iceland instantly became the only nation on earth that Americans could point to and say, 'Well, at least we didn't do that.'"

Yet in a pretty real way, we did do "that." We have a more sophisticated central banking system, and there are more countries, like China, in whose interest it is to protect the value of the American dollar, thanks to their ownership of our national debt.

In that crucial way, we've dodged Iceland's true peril: watching the value of its currency, the króna, crash against the debt it owes in foreign currencies like the sterling and euro. It's looking more and more like our craftiest bankers factored the inimitable strength and guarantee of the U.S. dollar into their reckless gambles.
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,801
10
0
I thought this happened a few months ago.

Anyways, good for them. The bailouts are a stupid fucking idea. Why should banks be exempt from suffering the penalties of their stupidity, and why should taxpayers have to pay for the banks stupidity?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,598
6,715
126
I told the same thing to my credit card company, that the nation of Moonbeam won't pay.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Why the f would they vote after the fact to assume that debt that was mainly used to bail out British and Dutch investors in this bank? Their citizens who deposited in Icesave knew or should have known that with higher returns come higher risks. British and Dutch governments decided to assume that risk and bail out Icesave, it's their problem, they shouldn't expect Icelanders to make them whole with their taxes.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,598
6,715
126
I thought this happened a few months ago.

Anyways, good for them. The bailouts are a stupid fucking idea. Why should banks be exempt from suffering the penalties of their stupidity, and why should taxpayers have to pay for the banks stupidity?

Hahahaha Ever try to run a nation without credit? Iceland will pay regardless of what the irrational angry fools who live their think.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I thought this happened a few months ago.

Anyways, good for them. The bailouts are a stupid fucking idea. Why should banks be exempt from suffering the penalties of their stupidity, and why should taxpayers have to pay for the banks stupidity?

While I agree on the surface it looks utterly stupid. The problem is if you allow the financial system to collapse the cost will be far larger to taxpayers than what they paid to keep the finacial system liquid. Now the key part from the implosion in 08 has yet to be fixed. Regulation and enforcement of that regulation needs to be pushed so it doesnt happen again.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
While I agree on the surface it looks utterly stupid. The problem is if you allow the financial system to collapse the cost will be far larger to taxpayers than what they paid to keep the finacial system liquid. Now the key part from the implosion in 08 has yet to be fixed. Regulation and enforcement of that regulation needs to be pushed so it doesnt happen again.

It's gonna happen again. Banks that were too big to fail are even bigger now.The people who created the mess were bailed out and are getting record bonuses again from taxpayer funds. So basically they have explicit government guarantee to bankers that they will be rewarded for reckless behavior and shielded from its consequences. Why you would expect anything other than reckless behavior with such an reward system is not clear to me.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,598
6,715
126
Good, hopefully they'll take everything you have, including your computer. No more crazy posts.

Who is crazy? You are the idiot that praised Iceland for what I said I did as an illustration of just how stupid that is. You can bet it's you that's the nut case when me and GenX tell you the same thing.
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,372
0
76
I told the same thing to my credit card company, that the nation of Moonbeam won't pay.

Why, because some incompetent bankster used your credit card in reckless spending while you have to foot the bill? Why should the people of Iceland be obligated to pay the debt of a few corrupt, greedy bankers? Instead of supporting these parasites, let them fail, and use the government funding to establish new banks.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
I don't understand this story. A private (?) bank was bailed out by the UK and the Netherlands primarily for the purpose of benefiting English and Dutch citizens who gambled their savings away at a foreign bank.

What liability do the Icelandic people and the government of Iceland have to the IceSave bank? If foreign governments want to bail out a failed private bank, what the hell does it have to do with them?

I also don't understand how if Iceland doesn't pay back the UK or the Netherlands that they will end up having to repay them anyway. What if the Icelandic people just said, "Fuck you!" and refused to pay it? Would the British and the Dutch invade?

I have heard various bits and pieces of this story in the past couple of months but I don't really understand it. (My purpose with this post is not really to make snide comments or to say what I think the Icelandic people should do but just to ask questions.) I'm hoping someone can provide a brief explanation of the situation to me.
 
Last edited:

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Don't blame them, I'd have voted no as well. It's nice to see a people so united behind something actually.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
you can take it to the bank that we wont pay our debt when push comes to shove. Why should I pay for the lazy babyboomers that have done nothing but take take take from my generation all while spouting that WE are lazy? It's that great generation before the boomers that sacrificed blood and treasure to ensure that the boomers had it better then they. What did the boomers do? Take from their children. Greedy insignificant 0's. I think history will show as a whole the babyboomers to be the worst generation in this country. Governments debt is not a sure bet as people can vote to not pay the debt.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
So the private banks and the private depositors gambled heavily, lost, and now the regular people have to pay? Doesn't sound right to me.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Would anyone have voted "Yes"?

Apparently a small percentage of the people (about 1.6%) did vote Yes.

Here's what little I know about the reasons why the Icelandic people might feel they need to repay the $5.3 billion:

NPR Story: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124402760

If final results show most voters agreed with him, Iceland's credit ratings could be jeopardized, making it harder to access much-needed funding to fuel an economic recovery. Unemployment has surged since the crisis began, to about 9 percent in January, and inflation is running at about 7 percent annually, while the island's economy continues to shrink.

Britain and the Netherlands have been pushing hard for repayment and there have been fears that they will take a hard-line stance on Iceland's application to join the EU and refuse to approve the start of accession talks until an Icesave deal is signed into law.

-------------

Although the International Monetary Fund has never explicitly linked delivery of a $4.6 billion loan to the reaching of an Icesave deal, it is committed to Iceland repaying its international debt - the months taken to reach the original Icesave deal were responsible for holding up the first tranche of IMF funds last year.
 
Last edited:

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Investors should lose their money, and Icelanders shouldn't have to pay a dime, but the UK should have the right to invade Iceland and imperialize it.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Actually, the Yes number was 1.8%. (I got it wrong earlier. I guess some percentage, maybe 5%, didn't vote on this issue on the referendum one way or the other.)
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
4,197
101
106
From Wikipedia..

Within the EEA, the requirement for deposit insurance is regulated by European Union directive 94/19/EC,[59] which was incorporated into EEA law by decision 18/94 of the EEA Joint Committee.[60] Iceland transposed the directive into national law in 1999,[61] setting up the Depositors' and Investors' Guarantee Fund (Tryggingarsjóður) funded by 1% of insured deposits. At the time of Landsbanki's collapse, the Tryggingarsjóður had equity of only 10.8 billion krónur,[62] about €68 million at the exchange rates of the time and far from sufficient to cover the Dutch and British claims.

The icelandic people likely lived quite well off the investment income from these deposits. Their government, which is a government of the people, gave every European depositer a guarantee on their deposits. Now it is rather expected for the people to point the finger in any direction but inward now that it's time to pay the piper, but they will be paying for this one way or another, unless the British and Dutch simply forgive the bailout, which is unlikely.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,081
136
I dunno know if anyone cares, but my experience with Icelandics taught me they are a ridiculously proud people. Sometimes to the point of foolishness.

As for the topic at hand, I dont know if theres was a good decision or a bad one.
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,372
0
76
From Wikipedia..
The icelandic people likely lived quite well off the investment income from these deposits. Their government, which is a government of the people, gave every European depositer a guarantee on their deposits. Now it is rather expected for the people to point the finger in any direction but inward now that it's time to pay the piper, but they will be paying for this one way or another, unless the British and Dutch simply forgive the bailout, which is unlikely.

That's a load of horse manure...
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,837
2,622
136
How so, Munky? BTW, cutting out the heart of Mxylplyx's quote and position is incredibly misleading. His point was the Icelandic government's full faith and credit was behind the failed bank. Iceland failed to step up to the plate. What should any foreign government or investor trust them in the future?

Very short sighted move on the Icelandic people-and upon the government both in failing to properly oversee the banks, assuming risks the government couldn't handle and then passing the buck by putting the matter up to a vote.