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90% of guns in Mexican drug war from U.S. is inaccurate.

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Possessed Freak

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 1999
6,045
1
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Der tryin' ta take 'ur guns!
Your knuckle dragging friends in congress and this administration were trying to use these false stats to take away the rights of Americans to purchase certain types of weapons.
Yep, I'm getting my handgun permit next week. Glock P23 40 cal with hi cap mags.
Nice complement to my 30-06, 12 guage and a couple smaller rifles.
Waiting on my damned permit from the Sheriff. Then i get the S&W AR-15T I purchased 3 weeks ago. Already got my Eotech 557 + 3x mag. Like to hit the range this weekend and test it out.
Nice, I purchased the S&W M&P15A back in November. Have yet to shoot it (just got my rod and gun club membership this past week).

I also purchased a springfield XD .40. I could not stand the grip on the glock, and the 1911 .45 just didn't fit right in my hand. The XD fit perfectly.

1000 rounds of .223, 500 rounds of .40.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,511
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Originally posted by: mugs
The 17% number is nearly as flawed as the 90% number. They're excluding a lot of weapons that couldn't be traced at all, even if they're likely to have come from the US. It sounds like the true figure is likely somewhere between 17% and 29%, provided that they were correct in assuming that the 68% that were never submitted for tracing definitely didn't come from the US.

But what is the value of this number? What action should we take because of it? Should we restrict the rights of Americans because of what's happening in Mexico? No. We should investigate the dealers that these guns are coming from, because many of them are aware that the guns are going to be taken out of the country.

The guns that couldn't be traced, either do not have serial numbers to begin with (which means they did not come from the US) or the serial numbers were filed off, there for no positive trace can be done, there for the counting of those weapons can't be postivily attributed to coming from the US.

In order to go after the dealer, they would have to prove that he knew. There is no chain of ownership to follow the gun around. Even if you made registering everygun everytime it changed hads, you're only going to stop the good guys that follow the law in the 1st place.
If the dealer follows the laws and has the 4473 form and a copy of the id from the person that purchased the gun and they passed the backround check, then the dealer can't really be faulted.

Our current leadership doesn't give two squirts of piss about the violence in Mexico. They just want a way to disarm the populace of America so there is less resistance to "Change"
 

Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,031
13
81
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: mugs
The 17% number is nearly as flawed as the 90% number. They're excluding a lot of weapons that couldn't be traced at all, even if they're likely to have come from the US. It sounds like the true figure is likely somewhere between 17% and 29%, provided that they were correct in assuming that the 68% that were never submitted for tracing definitely didn't come from the US.

But what is the value of this number? What action should we take because of it? Should we restrict the rights of Americans because of what's happening in Mexico? No. We should investigate the dealers that these guns are coming from, because many of them are aware that the guns are going to be taken out of the country.

The guns that couldn't be traced, either do not have serial numbers to begin with (which means they did not come from the US) or the serial numbers were filed off, there for no positive trace can be done, there for the counting of those weapons can't be postivily attributed to coming from the US.
I agree with mugs, that a gun that had the s/n filed off, may have come from the US, but you can't assume that it did and set policy based on that. That would be completely disingenuous.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,511
1
81
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Der tryin' ta take 'ur guns!
Your knuckle dragging friends in congress and this administration were trying to use these false stats to take away the rights of Americans to purchase certain types of weapons.
Yep, I'm getting my handgun permit next week. Glock 23 40 cal with hi cap mags.
Nice complement to my 30-06, 12 guage and a couple smaller rifles.
Fine choice. I love my G23

I just ran across this article and this is what kills me, "But Tom Diaz, senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center, called the "90 percent" issue a red herring and said that it should not detract from the effort to stop gun trafficking into Mexico."
Damn the the facts. We have an agenda to push.!!!!
I was thinking about the H&K USP, but really like the feel of the Glock. Sounds like I made a good choice.

The only changes I've made to my G23 are I installed an extended slide release, extended mag release, and a grip plug.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
494
126
Originally posted by: Possessed Freak

Nice, I purchased the S&W M&P15A back in November. Have yet to shoot it (just got my rod and gun club membership this past week).

I also purchased a springfield XD .40. I could not stand the grip on the glock, and the 1911 .45 just didn't fit right in my hand. The XD fit perfectly.

1000 rounds of .223, 500 rounds of .40.
You finding .223 ammo to be through the roof? I picked up my site and scope and looked at the ammo. 12.95 for a box of 20? Friend went to gander mountain and they wanted 22 bucks for a box of 20. Shit .50 cal is a buck a shot. Thinking I should have picked up a damned beowulf lol. If I am going to pay .50 rates may as well get the bang for the buck.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,511
1
81
Originally posted by: Triumph
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: mugs
The 17% number is nearly as flawed as the 90% number. They're excluding a lot of weapons that couldn't be traced at all, even if they're likely to have come from the US. It sounds like the true figure is likely somewhere between 17% and 29%, provided that they were correct in assuming that the 68% that were never submitted for tracing definitely didn't come from the US.

But what is the value of this number? What action should we take because of it? Should we restrict the rights of Americans because of what's happening in Mexico? No. We should investigate the dealers that these guns are coming from, because many of them are aware that the guns are going to be taken out of the country.

The guns that couldn't be traced, either do not have serial numbers to begin with (which means they did not come from the US) or the serial numbers were filed off, there for no positive trace can be done, there for the counting of those weapons can't be postivily attributed to coming from the US.
I agree with mugs, that a gun that had the s/n filed off, may have come from the US, but you can't assume that it did and set policy based on that. That would be completely disingenuous.
It may have, and honestly, most likely did, but it could have come from anywhere.

 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
81
The liberals have no room for truth or facts while they are trying to accomplish their agenda.
 

BuckNaked

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,213
0
76
Originally posted by: Triumph
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: mugs
The 17% number is nearly as flawed as the 90% number. They're excluding a lot of weapons that couldn't be traced at all, even if they're likely to have come from the US. It sounds like the true figure is likely somewhere between 17% and 29%, provided that they were correct in assuming that the 68% that were never submitted for tracing definitely didn't come from the US.

But what is the value of this number? What action should we take because of it? Should we restrict the rights of Americans because of what's happening in Mexico? No. We should investigate the dealers that these guns are coming from, because many of them are aware that the guns are going to be taken out of the country.

The guns that couldn't be traced, either do not have serial numbers to begin with (which means they did not come from the US) or the serial numbers were filed off, there for no positive trace can be done, there for the counting of those weapons can't be postivily attributed to coming from the US.
I agree with mugs, that a gun that had the s/n filed off, may have come from the US, but you can't assume that it did and set policy based on that. That would be completely disingenuous.
When a S/N is stamped into a receiver, it leaves an impression in the metal deeper than the visible S/N itself, and its a pretty basic forensic test to temporarily restore the S/N for ID... It may not be viable in all cases, but I am sure it would work for a significantly large percentage.

 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
They said in the article that the ones they did not send to be traced are the ones that are clear from the markings that they did not come from here.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
0
Originally posted by: Budmantom
The liberals have no room for truth or facts while they are trying to accomplish their agenda.
Please go find a mirror.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Fine choice. I love my G23

I just ran across this article and this is what kills me, "But Tom Diaz, senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center, called the "90 percent" issue a red herring and said that it should not detract from the effort to stop gun trafficking into Mexico."
Damn the the facts. We have an agenda to push.!!!!
Well you know, the red herring of correct facts.
LOL


Originally posted by: BuckNaked
When a S/N is stamped into a receiver, it leaves an impression in the metal deeper than the visible S/N itself, and its a pretty basic forensic test to temporarily restore the S/N for ID... It may not be viable in all cases, but I am sure it would work for a significantly large percentage.
Yeah, that's what I've always heard. They bring it out with acid right?

---------

About the time Hilary and others were making this claim, I saw several officials on TV refuting it. Seems the 'real' numbers were readily available, too bad they couldn't be bothered to find them and use them instead of 'bogus' numbers.

Politicians are truly shameless. If I was caught quoting obviously bogus numbers like this in my profession, I'd be mortified.

Fern
 

Possessed Freak

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 1999
6,045
1
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Possessed Freak

Nice, I purchased the S&W M&P15A back in November. Have yet to shoot it (just got my rod and gun club membership this past week).

I also purchased a springfield XD .40. I could not stand the grip on the glock, and the 1911 .45 just didn't fit right in my hand. The XD fit perfectly.

1000 rounds of .223, 500 rounds of .40.
You finding .223 ammo to be through the roof? I picked up my site and scope and looked at the ammo. 12.95 for a box of 20? Friend went to gander mountain and they wanted 22 bucks for a box of 20. Shit .50 cal is a buck a shot. Thinking I should have picked up a damned beowulf lol. If I am going to pay .50 rates may as well get the bang for the buck.
I have not looked at ammo prices lately, I payed $.40 a round for the .223 and I payed $.32 for the .40
 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
4,159
0
0
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
The drug cartels have billions of dollars. It doesn't matter where they get their guns because they will get them if they want them.
Not if we outlaw guns. /s
You think the US is the only producer/source/supplier of firearms? Damn are you dumb.
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
The drug cartels have billions of dollars. It doesn't matter where they get their guns because they will get them if they want them.
Not if we outlaw guns. /s
You think the US is the only producer/source/supplier of firearms? Damn are you dumb.
He was being sarcastic --> "/s"
 

yuppiejr

Golden Member
Jul 31, 2002
1,318
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Possessed Freak

Nice, I purchased the S&W M&P15A back in November. Have yet to shoot it (just got my rod and gun club membership this past week).

I also purchased a springfield XD .40. I could not stand the grip on the glock, and the 1911 .45 just didn't fit right in my hand. The XD fit perfectly.

1000 rounds of .223, 500 rounds of .40.
You finding .223 ammo to be through the roof? I picked up my site and scope and looked at the ammo. 12.95 for a box of 20? Friend went to gander mountain and they wanted 22 bucks for a box of 20. Shit .50 cal is a buck a shot. Thinking I should have picked up a damned beowulf lol. If I am going to pay .50 rates may as well get the bang for the buck.
Retail prices are ugly but with availability issues everywhere it's a strong seller's market so buy what you find if you need it. My favorite sources online are:

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/223.html
http://www.midwayusa.com/ammunition

Anything in 9mm, .40 cal, 5.54, 12 gauge 00 buck seems pretty hit or miss but if you catch it in stock the prices are typically better.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,531
2
81
oh look, the once or twice a week gun fan boy circle jerk

Let's see - Mexico has extremely restrictive gun laws - the US doesn't - we share a large common border - it's pure coincidence that in nearly every southern Texas town there are gun shops, right?

I love how you guys are all fine with 'only' 20% of the guns being used to kill people in Mexico are from the US, just like you are fine with our rate of gun crime being higher than any other modern, industrialized country.

Why is it that we think our gun laws are so superior to the gun laws of most other countries?
 

retrospooty

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2002
2,031
74
86
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
The Myth of 90 Percent

The number is closer to 17% according to the ATF. The 90% # came from guns which were TRACABLE as guns possibly being from the United States. It does not include guns which are obviously NOT coming from here. When you factor in ALL the guns, not just the ones tracable, its more like 17%.

Its a damn shame that people like Hilary use statistics like this that are complete BULLSHIT to make their point. I think its probably clear she was given this mis-information and ran with it.. who knows if she knew it was BS or not.. but if the # were accurate, I'm sure she would not have been saying the 17% number.

Wrong facts like these, as this forum proves, makes people think that we need to ban guns here. And I believe thats why Hilary and others used the statistic when they probably knew it was FUD. I bet it will CONTINUE to be used even though its FUD. Its just another way to try to take away our rights.
You know, even though I am a liberal, I am not for taking away people right to own guns. I totally believe in the 2nd amendment... But the thought of nutjobs like YOU owning guns really makes me think we shhould tighten up the laws.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: NeoV
oh look, the once or twice a week gun fan boy circle jerk

Let's see - Mexico has extremely restrictive gun laws - the US doesn't - we share a large common border - it's pure coincidence that in nearly every southern Texas town there are gun shops, right?

I love how you guys are all fine with 'only' 20% of the guns being used to kill people in Mexico are from the US, just like you are fine with our rate of gun crime being higher than any other modern, industrialized country.

Why is it that we think our gun laws are so superior to the gun laws of most other countries?
Pretty much every town in America sells guns. What does being on the border have to do with anything?

You're right, we are fine. It's just further proof that you cannot solve any issue looking at the supply side. Everything in life is demand driven, and that's where the energy should always be put.

Because in general gun control has been shown fairly conclusively to cause more problems than it solves.

Seriously even though our laws aren't that good (they're hit and miss, often inefficient/ineffective, etc), they're just better than most other nations with a comparable crime/violence problem.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
Originally posted by: retrospooty
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
The Myth of 90 Percent

The number is closer to 17% according to the ATF. The 90% # came from guns which were TRACABLE as guns possibly being from the United States. It does not include guns which are obviously NOT coming from here. When you factor in ALL the guns, not just the ones tracable, its more like 17%.

Its a damn shame that people like Hilary use statistics like this that are complete BULLSHIT to make their point. I think its probably clear she was given this mis-information and ran with it.. who knows if she knew it was BS or not.. but if the # were accurate, I'm sure she would not have been saying the 17% number.

Wrong facts like these, as this forum proves, makes people think that we need to ban guns here. And I believe thats why Hilary and others used the statistic when they probably knew it was FUD. I bet it will CONTINUE to be used even though its FUD. Its just another way to try to take away our rights.
You know, even though I am a liberal, I am not for taking away people right to own guns. I totally believe in the 2nd amendment... But the thought of nutjobs like YOU owning guns really makes me think we shhould tighten up the laws.
You'll thank me when the Zombies come.. yes you will.. yes you will..
 

retrospooty

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2002
2,031
74
86
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Originally posted by: retrospooty
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
The Myth of 90 Percent

The number is closer to 17% according to the ATF. The 90% # came from guns which were TRACABLE as guns possibly being from the United States. It does not include guns which are obviously NOT coming from here. When you factor in ALL the guns, not just the ones tracable, its more like 17%.

Its a damn shame that people like Hilary use statistics like this that are complete BULLSHIT to make their point. I think its probably clear she was given this mis-information and ran with it.. who knows if she knew it was BS or not.. but if the # were accurate, I'm sure she would not have been saying the 17% number.

Wrong facts like these, as this forum proves, makes people think that we need to ban guns here. And I believe thats why Hilary and others used the statistic when they probably knew it was FUD. I bet it will CONTINUE to be used even though its FUD. Its just another way to try to take away our rights.
You know, even though I am a liberal, I am not for taking away people right to own guns. I totally believe in the 2nd amendment... But the thought of nutjobs like YOU owning guns really makes me think we shhould tighten up the laws.
You'll thank me when the Zombies come.. yes you will.. yes you will..
I'd rather take my chances with the zombies ;)
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,531
2
81
Prince of Wands - you are smarter than this - you think the estimated 6,600 gun dealers along the border in those 4 states are along the border by coincidence? Give me a MF'ing break - your complete inability to ever acknowledge anything that could even remotely be construed as 'anti-gun' in any way, shape, or form - is sickening.

I suppose you can defend dealers like this guy? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/us/26borders.html

 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,531
2
81
I have to comment again - I love how the gun nuts take this article as gospel, without considering the source of some of this 'data'.

An NRA spokesman says most of the guns in Mexico come from S.America - reliable source?
A gun instructor in Arizona - suddenly an expert on guns in Mexico?

There is even a question in the article - why would Mexican drug cartels buy guns in America when they can buy them from China, Israel, or S.Africa - - hello? Does anyone else see how ridiculous that question is? I'm going to take a small guess and say - because there are 6,600 gun shops within 10 miles of the border on the US side? Because cash payments are a lot harder to track than electronic payments? Because tying a straw buyer back to a cartel is more difficult than tracking an electronic payment? Are you kidding me?

Also - look at the numbers - 29,000 guns were recovered - 11.000 were sent back to the US for tracing - and 90% of those were in fact successfully traced to the US - that doesn't mean the other 18,000 guns all are from sources outisde the US - yes, you can still trace guns with filed serial numbers - but I'm going to go out on a limb and say neither Mexico nor the US wanted to pay for the additional testing needed to do that - so I would venture to say that a rather large portion of the 'other 18,000 guns also came from the US but had their serial #'s removed. There aren't enough facts in this piece of 'fair and balanced' reporting, period.

Obviously there are guns in Mexico from sources other than the US, but if you take as gospel this 17% speculation, it's at least as erroneous as those saying the number is 90%.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: NeoV
Prince of Wands - you are smarter than this - you think the estimated 6,600 gun dealers along the border in those 4 states are along the border by coincidence? Give me a MF'ing break - your complete inability to ever acknowledge anything that could even remotely be construed as 'anti-gun' in any way, shape, or form - is sickening.

I suppose you can defend dealers like this guy? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/us/26borders.html
Well let's see...there are currently about 60,000 gun stores in the US. That means roughly 1200 per state, with higher population or higher firearm ownership meaning higher number of stores. Except for California, all the border states have high firearm ownership and California, while strongly anti-gun, is still high population and therefore likely has a reasonably high number of gun dealers. That means that statistically there should be about 5000+ gun dealers along the Mexican border. Given the EXTREME popularity of guns in Texas, I'd say that 5500-6000 is completely reasonable. So, 6600 seems SLIGHTLY high, but still completely within statistical likelihood.

That's if we're only talking about the direct border states, and the entire state and not just some distance from the border. It also matters what qualifies as a gun store (an actual store, or just someone with an FFL). After all, we know the 90% thing is a complete crock of shit, as is the description of weapons by the media, so who knows how the 6600 thing was spun.

If that dealer made illegal sales, he should be convicted of his crimes. If his sales were legal, and the arms were subsequently transported across our ridiculously open borders illegally, then those who transported them should be convicted of the crimes. If you wish to blame someone who is one step removed from an illegal venture (ie the gun owner IF the sales were in fact legal, which has yet to be decided in court) then I would also like to blame those one step removed from our open borders (ie EVERY politician who has failed to militarize the border completely in order to protect both US interests and Mexican stability). If both the dealer and the runners broke the law (as seems likely) then I would like both punished, as well as any of those who allow or encourage illegal border crossing (those politicians again, labor business owners, anyone who shelters or defends illegal immigration or crossings, etc).
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
494
126
The article quotes ATF and Customs officials and notes most of the guns do not come from the United States. Do you really believe cartels buy their guns legally one at a time from gun dealers?!?!?!?!?!?

Really?

 

Pigiron

Junior Member
Sep 15, 2008
6
0
0
Originally posted by: NeoV
Prince of Wands - you are smarter than this - you think the estimated 6,600 gun dealers along the border in those 4 states are along the border by coincidence? Give me a MF'ing break - your complete inability to ever acknowledge anything that could even remotely be construed as 'anti-gun' in any way, shape, or form - is sickening.

I suppose you can defend dealers like this guy? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/us/26borders.html
George Iknadosian was aquitted of all 21 charges. According to Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Robert Gottsfield "There is no proof whatsoever that any prohibited (firearm) possessor ended up with the firearms".
 

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