9 arrested after brawl at Mall of America

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spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
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no, the problem does not get worse everyday......most types of crime are DOWN......you guys just jump onto any crimes involving minorities

Tell that the store owners who have had flash mobs hit them in the past year or so...

Yet another person with their head in the sand that doesn't think there are problems... Wonder what would be going through his head if his car broke down at night in a 'minority' part of town.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I did not know that budget cut on education did not happen at majority white schools. Only happend at minority schools, right? <eyes rolliing>

How much did we spend on "Great Society" program and such? How much did we spend on set aside/quota/give me programs such as free meals for certain minorty group?

Funny how other minorities did not have "Affirmative Action" or set aside or quota programs but are still doing much better than the ones that whined and bitched about "racist" on their OWN failure. I know, it is all whities fault, that's it, right? :whiste:



Budget cuts did happen at white schools - leaving them with bigger budgets that poor area schools generally (and not all school spending comes from the budget).

We spent a good amount on "Great Society" programs; not enough. We cut the long-term poverty rate by a third and the economy has grown well; there are still problems.

Sorry the issue is too complicated for you to understand more than one or two simple factors. The history of racism in this country has not been the same for all minorities.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Tell that the store owners who have had flash mobs hit them in the past year or so...

Yet another person with their head in the sand that doesn't think there are problems... Wonder what would be going through his head if his car broke down at night in a 'minority' part of town.

"I wish more was done to improve things for the people here so it was safer"?
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
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They'd be far safer in the middle class neighborhood. But you don't 'hate gangsters' like you say - you care more about saving a few dollars and ideology than improving things.

Improving things would require their parents to give a shit and for these thugs to idolize people who respect rules and other members of society. Neither of these will happen anytime soon.

Bill Cosby tried to get the ball rolling on how they can improve their lives and we all know how that ended up.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
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Budget cuts did happen at white schools - leaving them with bigger budgets that poor area schools generally (and not all school spending comes from the budget).

We spent a good amount on "Great Society" programs; not enough. We cut the long-term poverty rate by a third and the economy has grown well; there are still problems.

Sorry the issue is too complicated for you to understand more than one or two simple factors. The history of racism in this country has not been the same for all minorities.

Budget cuts at schools? What about increased numbers of illegals/anchor babies who are getting the benefits of public education without paying the property taxes that fund it?

Solve that problem first and your school budget will be in much better shape. This also applies to hospitals and the prison system. I dont know how you can keep thinking that tax payers can continue to support their free ride...
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
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Budget cuts did happen at white schools - leaving them with bigger budgets that poor area schools generally (and not all school spending comes from the budget).

We spent a good amount on "Great Society" programs; not enough. We cut the long-term poverty rate by a third and the economy has grown well; there are still problems.

Sorry the issue is too complicated for you to understand more than one or two simple factors. The history of racism in this country has not been the same for all minorities.

Cuts to education are across the board, ALL schools are on the chopping block. Show me any links about white schools were getting cut much less than minority schools.

Did you know that certain minority group is doing worse than in the 50's? Such as out of wedlock rate, homes running by single parent, males that are in prison or on probation than in school/college and on and on. So much for all the "feel good" programs. Can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink the water.

Yup, typical of a liberal answer. Can't dispute with facts, therefore recite the old tired line of "too complicated". Well, after the line of "rrrrrraaaaaaccccciiiiiiisssssssstttt".
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
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Did you know that certain minority group is doing worse than in the 50's? Such as out of wedlock rate, homes running by single parent, males that are in prison or on probation than in school/college and on and on. So much for all the "feel good" programs. Can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink the water.


Not a good argument there...Out of wedlock rates for whites were almost nill in the 50's to, but guess what ? They are common today. You should know that, look around you in any public space. Single parent white homes are far higher than the 50's to. Blacks suffer the most from having alot of thugs and hoes in their population [its ridiculously high imo] but there are white hoes and white lowlife thugs out there to.

Truth is, all people in this country have bad morals compared to the 50's.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
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There are cities that throw over 10k a head at primarily minority students who cannot even muster a fifty percent graduation rate, money has only so much power.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
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Not a good argument there...Out of wedlock rates for whites were almost nill in the 50's to, but guess what ? They are common today. You should know that, look around you in any public space. Single parent white homes are far higher than the 50's to. Blacks suffer the most from having alot of thugs and hoes in their population [its ridiculously high imo] but there are white hoes and white lowlife thugs out there to.

Truth is, all people in this country have bad morals compared to the 50's.

Truth is, when a story like this hits the news, you can almost guess with an uncanny degree of accuracy the race of individuals who are involved before the you even hear the full story.

If your lame excuse of all people have bad morals is true, then more of these incidents would be caused by other races...

Why cant you admit that these thugs/trouble makers are predominantly from one race? Is that so hard to admit?



"Why cant you admit that these thugs/trouble makers are predominantly from one race? Is that so hard to admit? "

These comes from the top. Racism and racist posting will not, ever be accepted here. If you cannot hold yourselves to some sort of civil dialogue when it comes to race, then go to another thread or get the hell off of anandtech. Your racist posts have no place here, ever.

 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Truth is, when a story like this hits the news, you can almost guess with an uncanny degree of accuracy the race of individuals who are involved before the you even hear the full story.

If your lame excuse of all people have bad morals is true, then more of these incidents would be caused by other races...

Why cant you admit that these thugs/trouble makers are predominantly from one race? Is that so hard to admit?

A story like who is living in the worst poverty, who has had a history of discrimination?

Yes, I can predict that pretty easily which race it is.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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I remember when I worked for a computer company that had accounts in East St. Louis. Fiber running to each classroom, nice switches in each said classroom. "White" schools were running a ton of sh1tty PC's and we had a budget there to keep the PC's running with rubberbands.

Clearly, those E. St. Louis kids just needed more money spent on them...couldn't be their parents/grandparents (who raised the parents) were generation strong F'd in the head...nah, must be they need mo money...
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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There are cities that throw over 10k a head at primarily minority students who cannot even muster a fifty percent graduation rate, money has only so much power.

That's like saying 'prison rehabilitation can only go so far' - which is true, but we're nowhere near the limit.

But there's certainly more to it than money, of course, even in education.

This isn't a recent study, but see its conclusions (from Brookings Institution).

Since the 1966 Coleman report, Equality of Educational Opportunity, another debate has waged as to whether money makes a difference to educational outcomes. It is certainly possible to spend money ineffectively; however, studies that have developed more sophisticated measures of schooling show how money, properly spent, makes a difference. Over the past 30 years, a large body of research has shown that four factors consistently influence student achievement: all else equal, students perform better if they are educated in smaller schools where they are well known (300 to 500 students is optimal), have smaller class sizes (especially at the elementary level), receive a challenging curriculum, and have more highly qualified teachers.





Minority students are much less likely than white children to have any of these resources. In predominantly minority schools, which most students of color attend, schools are large (on average, more than twice as large as predominantly white schools and reaching 3,000 students or more in most cities); on average, class sizes are 15 percent larger overall (80 percent larger for non-special education classes); curriculum offerings and materials are lower in quality; and teachers are much less qualified in terms of levels of education, certification, and training in the fields they teach. And in integrated schools, as UCLA professor Jeannie Oakes described in the 1980s and Harvard professor Gary Orfield's research has recently confirmed, most minority students are segregated in lower-track classes with larger class sizes, less qualified teachers, and lower-quality curriculum.





Research shows that teachers' preparation makes a tremendous difference to children's learning. In an analysis of 900 Texas school districts, Harvard economist Ronald Ferguson found that teachers' expertise—as measured by scores on a licensing examination, master's degrees, and experienc—was the single most important determinant of student achievement, accounting for roughly 40 percent of the measured variance in students' reading and math achievement gains in grades 1-12. After controlling for socioeconomic status, the large disparities in achievement between black and white students were almost entirely due to differences in the qualifications of their teachers. In combination, differences in teacher expertise and class sizes accounted for as much of the measured variance in achievement as did student and family background (figure 1).





Ferguson and Duke economist Helen Ladd repeated this analysis in Alabama and again found sizable influences of teacher qualifications and smaller class sizes on achievement gains in math and reading. They found that more of the difference between the high- and low-scoring districts was explained by teacher qualifications and class sizes than by poverty, race, and parent education.





Meanwhile, a Tennessee study found that elementary school students who are assigned to ineffective teachers for three years in a row score nearly 50 percentile points lower on achievement tests than those assigned to highly effective teachers over the same period. Strikingly, minority students are about half as likely to be assigned to the most effective teachers and twice as likely to be assigned to the least effective.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I remember when I worked for a computer company that had accounts in East St. Louis. Fiber running to each classroom, nice switches in each said classroom. "White" schools were running a ton of sh1tty PC's and we had a budget there to keep the PC's running with rubberbands.

Clearly, those E. St. Louis kids just needed more money spent on them...couldn't be their parents/grandparents (who raised the parents) were generation strong F'd in the head...nah, must be they need mo money...

I'm sure you wouldn't misrepresent anecdotal evidence as generally accurate if it's not, but can you humor me and show it's generally the case minorities have far better resources?

'Cultural' issues are clearly a big part of the situation. The difference is, I ask 'what do we do about it', and you point your finger and think blame ends the issue.

I also have some appreciation that a very long history of discrimination has caused a lot of harm to that 'culture' and it's a good idea to try to look how to improve it. You don't.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
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Key point "after controlling for socioeconomic status". But that is the root issue here, it is not controlled for. Minority students are in huge part doing so badly because they come vast numbers from totally fvcked up home lives with no father who gives a damn because he is awol and a mother who doesn't know any better. No money thrown at teachers can make up for a kid going home and nobody holding him accountable or giving two fvcks where he has been all day.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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I'm sure you wouldn't misrepresent anecdotal evidence as generally accurate if it's not, but can you humor me and show it's generally the case minorities have far better resources?

'Cultural' issues are clearly a big part of the situation. The difference is, I ask 'what do we do about it', and you point your finger and think blame ends the issue.

I also have some appreciation that a very long history of discrimination has caused a lot of harm to that 'culture' and it's a good idea to try to look how to improve it. You don't.

It's generally accurate because I see it day in and day out Craig. At some point it stops being anecdotal and becomes sad Reality.

You want to improve things Craig? Really improve them? Fine. Get Politicians and Administrators to stop tolerating the rediculousness that these classes bring. Which means, you need your town meetings, police, teachers, social services, Everyone these people come into contact with to call them on their, and most especially their kids, behavior.

That will never happen. Ever.

And because it won't, no amount of money or time will fix these classes problem. Which is why you have 3rd, 4th, 5th, whatever generation again and again and again having the same problems, and their kids have the same problems, and magically, their grandkids have the same problems.

But it's all Whitey's fault, or the Rich peoples fault, or The Man's fault, or The System's....funny thing though: It's never their fault, or their parents fault, or their cultures fault, etc. Nah, it must be someone elses fault, not theirs.

Point out Reality to them? You're a racist, a xenophobe, say goodbye to your job as that Admin sells you out to avoid the bad press and/or lawsuit. Get another job? But, you're a racist...so who's going to speak up? No one. Better to let these classes continue being what they are, keep your job, don't rock the boat, and lookee there, 6th gen welfare. Supah!!!

The End.

Chuck
 
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Binarycow

Golden Member
Jan 10, 2010
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It's not about money. It is all about the culture that one is raised in. People who don't value hard work, self respect, education, etc, will produce offsprings of the same mind. There's no mystery to it. Until people decide to change to better themselves, all the money thrown at them won't make any difference. It's all about one's mind set. People who seek to change for the better, of themselves and of others, become Civil Right leader or the President of the United States. The same is also true for the flip side of that same coin. Skin color is only skin deep. Forcing others to turn their eyes blind by crying racism won't solve a damn thing.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Key point "after controlling for socioeconomic status". But that is the root issue here, it is not controlled for. Minority students are in huge part doing so badly because they come vast numbers from totally fvcked up home lives with no father who gives a damn because he is awol and a mother who doesn't know any better. No money thrown at teachers can make up for a kid going home and nobody holding him accountable or giving two fvcks where he has been all day.

I agree. A lot more is needed than money. But money is an area that is part of what's needed and that is not understood.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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It's generally accurate because I see it day in and day out Craig. At some point it stops being anecdotal and becomes sad Reality.

That's not evidence it's generally the case.

You want to improve things Craig? Really improve them? Fine. Get Politicians and Administrators to stop tolerating the rediculousness that these classes bring. Which means, you need your town meetings, police, teachers, social services, Everyone these people come into contact with to call them on their, and most especially their kids, behavior.

I largely agree with that. Blacks have the largest role in changing and improving the situation - but a lot of things are needed. The rest of your post is nonsense, though.

That will never happen. Ever.

And because it won't, no amount of money or time will fix these classes problem. Which is why you have 3rd, 4th, 5th, whatever generation again and again and again having the same problems, and their kids have the same problems, and magically, their grandkids have the same problems.

But it's all Whitey's fault, or the Rich peoples fault, or The Man's fault, or The System's....funny thing though: It's never their fault, or their parents fault, or their cultures fault, etc. Nah, it must be someone elses fault, not theirs.

Point out Reality to them? You're a racist, a xenophobe, say goodbye to your job as that Admin sells you out to avoid the bad press and/or lawsuit. Get another job? But, you're a racist...so who's going to speak up? No one. Better to let these classes continue being what they are, keep your job, don't rock the boat, and lookee there, 6th gen welfare. Supah!!!

The End.

Chuck

That's just you being ignorant making up attacks as a result. You point out blacks are often in denial about common black cultural issues; you're in denial about Xenophobia.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
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Craig, nice job ignoring the fact that Washington DC spends more per-pupil than any other public school system in the country and produces nothing but garbage. The problem is not funding, it's too many teenagers having kids and an "urban" culture that scorns learning and work, glorifies criminality and values a phat set of rims more than an education.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
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I know this is OT for a classic ATP&N black people are a danger to the US thread. But every time I see one I think "what group has done the most damage and are in the position to do even more damage to the US?".

What group:
1. Typically are pedophiles
2. Typically are the mass murderers, typically they use guns and kill people they do not know.
3. Typically are domestic terrorists.
4. Typically are the Wall Street economic terrorists. You know the people who to get richer have crashed the domestic and global economies.
5. Are the executives who ship jobs offshore.
6. Are the people who run companies that pollute.
7. Is the elected official and his employees who started the Iraqi war on the false claim that Iraq had WMD. This war killed and maimed thousands of US soldiers and hundred of thousands of Iraqis. Okayed the use of torture.

You get the idea...
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
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Siddhartha:

The problem isn't a race, it's a culture. There are plenty of whites who buy into the loathsome ghetto mentality that I described as well, but at the same time all the PC justifications in the world can't change the fact that blacks do it at a higher rate than any other ethnic group. That may not fit well with your lefty worldview but that's the way it is.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
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Siddhartha:

The problem isn't a race, it's a culture. There are plenty of whites who buy into the loathsome ghetto mentality that I described as well, but at the same time all the PC justifications in the world can't change the fact that blacks do it at a higher rate than any other ethnic group. That may not fit well with your lefty worldview but that's the way it is.

Paint over the rust to make it look nice but the rust is still there eating away at the underlying metal.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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349
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I know this is OT for a classic ATP&N black people are a danger to the US thread. But every time I see one I think "what group has done the most damage and are in the position to do even more damage to the US?".

What group:
1. Typically are pedophiles
2. Typically are the mass murderers, typically they use guns and kill people they do not know.
3. Typically are domestic terrorists.
4. Typically are the Wall Street economic terrorists. You know the people who to get richer have crashed the domestic and global economies.
5. Are the executives who ship jobs offshore.
6. Are the people who run companies that pollute.
7. Is the elected official and his employees who started the Iraqi war on the false claim that Iraq had WMD. This war killed and maimed thousands of US soldiers and hundred of thousands of Iraqis. Okayed the use of torture.

You get the idea...

It does just show the bias that comes from tribalism.

If you take the US claim Iran is 'a threat' - the US invaded Iraq, its neighbor illegally; Iran didn't invade Canada illegally. US leaders talk a lot about wanting to invade Iran; Iran doesn't talk about wanting to invade the US (and there's no risk of their doing so). The US is flying drones over Iran, sponsoring violent resistance groups in Iran; Iran isn't flying drones over the US, sponsoring violent resistance groups in the US. The US attacked Democracy in Iran and put a deadly dictator in power for decades; Iran didn't do that to us.

The US intervened in the Iraq-Iran war to prevent Iran from defeating their attacker; Iran has not done that to the US. The US has by far the most powerful military; Iran doesn't.

The US maintains the largest nuclear arsenal in the world and appears to have supported the assassination of Iranian nuclear scientists; Iran has not done that to the US.

On the other side, Iran held and the released unharmed after a year and a half dozens of US embassy staff after the US granted protection to the dictator it had put in power.

The US has not held Iranian embassy staff hostage - but it has a doctrine that allows it to go to war with any power who provides such protection to someone it's after.

So while Iran held hostages and no one was harmed, the US has launched wars with nations to take figures like bin Laden and Noriega, who did less than the Shah did.

Conclusion: Iran is the threat to the US.

If you ever wonder how nations like Germany could justify their aggressive war, things like how people call Iran the threat here help explain how that works.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Make the poor poorer, cut education spending, cut activity spending, cut supervision, have gang culture expand, what could go wrong? Obviously it's all about race.

Excuse, excuse, excuse, excuse, excuse. Any more excuses you want to throw out there?