Originally posted by: brencatAside from that, I agree, let them fail. Their paths downward were charted over 20 yrs ago when they promised job guarantees and ridiculous benefits to workers both current and retired, while being unable to make a decent car in at least that long.
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Cant wait for that Hybrid Escalade to get to market. Seriously, what idiot thought that idea up?
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Cant wait for that Hybrid Escalade to get to market. Seriously, what idiot thought that idea up?
I guess the idea was to appeal to environmentally conscious folks who love to drive expensive, hulking vehicles the same way a drug addict wants to get off drugs but can't? It seems kind of silly to make a hybrid luxury vehicle with the intent that buyers could save money on gas since they wouldn't buy such an expensive vehicle in the first place if gas money were an issue.
These companies have been trying for years under multiple management structures/leaders to fix themselves and cannot. This is not as simple as you say; without a continual prop-up they are fvxored and this is why their stock has hemorrhaged value for a long time now. In the end, you're endorsing a government assisted approach to sort these moribund behemoths out, but under a different pretext.Originally posted by: Craig234
We're presented with a false dillema: either use taxpayer money to reward mismanaged executives to protect the nation's interests, or let our own auto industry be destroyed.
Neither is very acceptable, and which of the two terrible choices people pick says something about their particular politics (pro-corporate, anti-corporate).
The real solution would be, IMO, to 'save' the companies, with requirements for serious reforms in the interest of the nation - liberal reforms - as well as liberal trade policies.
The fact that that solution isn't even on the discussion list for the topic shows just how screwed up the political culture is. Under FDR, IMO, my plan would likely be the plan.
That's true, too. "American Auto Industry" is almost meaningless now.Thank goodness we have Japanese vehicles that are made in America in addition to "American" vehicles that are made in May-hee-co.
What punishment would you deem appropriate for the masses that bought them. They had choices. What should be their fate?Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Fucking bastards, they deserve nothing less than to be out of business.
They pushed the god damn gas guzzling land barges.
Originally posted by: Zorba
If the government really wants to bail them out they should change the union laws.
I see where you're coming from, but then no I really don't. Again, Toyota, Honda, etc. why are these brands doing well in the US? I believe Toyota is down a bit now (much less than big 3) because it's fairly heavy on big vehicles. Honda is basically flat, this contrasted with big 3 BLEEDING from gaping wounds.Originally posted by: boomerang
Don't bitch about this here. Call, write or email your representatives. They're the ones that will make this decision and they need your input.
Tell them all the reasons you want the domestics to go down. Tell them you're unhappy with management, tell them you're unhappy with labor. Tell them they should have had the foresight to anticipate the market changes. Tell them the union is corrupt, tell them the management is inept and that the stockholders and the BoD are imbeciles.
Grind whatever ax you have with them while you have their attention. Then tell them you will be happy to support the one in fourteen Americans that are employed or have employment related to the auto industry when they lose their jobs. Tell them that although you are concerned about your impending burden regarding SS and Medicare / Medicaid with the baby-boomers, that you will be happy to deal with the wave of more foreclosures, repossessions and public assistance requests that will result from letting the domestics fail.
Tell them that although virtually every other nation in the world that produces automobiles, subsidizes their auto manufacturers, that we should stay the course, continue providing them with more rules, regulations, and requirements to be met, sometimes even on a state by state level.
Tell them you not only want them to go under, that you are demanding it! Then sit back and gloat at what you have accomplished.
Edit: spelling
How much do automakers need? The Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 already guarantees them $25 billion in loans. Do they really need to lobby for $25 billion more? Do they even need the first $25 billion? GM has been in the red for years and they're still getting by. They cut a lot of costs recently, which is supposed to save them $15 billion through 2009. Back in July (peak of gas prices, mind you -- surely SUV/truck sales will start to pick up a bit now that gas is nearing $100/bbl), GM stated that these cost cutting measures should be enough for them to survive the market downturn until 2010, at which point they expect business to pick back up.Originally posted by: boomerang
Don't bitch about this here. Call, write or email your representatives. They're the ones that will make this decision and they need your input.
Tell them all the reasons you want the domestics to go down. Tell them you're unhappy with management, tell them you're unhappy with labor. Tell them they should have had the foresight to anticipate the market changes. Tell them the union is corrupt, tell them the management is inept and that the stockholders and the BoD are imbeciles.
Grind whatever ax you have with them while you have their attention. Then tell them you will be happy to support the one in fourteen Americans that are employed or have employment related to the auto industry when they lose their jobs. Tell them that although you are concerned about your impending burden regarding SS and Medicare / Medicaid with the baby-boomers, that you will be happy to deal with the wave of more foreclosures, repossessions and public assistance requests that will result from letting the domestics fail.
Tell them that although virtually every other nation in the world that produces automobiles, subsidizes their auto manufacturers, that we should stay the course, continue providing them with more rules, regulations, and requirements to be met, sometimes even on a state by state level.
Tell them you not only want them to go under, that you are demanding it! Then sit back and gloat at what you have accomplished.
Edit: spelling
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
blackangst I though you were like gun ho capitalism dude. What happened? Don't you know when people are hungry they work hard? Let them sink in their failures or swim in their ingenuity
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: brencatAside from that, I agree, let them fail. Their paths downward were charted over 20 yrs ago when they promised job guarantees and ridiculous benefits to workers both current and retired, while being unable to make a decent car in at least that long.
Did the Big Three have much of a choice? From a legal perspective, what would have happened if they said, "We're not going to hire people who work for auto unions anymore; we're going to become a right to work, union-free shop"? Didn't the government force the unions on the auto companies?
Originally posted by: blackangst1
What do you mean? Do I think people get screwed by their employers? Sure I do. I have. Thrice. But what I know to be true even more, is people screw THEMSELVES more than anything.
Originally posted by: Skoorb
These companies have been trying for years under multiple management structures/leaders to fix themselves and cannot. This is not as simple as you say; without a continual prop-up they are fvxored and this is why their stock has hemorrhaged value for a long time now. In the end, you're endorsing a government assisted approach to sort these moribund behemoths out, but under a different pretext.Originally posted by: Craig234
We're presented with a false dillema: either use taxpayer money to reward mismanaged executives to protect the nation's interests, or let our own auto industry be destroyed.
Neither is very acceptable, and which of the two terrible choices people pick says something about their particular politics (pro-corporate, anti-corporate).
The real solution would be, IMO, to 'save' the companies, with requirements for serious reforms in the interest of the nation - liberal reforms - as well as liberal trade policies.
The fact that that solution isn't even on the discussion list for the topic shows just how screwed up the political culture is. Under FDR, IMO, my plan would likely be the plan.That's true, too. "American Auto Industry" is almost meaningless now.Thank goodness we have Japanese vehicles that are made in America in addition to "American" vehicles that are made in May-hee-co.
Originally posted by: ChunkiMunki
why don't we just identify all companies and industries that are "too big to fail" and take them over right now, quit messin' around, man.....jeez.
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ChunkiMunki
why don't we just identify all companies and industries that are "too big to fail" and take them over right now, quit messin' around, man.....jeez.
Close. We should identify all companies and industries that are 'too big not to get a bailout', and pro-actively get new plans in place to reduce our dependance.
Such as breaking them up into smaller, more competitive companies for just one solution, but some steps to pre-empty huge corporations holding our society over a barrel.
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Then we are in agreement. Let them fail. If 1 in 14 people work in autos somehow and the 3 fail do you really think all that ip and all that manpower is just going to dry up? No. Something different and new will come out of it. Leaner and smarter and ready to do business.
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Fucking bastards, they deserve nothing less than to be out of business.
They pushed the god damn gas guzzling land barges.
9-7-2008 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080907...rs_congress;_ylt=As9B80mkzPFc6AppQkj4tIqs0NUE
Auto industry to press Congress for $50B in loans
Auto industry allies hope to secure up to $50 billion in government loans this month that would pay to modernize plants and help struggling car makers build more fuel-efficient vehicles.
"This industry could fall down, literally, or be absorbed if they don't get something in place very soon. I think it's that severe," said Rep. Joe Knollenberg, R-Mich. "Something has to happen pretty quickly because they can't compete paying 15 to 20 percent (interest)."
Democrat Barack Obama has criticized Republican rival John McCain for not supporting the full $50 billion loan program.
========================================================
Obama has it wrong.
The existing auto companies should go down in flames hard and fast.
They fucked over America and they should not be rewarded for it.