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9-7-08: Auto Industry wants $50 billion public bail out

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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,942
126
blackangst I though you were like gun ho capitalism dude. What happened? Don't you know when people are hungry they work hard? Let them sink in their failures or swim in their ingenuity
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,429
20
81
Originally posted by: brencatAside from that, I agree, let them fail. Their paths downward were charted over 20 yrs ago when they promised job guarantees and ridiculous benefits to workers both current and retired, while being unable to make a decent car in at least that long.
Did the Big Three have much of a choice? From a legal perspective, what would have happened if they said, "We're not going to hire people who work for auto unions anymore; we're going to become a right to work, union-free shop"? Didn't the government force the unions on the auto companies?
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,381
94
86
Cant wait for that Hybrid Escalade to get to market. Seriously, what idiot thought that idea up?

 

The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,117
0
76
Needs to be preferred stock with warrants similar to the first bailout of Chrysler. Put them in a conservatorship then and have the government provide control. Although I hate this idea, it is better than giving them money to continue to fail.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,429
20
81
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Cant wait for that Hybrid Escalade to get to market. Seriously, what idiot thought that idea up?
I guess the idea was to appeal to environmentally conscious folks who love to drive expensive, hulking vehicles the same way a drug addict wants to get off drugs but can't? It seems kind of silly to make a hybrid luxury vehicle with the intent that buyers could save money on gas since they wouldn't buy such an expensive vehicle in the first place if gas money were an issue.
 

quest55720

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2004
1,339
0
0
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Cant wait for that Hybrid Escalade to get to market. Seriously, what idiot thought that idea up?
I guess the idea was to appeal to environmentally conscious folks who love to drive expensive, hulking vehicles the same way a drug addict wants to get off drugs but can't? It seems kind of silly to make a hybrid luxury vehicle with the intent that buyers could save money on gas since they wouldn't buy such an expensive vehicle in the first place if gas money were an issue.
It is not to save gas it is so the rich people can feel good about driving that huge SUV. They can spout off the hybrid and green crap. Anyone who can afford a 60 grand SUV will not have any issues with gas prices.

The government has no choice but to bail them out in an election year. If the big 3 went down what ever party got the blame would lose michigan and maybe the election. This is all about the big 3 having politicians by the balls in an election year.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
2
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
We're presented with a false dillema: either use taxpayer money to reward mismanaged executives to protect the nation's interests, or let our own auto industry be destroyed.

Neither is very acceptable, and which of the two terrible choices people pick says something about their particular politics (pro-corporate, anti-corporate).

The real solution would be, IMO, to 'save' the companies, with requirements for serious reforms in the interest of the nation - liberal reforms - as well as liberal trade policies.

The fact that that solution isn't even on the discussion list for the topic shows just how screwed up the political culture is. Under FDR, IMO, my plan would likely be the plan.
These companies have been trying for years under multiple management structures/leaders to fix themselves and cannot. This is not as simple as you say; without a continual prop-up they are fvxored and this is why their stock has hemorrhaged value for a long time now. In the end, you're endorsing a government assisted approach to sort these moribund behemoths out, but under a different pretext.
Thank goodness we have Japanese vehicles that are made in America in addition to "American" vehicles that are made in May-hee-co.
That's true, too. "American Auto Industry" is almost meaningless now.

 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
10,041
4,079
136
If the government really wants to bail them out they should change the union laws.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
11,928
1,262
126
Pretty bad timing to make that request public the same weekend as Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac takeover.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
639
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Fucking bastards, they deserve nothing less than to be out of business.

They pushed the god damn gas guzzling land barges.
What punishment would you deem appropriate for the masses that bought them. They had choices. What should be their fate?


 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
639
126
Don't bitch about this here. Call, write or email your representatives. They're the ones that will make this decision and they need your input.

Tell them all the reasons you want the domestics to go down. Tell them you're unhappy with management, tell them you're unhappy with labor. Tell them they should have had the foresight to anticipate the market changes. Tell them the union is corrupt, tell them the management is inept and that the stockholders and the BoD are imbeciles.

Grind whatever ax you have with them while you have their attention. Then tell them you will be happy to support the one in fourteen Americans that are employed or have employment related to the auto industry when they lose their jobs. Tell them that although you are concerned about your impending burden regarding SS and Medicare / Medicaid with the baby-boomers, that you will be happy to deal with the wave of more foreclosures, repossessions and public assistance requests that will result from letting the domestics fail.

Tell them that although virtually every other nation in the world that produces automobiles, subsidizes their auto manufacturers, that we should stay the course, continue providing them with more rules, regulations, and requirements to be met, sometimes even on a state by state level.

Tell them you not only want them to go under, that you are demanding it! Then sit back and gloat at what you have accomplished.

Edit: spelling
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
2
0
Originally posted by: boomerang
Don't bitch about this here. Call, write or email your representatives. They're the ones that will make this decision and they need your input.

Tell them all the reasons you want the domestics to go down. Tell them you're unhappy with management, tell them you're unhappy with labor. Tell them they should have had the foresight to anticipate the market changes. Tell them the union is corrupt, tell them the management is inept and that the stockholders and the BoD are imbeciles.

Grind whatever ax you have with them while you have their attention. Then tell them you will be happy to support the one in fourteen Americans that are employed or have employment related to the auto industry when they lose their jobs. Tell them that although you are concerned about your impending burden regarding SS and Medicare / Medicaid with the baby-boomers, that you will be happy to deal with the wave of more foreclosures, repossessions and public assistance requests that will result from letting the domestics fail.

Tell them that although virtually every other nation in the world that produces automobiles, subsidizes their auto manufacturers, that we should stay the course, continue providing them with more rules, regulations, and requirements to be met, sometimes even on a state by state level.

Tell them you not only want them to go under, that you are demanding it! Then sit back and gloat at what you have accomplished.

Edit: spelling
I see where you're coming from, but then no I really don't. Again, Toyota, Honda, etc. why are these brands doing well in the US? I believe Toyota is down a bit now (much less than big 3) because it's fairly heavy on big vehicles. Honda is basically flat, this contrasted with big 3 BLEEDING from gaping wounds.

Maybe those other countries shouldn't subsidize auto manufacturers. Maybe if they didn't, among other things, they'd have per capita GDP in the same ballpark as the US?
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
0
Originally posted by: boomerang
Don't bitch about this here. Call, write or email your representatives. They're the ones that will make this decision and they need your input.

Tell them all the reasons you want the domestics to go down. Tell them you're unhappy with management, tell them you're unhappy with labor. Tell them they should have had the foresight to anticipate the market changes. Tell them the union is corrupt, tell them the management is inept and that the stockholders and the BoD are imbeciles.

Grind whatever ax you have with them while you have their attention. Then tell them you will be happy to support the one in fourteen Americans that are employed or have employment related to the auto industry when they lose their jobs. Tell them that although you are concerned about your impending burden regarding SS and Medicare / Medicaid with the baby-boomers, that you will be happy to deal with the wave of more foreclosures, repossessions and public assistance requests that will result from letting the domestics fail.

Tell them that although virtually every other nation in the world that produces automobiles, subsidizes their auto manufacturers, that we should stay the course, continue providing them with more rules, regulations, and requirements to be met, sometimes even on a state by state level.

Tell them you not only want them to go under, that you are demanding it! Then sit back and gloat at what you have accomplished.

Edit: spelling
How much do automakers need? The Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 already guarantees them $25 billion in loans. Do they really need to lobby for $25 billion more? Do they even need the first $25 billion? GM has been in the red for years and they're still getting by. They cut a lot of costs recently, which is supposed to save them $15 billion through 2009. Back in July (peak of gas prices, mind you -- surely SUV/truck sales will start to pick up a bit now that gas is nearing $100/bbl), GM stated that these cost cutting measures should be enough for them to survive the market downturn until 2010, at which point they expect business to pick back up.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,979
849
126
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
blackangst I though you were like gun ho capitalism dude. What happened? Don't you know when people are hungry they work hard? Let them sink in their failures or swim in their ingenuity
What do you mean? Do I think people get screwed by their employers? Sure I do. I have. Thrice. But what I know to be true even more, is people screw THEMSELVES more than anything.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,979
849
126
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: brencatAside from that, I agree, let them fail. Their paths downward were charted over 20 yrs ago when they promised job guarantees and ridiculous benefits to workers both current and retired, while being unable to make a decent car in at least that long.
Did the Big Three have much of a choice? From a legal perspective, what would have happened if they said, "We're not going to hire people who work for auto unions anymore; we're going to become a right to work, union-free shop"? Didn't the government force the unions on the auto companies?
No.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,942
126
Originally posted by: blackangst1
What do you mean? Do I think people get screwed by their employers? Sure I do. I have. Thrice. But what I know to be true even more, is people screw THEMSELVES more than anything.
Then we are in agreement. Let them fail. If 1 in 14 people work in autos somehow and the 3 fail do you really think all that ip and all that manpower is just going to dry up? No. Something different and new will come out of it. Leaner and smarter and ready to do business. I know you guys think I'm a liberal and i probably am but not when it comes to these companies being responsible for their own fuck ups. Capitalism moves fast because those that are first make the riches. How can all these republicans be against this idea? God. You guys are insane. Yours is the party of abortions and terrorists get with it. Nobody with a brain cares about that shit.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
126
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: Craig234
We're presented with a false dillema: either use taxpayer money to reward mismanaged executives to protect the nation's interests, or let our own auto industry be destroyed.

Neither is very acceptable, and which of the two terrible choices people pick says something about their particular politics (pro-corporate, anti-corporate).

The real solution would be, IMO, to 'save' the companies, with requirements for serious reforms in the interest of the nation - liberal reforms - as well as liberal trade policies.

The fact that that solution isn't even on the discussion list for the topic shows just how screwed up the political culture is. Under FDR, IMO, my plan would likely be the plan.
These companies have been trying for years under multiple management structures/leaders to fix themselves and cannot. This is not as simple as you say; without a continual prop-up they are fvxored and this is why their stock has hemorrhaged value for a long time now. In the end, you're endorsing a government assisted approach to sort these moribund behemoths out, but under a different pretext.
Thank goodness we have Japanese vehicles that are made in America in addition to "American" vehicles that are made in May-hee-co.
That's true, too. "American Auto Industry" is almost meaningless now.

Your second quote was not from me. As for the first quote, I hardly expect a proposal for something quite different to be accepted without a big fight and process, I'm just 'sayin.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
126
Originally posted by: ChunkiMunki
why don't we just identify all companies and industries that are "too big to fail" and take them over right now, quit messin' around, man.....jeez.
Close. We should identify all companies and industries that are 'too big not to get a bailout', and pro-actively get new plans in place to reduce our dependance.

Such as breaking them up into smaller, more competitive companies for just one solution, but some steps to pre-empty huge corporations holding our society over a barrel.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ChunkiMunki
why don't we just identify all companies and industries that are "too big to fail" and take them over right now, quit messin' around, man.....jeez.
Close. We should identify all companies and industries that are 'too big not to get a bailout', and pro-actively get new plans in place to reduce our dependance.

Such as breaking them up into smaller, more competitive companies for just one solution, but some steps to pre-empty huge corporations holding our society over a barrel.
That was done in 1984 to AT&T but they lobbied DC to get back into one opiece but bigger than ever pre-1984 because they expanded into the Internets and Cell phone business.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,708
9
81
Geez, they should ask the oil industry for a bailout. No big american SUVs on the roads = oil business becomes much less profitable.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,429
20
81
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Then we are in agreement. Let them fail. If 1 in 14 people work in autos somehow and the 3 fail do you really think all that ip and all that manpower is just going to dry up? No. Something different and new will come out of it. Leaner and smarter and ready to do business.
Kinda like how the nation's millions of unemployed and underemployed people (available manpower) hasn't dried up? Just what is coming out of that pool of labor right now? Maybe jobs will come available as soon as they're willing to work for Chinese and Indian wages and standard of living.


 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,773
11
81
I hope they fail to be honest with you. Their unions + brainless management over the past 2-3 decades deserves nothing less.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
19,425
2,272
126
If any party voted against this right now they would lose Michigan in the election this year. If the big three tank - so does most of Michigan (worse that we already are) and the residents know it. I am not saying its right or wrong but I can tell you that both candidates are pandering to the concerned auto workers of Michigan with campaign slogans telling us that they will 'revitalize Michigan's auto industry' so they can get their vote

 

351Cleveland

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2001
1,381
6
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Fucking bastards, they deserve nothing less than to be out of business.

They pushed the god damn gas guzzling land barges.

9-7-2008 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080907/ap_on_go_co/automakers_congress;_ylt=As9B80mkzPFc6AppQkj4tIqs0NUE

Auto industry to press Congress for $50B in loans

Auto industry allies hope to secure up to $50 billion in government loans this month that would pay to modernize plants and help struggling car makers build more fuel-efficient vehicles.

"This industry could fall down, literally, or be absorbed if they don't get something in place very soon. I think it's that severe," said Rep. Joe Knollenberg, R-Mich. "Something has to happen pretty quickly because they can't compete paying 15 to 20 percent (interest)."

Democrat Barack Obama has criticized Republican rival John McCain for not supporting the full $50 billion loan program.
========================================================

Obama has it wrong.

The existing auto companies should go down in flames hard and fast.

They fucked over America and they should not be rewarded for it.
*TIES OFF AND TAPS A VEIN*

Time to end it boys... I AGREE with Dave! Businesses rise and fall on their own merits. The Big Three dug their own graves by sucumbing to unions and building sub-par products. If they can't make it, then they need to fold. Sorry.
 

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