9/11 Commission suspected Pentagon lied to them, considered criminal investigation

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...1/AR2006080101300.html

From the Jessica Lynch fiasco, to the Pat Tillman coverup, to this. What was the point of the 9/11 commission when the Pentagon is actively lying to the American public?

9/11 Panel Suspected Deception by Pentagon
Allegations Brought to Inspectors General

By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 2, 2006; A03

Some staff members and commissioners of the Sept. 11 panel concluded that the Pentagon's initial story of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public rather than a reflection of the fog of events on that day, according to sources involved in the debate.

Suspicion of wrongdoing ran so deep that the 10-member commission, in a secret meeting at the end of its tenure in summer 2004, debated referring the matter to the Justice Department for criminal investigation, according to several commission sources. Staff members and some commissioners thought that e-mails and other evidence provided enough probable cause to believe that military and aviation officials violated the law by making false statements to Congress and to the commission, hoping to hide the bungled response to the hijackings, these sources said.

In the end, the panel agreed to a compromise, turning over the allegations to the inspectors general for the Defense and Transportation departments, who can make criminal referrals if they believe they are warranted, officials said.

"We to this day don't know why NORAD [the North American Aerospace Command] told us what they told us," said Thomas H. Kean, the former New Jersey Republican governor who led the commission. "It was just so far from the truth. . . . It's one of those loose ends that never got tied."

Although the commission's landmark report made it clear that the Defense Department's early versions of events on the day of the attacks were inaccurate, the revelation that it considered criminal referrals reveals how skeptically those reports were viewed by the panel and provides a glimpse of the tension between it and the Bush administration.

A Pentagon spokesman said yesterday that the inspector general's office will soon release a report addressing whether testimony delivered to the commission was "knowingly false." A separate report, delivered secretly to Congress in May 2005, blamed inaccuracies in part on problems with the way the Defense Department kept its records, according to a summary released yesterday.

A spokesman for the Transportation Department's inspector general's office said its investigation is complete and that a final report is being drafted. Laura Brown, a spokeswoman for the Federal Aviation Administration, said she could not comment on the inspector general's inquiry.

In an article scheduled to be on newsstands today, Vanity Fair magazine reports aspects of the commission debate -- though it does not mention the possible criminal referrals -- and publishes lengthy excerpts from military audiotapes recorded on Sept. 11. ABC News aired excerpts last night.

For more than two years after the attacks, officials with NORAD and the FAA provided inaccurate information about the response to the hijackings in testimony and media appearances. Authorities suggested that U.S. air defenses had reacted quickly, that jets had been scrambled in response to the last two hijackings and that fighters were prepared to shoot down United Airlines Flight 93 if it threatened Washington.

In fact, the commission reported a year later, audiotapes from NORAD's Northeast headquarters and other evidence showed clearly that the military never had any of the hijacked airliners in its sights and at one point chased a phantom aircraft -- American Airlines Flight 11 -- long after it had crashed into the World Trade Center.

Maj. Gen. Larry Arnold and Col. Alan Scott told the commission that NORAD had begun tracking United 93 at 9:16 a.m., but the commission determined that the airliner was not hijacked until 12 minutes later. The military was not aware of the flight until after it had crashed in Pennsylvania.

These and other discrepancies did not become clear until the commission, forced to use subpoenas, obtained audiotapes from the FAA and NORAD, officials said. The agencies' reluctance to release the tapes -- along with e-mails, erroneous public statements and other evidence -- led some of the panel's staff members and commissioners to believe that authorities sought to mislead the commission and the public about what happened on Sept. 11.

"I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described," John Farmer, a former New Jersey attorney general who led the staff inquiry into events on Sept. 11, said in a recent interview. "The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years. . . . This is not spin. This is not true."

Arnold, who could not be reached for comment yesterday, told the commission in 2004 that he did not have all the information unearthed by the panel when he testified earlier. Other military officials also denied any intent to mislead the panel.

John F. Lehman, a Republican commission member and former Navy secretary, said in a recent interview that he believed the panel may have been lied to but that he did not believe the evidence was sufficient to support a criminal referral.

"My view of that was that whether it was willful or just the fog of stupid bureaucracy, I don't know," Lehman said. "But in the order of magnitude of things, going after bureaucrats because they misled the commission didn't seem to make sense to me."
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
As we all know---garbage in garbage out. So if the inputs the 911 commission was given was garbage, we can conclude the conclusions of the Baker Hamilton report are likewise garbage. And therefore we can understand why GWB&co are ignoring the conclusions of Baker Hamilton. But its GWB&co, who fed in the initial garbage to the 911 commission.
So its circular reasoning information overload---error error error---and we are sorry but we need to reboot the operating system. Beam me up Scotty, there is no intelligent life down there when we realize that the reasoning the decider used to decide is likewise the products of a set of total idiots who can't think their way out of a paper bag.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
There were flaws in the system.

NORAD, FAA & Defense each had failures.

the main reason is taht our perception of a threat and responses to it came from outside our borders, attack inward.

Nothing was expected of threats from within the system.

Therefore there will be confusion and mistakes - from procedures, the communications, personel able to comprehent information and execution/response.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
This is rather old news. What has transpired in the meantime? has it just been dropped?

Fern
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
There were flaws in the system.

NORAD, FAA & Defense each had failures.

the main reason is taht our perception of a threat and responses to it came from outside our borders, attack inward.

Nothing was expected of threats from within the system.

Therefore there will be confusion and mistakes - from procedures, the communications, personel able to comprehent information and execution/response.

Yes..like this attack from within
http://video.yahoo.com/video/p...d=1075364163&fr=ytff1-

It is really sad to believe that our nations security measures never thought about something like this happening.. I don't believe it.. but not sure what the opposite is
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
And it never seems to occur to us that its never too late to seek to remove the garbage input, replace garbage with factual inputs, and get a report out that can be good inputs in and valid conclusions out. It may be too late to repair the present damages, but at least we may avoid making the same mistakes again.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,285
8,324
136
Originally posted by: dahunan
It is really sad to believe that our nations security measures never thought about something like this happening.. I don't believe it.. but not sure what the opposite is

It's obvious that our defense systems have been designed for foreign militaries, not for every possible scenario such as people in our country using the planes as missiles. Our allowance of terrorist fighters into our country to carry out attacks from within is a threat we have never before faced, especially with regards to them operating aircraft for use as a missile.

It?s nice to sit here in 2007 and say they should have prepared for something that did not exist in the history books, but you ARE saying this after the event, what would you have said on September 10th?
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
1,307
0
0
Originally posted by: Lemon law
And it never seems to occur to us that its never too late to seek to remove the garbage input, replace garbage with factual inputs, and get a report out that can be good inputs in and valid conclusions out. It may be too late to repair the present damages, but at least we may avoid making the same mistakes again.

IMO it's too late to get any real answers about 9/11.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: dahunan
It is really sad to believe that our nations security measures never thought about something like this happening.. I don't believe it.. but not sure what the opposite is

It's obvious that our defense systems have been designed for foreign militaries, not for every possible scenario such as people in our country using the planes as missiles. Our allowance of terrorist fighters into our country to carry out attacks from within is a threat we have never before faced, especially with regards to them operating aircraft for use as a missile.

It?s nice to sit here in 2007 and say they should have prepared for something that did not exist in the history books, but you ARE saying this after the event, what would you have said on September 10th?

I respect what you are saying but it does not take a rocket scientist to think of ways an enemy might attack us..

He had reports for months on his desk that bin laden was thinking of using planes as missiles...

Some terrorist group made plans to do the same thing many years ago

Terrorists have been hijacking planes for decades

There really isn't an excuse for the incompetence that led to this attack..
our computer systems were a fvcking joke.. the assholes in the agencies were too arrogant and had their heads toooo far up their asses to respect AMERICANS so they wouldn't even share databases and information etc...

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNat...0205/NAT20020530d.html

What about Coleen Rowley?
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020603/memo.html


How do you explain this
http://www.ratical.org/ratvill...nkscopy/ContPlanP.html

^^ The military has removed the original links
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
There were flaws in the system.

NORAD, FAA & Defense each had failures.

the main reason is taht our perception of a threat and responses to it came from outside our borders, attack inward.

Nothing was expected of threats from within the system.

Therefore there will be confusion and mistakes - from procedures, the communications, personel able to comprehent information and execution/response.
If I'm understanding this thread correctly, "confusion and mistakes" isn't the issue here. This is..."...the Pentagon's initial story of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public..."


 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: dahunan
It is really sad to believe that our nations security measures never thought about something like this happening.. I don't believe it.. but not sure what the opposite is

It's obvious that our defense systems have been designed for foreign militaries, not for every possible scenario such as people in our country using the planes as missiles. Our allowance of terrorist fighters into our country to carry out attacks from within is a threat we have never before faced, especially with regards to them operating aircraft for use as a missile.

It?s nice to sit here in 2007 and say they should have prepared for something that did not exist in the history books, but you ARE saying this after the event, what would you have said on September 10th?

Back in 1999 when Payne Steward's plane depresuurized they had US military jets following it with orders to shoot it down if it looked like it might crash into a populated area. Surely they had considered the 9/11 scenario as a possibility. It wasn't like it would have been the first time a plane had crashed into a tall building.

Alos, I believe they have a missle defense system on top of the white house for such an occasssion?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
From what I have read is that the vast majority of our civil air defense is woefully lacking. Evidently a good portion of our air coverage comes from civilian sources and the military resources haven't been upgraded since the cold war (for the most part). It was also said that even if they detected a bomber that in most areas it would be in range of major coastal cities before we could even think of intercepting it.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Darwin333
From what I have read is that the vast majority of our civil air defense is woefully lacking. Evidently a good portion of our air coverage comes from civilian sources and the military resources haven't been upgraded since the cold war (for the most part). It was also said that even if they detected a bomber that in most areas it would be in range of major coastal cities before we could even think of intercepting it.

Fair enough, but just how many bombers do we have to intercept? The terrorists aren't flying Soviet bombers toward New York, having a robust civil air defense doesn't seem like a good strategy against our current enemies.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Darwin333
From what I have read is that the vast majority of our civil air defense is woefully lacking. Evidently a good portion of our air coverage comes from civilian sources and the military resources haven't been upgraded since the cold war (for the most part). It was also said that even if they detected a bomber that in most areas it would be in range of major coastal cities before we could even think of intercepting it.

Fair enough, but just how many bombers do we have to intercept? The terrorists aren't flying Soviet bombers toward New York, having a robust civil air defense doesn't seem like a good strategy against our current enemies.

Having a robust civil air defense is a good strategy period. Regardless of who out enemies currently are. Its not something that can be remedied in a few weeks or months should we need it. Its the same as saying "how many nuclear missiles do we have to intercept?" and letting the early detection systems degrade to a point that it can no longer do its job properly.

My point was that if we can't stop a Soviet bomber from bombing Miami then why is anyone surprised that we can't defend our airspace against planes that are already over the US. Some people lied to congress and they should be prosecuted for that but is it all that surprising that the military told the Congress and the public that they where "on top of the problem" versus telling the American people that they could not protect or defend most of the airspace over the US in a timely manor?
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Well, we had little to no chance of getting the first plane or two that the terrorists crashed, but you would have thought we would have regrouped in time to catch the one of the last two? Apparently they have had time to build a new center to help the military keep track of sir traffic in the CONUS.

Center to monitor air traffic in continental U.S.

And it lookls like it could have been done before 9/11 if they hadn't been caught with their pants down.

FIRST AIR FORCE REMAINS VIGILANT

"First Air Force, CONR and U.S. Northern Command, are working in close collaboration with DHS, FAA and other interagency partners to deter, disrupt and, when necessary, confront any attack planned against the homeland," said General Morrow.

Since Sept. 11, 2001, NORAD fighters have responded to more than 2,400 possible air threats in the United States, Canada and Alaska, and have flown more than 44,000 sorties with the support of Airborne Warning and Control System and air-to-air-refueling aircraft.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
29,240
41,367
136
It is really sad to believe that our nations security measures never thought about something like this happening.. I don't believe it.. but not sure what the opposite is


Of course they thought about it; if I recall correctly Richard Clarke recounts in his first book how they ran something like 3 separate airline hijacking exercises in 1997-98. The FAA first talked about the possibility back in the Reagan years I think.

In 1999 the National Intelligence Council, an affiliate of the CIA, prepped a report that warned of terrorists associated with bin Laden might hijack an airplane and crash it into the Pentagon.

Makes the Bush admin ignoring the 'AQ determined to strike within US borders' alert all the more disgusting.

The "no one saw this coming" crowd is ignorantly grasping at straws, as they have been for some years.
 

Appledrop

Platinum Member
Aug 25, 2004
2,340
0
0
umm
im sure the us air defence is and was just fine. but if the gov wants planes to crash into buildings, and explosions to topple towers, then its unlikely any amount of advance warning is going to stop that
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,807
2,515
136
Originally posted by: QuaziK
umm
im sure the us air defence is and was just fine. but if the gov wants planes to crash into buildings, and explosions to topple towers, then its unlikely any amount of advance warning is going to stop that

:roll:

 

HeXploiT

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2004
4,359
1
76
Wow! :Q Never thought i would live to see this headline.
A crack in the damn always spreads.
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
1,875
0
0
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Well, we had little to no chance of getting the first plane or two that the terrorists crashed, but you would have thought we would have regrouped in time to catch the one of the last two? Apparently they have had time to build a new center to help the military keep track of sir traffic in the CONUS.

IIRC, part of the problem was that the hijacked planes had their transponders turned off so we didn't even know exactly where they were.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: QuaziK
umm
im sure the us air defence is and was just fine. but if the gov wants planes to crash into buildings, and explosions to topple towers, then its unlikely any amount of advance warning is going to stop that

:roll:
Took them longer to show up than usual. Must have been a Ron Paul rally.

So people in the government lied about their ineptitude and beaucratic failings? I'm stunned I tell you.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Well, we had little to no chance of getting the first plane or two that the terrorists crashed, but you would have thought we would have regrouped in time to catch the one of the last two? Apparently they have had time to build a new center to help the military keep track of sir traffic in the CONUS.

IIRC, part of the problem was that the hijacked planes had their transponders turned off so we didn't even know exactly where they were.

Yeah, that didn't help but you would have thought that ATC would still have been able to keep track of them. I mean you know it was a big jetliner that all of a sudden loses it's transponder and then leaves it's filed flight path?? They had to know which blips they were on the radar screen, didn't they?