9/11 and al Qaeda: terrorists' motivations and warnings (vid)

[Evander]

This covers the terrorists actual statements from 1996 to 2004 - if you've been unimpressed with the mainstream media's reporting on terrorism and 9/11, this is for you. If you think "they hate us because of our freedoms", you especially need to watch
http://www.youtube.com/view_pl...ist?p=7FC2CD8C0166309F

 

[bamacre]

Before I click on the link, may I ask who put this together?

 

[Schmide]

I clicked on it and it said

Peter L Bergen

On the front of the video. There may be a copyright issue as the reading is from his private book.

Didn't find it that revealing. Most news buffs understand Al Qaeda and it's many claims. This just seems to focus solely on the Israel and stuff.

 

[Craig234]

Here's the deal IMO:

The US and Al Queda and other political groups understand that there is a marketing issue in the political world.

The US tried to make itself the poster child for 'freedom', even while it is the enemy of freedom for many people when it suits its interests; Al Queda is opportunistic in marketing its motives - whether for public support or recruitnig - by selecting appealing issues that may have little to nothing to do with its 'real agenda', including the Palestinian issue and the issue of all those children killed by US sanctions in Iraq - apparently greatly exaggerated, according to reports I've seen.

However, one problem is the viewer's bias. How many Americans don't take America pursuing power, and Al Queda pursuing power, and view one as great and the other as evil, on that issue alone - how many can hear of 'x' civilians killed by America and not tend to excuse it while 'x' civilians killed by Al Queda is further proof of their evil? This is not to equate the two at all, but to note that bias has an exaggerating effect on how the facts are viewed even beyond any actual differences.

Knowing that Al Queda - whether its publcity or its recruits - talk about 'noble causes' doesn't prove what their agenda is, and hearing the US explain everyone's motives isn't the last word on what those motives really are. And again, people are often oblivious to their own bias over self-interest for their group.

This is one reason why it's so hard for any peace - people want victory and power, not peace.

Where is any real interest in sitting down and saying 'what's fair to everyone' - who is pushing that, what power?

Each player has a motive, the leadership of the US and Al Queda, the soldiers of the US and Al Queda, and none of those agendas are really what's fair and peace.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Well, i can't watch the video but i have to say that Craig got it right (yeah Craig, it astonished me more than you that i'm saying that, believe you me).

I'd tell you where these tactics come from but i doubt there is an educated mind out there that doesn't aldready know.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Craig234
Here's the deal IMO:

The US and Al Queda and other political groups understand that there is a marketing issue in the political world.

The US tried to make itself the poster child for 'freedom', even while it is the enemy of freedom for many people when it suits its interests; Al Queda is opportunistic in marketing its motives - whether for public support or recruitnig - by selecting appealing issues that may have little to nothing to do with its 'real agenda', including the Palestinian issue and the issue of all those children killed by US sanctions in Iraq - apparently greatly exaggerated, according to reports I've seen.

However, one problem is the viewer's bias. How many Americans don't take America pursuing power, and Al Queda pursuing power, and view one as great and the other as evil, on that issue alone - how many can hear of 'x' civilians killed by America and not tend to excuse it while 'x' civilians killed by Al Queda is further proof of their evil? This is not to equate the two at all, but to note that bias has an exaggerating effect on how the facts are viewed even beyond any actual differences.

Knowing that Al Queda - whether its publcity or its recruits - talk about 'noble causes' doesn't prove what their agenda is, and hearing the US explain everyone's motives isn't the last word on what those motives really are. And again, people are often oblivious to their own bias over self-interest for their group.

This is one reason why it's so hard for any peace - people want victory and power, not peace.

Where is any real interest in sitting down and saying 'what's fair to everyone' - who is pushing that, what power?

Each player has a motive, the leadership of the US and Al Queda, the soldiers of the US and Al Queda, and none of those agendas are really what's fair and peace.

Sure, everything should be fair for everyone. irl though, that can't ever happen because there is and always will be groups of people that don't care about being fair. It's part of human nature, an extension of competitiveness, and an offshoot of an ingrained tendency that has allowed the human race to get where they are today. While that tendency has its bad side, it has it's good side as well, which is why it will never go away. We humans need it to forge ahead.

Both the US and Al Qaeda are vying for power and control. Of the two, which system would you rather subscribe to? The vast majority in here would undoubtedly choose the US because our system is far more compassionate, more free, and more fair than Al Qaeda's. So let's drop the lame attempt at equivocation between what the US wants and what Al Qaeda wants. Everyone in here knows you're the self-lothing type, Craig. But, damn, sometimes you're just ridiculous.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Craig234
Here's the deal IMO:

The US and Al Queda and other political groups understand that there is a marketing issue in the political world.

The US tried to make itself the poster child for 'freedom', even while it is the enemy of freedom for many people when it suits its interests; Al Queda is opportunistic in marketing its motives - whether for public support or recruitnig - by selecting appealing issues that may have little to nothing to do with its 'real agenda', including the Palestinian issue and the issue of all those children killed by US sanctions in Iraq - apparently greatly exaggerated, according to reports I've seen.

However, one problem is the viewer's bias. How many Americans don't take America pursuing power, and Al Queda pursuing power, and view one as great and the other as evil, on that issue alone - how many can hear of 'x' civilians killed by America and not tend to excuse it while 'x' civilians killed by Al Queda is further proof of their evil? This is not to equate the two at all, but to note that bias has an exaggerating effect on how the facts are viewed even beyond any actual differences.

Knowing that Al Queda - whether its publcity or its recruits - talk about 'noble causes' doesn't prove what their agenda is, and hearing the US explain everyone's motives isn't the last word on what those motives really are. And again, people are often oblivious to their own bias over self-interest for their group.

This is one reason why it's so hard for any peace - people want victory and power, not peace.

Where is any real interest in sitting down and saying 'what's fair to everyone' - who is pushing that, what power?

Each player has a motive, the leadership of the US and Al Queda, the soldiers of the US and Al Queda, and none of those agendas are really what's fair and peace.

Sure, everything should be fair for everyone. irl though, that can't ever happen because there is and always will be groups of people that don't care about being fair. It's part of human nature, an extension of competitiveness, and an offshoot of an ingrained tendency that has allowed the human race to get where they are today. While that tendency has its bad side, it has it's good side as well, which is why it will never go away. We humans need it to forge ahead.

Both the US and Al Qaeda are vying for power and control. Of the two, which system would you rather subscribe to? The vast majority in here would undoubtedly choose the US because our system is far more compassionate, more free, and more fair than Al Qaeda's. So let's drop the lame attempt at equivocation between what the US wants and what Al Qaeda wants. Everyone in here knows you're the self-lothing type, Craig. But, damn, sometimes you're just ridiculous.

I think Craig cuts himself..

 

[irwincur]

He cuts to feel!

 

[Patranus]

Watched part of the first video and then had to stop after the first bold-faced lie.
Israel was created by the United Nations (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181) not the United States or it zionist allies.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeAss

Originally posted by: Craig234
Here's the deal IMO:

The US and Al Queda and other political groups understand that there is a marketing issue in the political world.

The US tried to make itself the poster child for 'freedom', even while it is the enemy of freedom for many people when it suits its interests; Al Queda is opportunistic in marketing its motives - whether for public support or recruitnig - by selecting appealing issues that may have little to nothing to do with its 'real agenda', including the Palestinian issue and the issue of all those children killed by US sanctions in Iraq - apparently greatly exaggerated, according to reports I've seen.

However, one problem is the viewer's bias. How many Americans don't take America pursuing power, and Al Queda pursuing power, and view one as great and the other as evil, on that issue alone - how many can hear of 'x' civilians killed by America and not tend to excuse it while 'x' civilians killed by Al Queda is further proof of their evil? This is not to equate the two at all, but to note that bias has an exaggerating effect on how the facts are viewed even beyond any actual differences.

Knowing that Al Queda - whether its publcity or its recruits - talk about 'noble causes' doesn't prove what their agenda is, and hearing the US explain everyone's motives isn't the last word on what those motives really are. And again, people are often oblivious to their own bias over self-interest for their group.

This is one reason why it's so hard for any peace - people want victory and power, not peace.

Where is any real interest in sitting down and saying 'what's fair to everyone' - who is pushing that, what power?

Each player has a motive, the leadership of the US and Al Queda, the soldiers of the US and Al Queda, and none of those agendas are really what's fair and peace.

Sure, everything should be fair for everyone. irl though, that can't ever happen because there is and always will be groups of people that don't care about being fair. It's part of human nature, an extension of competitiveness, and an offshoot of an ingrained tendency that has allowed the human race to get where they are today. While that tendency has its bad side, it has it's good side as well, which is why it will never go away. We humans need it to forge ahead.

Both the US and Al Qaeda are vying for power and control. Of the two, which system would you rather subscribe to? The vast majority in here would undoubtedly choose the US because our system is far more compassionate, more free, and more fair than Al Qaeda's. So let's drop the lame attempt at equivocation between what the US wants and what Al Qaeda wants. Everyone in here knows you're the self-lothing type, Craig. But, damn, sometimes you're just ridiculous.

How does explaining the Terrorists motivations equate to self loathinjg?

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Sure, everything should be fair for everyone. irl though, that can't ever happen because there is and always will be groups of people that don't care about being fair. It's part of human nature, an extension of competitiveness, and an offshoot of an ingrained tendency that has allowed the human race to get where they are today. While that tendency has its bad side, it has it's good side as well, which is why it will never go away. We humans need it to forge ahead.

What good side and where exactly are we today? The "good" is only afforded to a select few. As your postion within this group is subject to change, it appears illogical to affirm that the system is "good" in its present form, although it may be "good" for you at the time of speaking. If, like Marx, you are suggesting that human history can be described as a dialectical process involving conflicting class-based interests, that's fair enough; however, I would suggest that we have advanced very little and will continue to fail in this endeavour until such time as the groups that are not fairly treated are incorporated into your success story. In short, you are simply giving voice to an "I'm all right Jack" mentality.

Why do you refer to humans in your last sentence? The betterment of your particular group, class or nation does not necessarily entail benefits for the rest of human race, unless of course you subscribe to a form of social Darwinism, whereby you let the old, the sick and the frail fall by the wayside in order to produce a fitter, better species. I thought that one of the pretexts used to explain US involvement in WWII centred around your desire to do away with precisely this type of thinking. Perhaps your views are less "American" than you seem to believe.

If, as you say, we have an ingrained tendency to compete, our genes are also coded to ensure that we operate as gregarious animals that live and work together. Of course, whether you place more emphasis on one particular trait over the other may tell us more about you, as an individual, than it does about the nature of the human race.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
How does explaining the Terrorists motivations equate to self loathinjg?

The self-loathing I speak of is the Chomsky-ist sort of self-loathing. Craig despises power. Political power, corporate power, whatever power. In Craig's idealistic worldview, power prevents things from being fair and equal to everyone. The US being the most powerful nation in the world really galls him. As a citizen of the US it becomes a loathing. So to offset that he has to make ridiculous comparisons between the US and Al Qaeda and pretend that we really are no different from each other.

Maybe you can't see how absolutely idiotic that comparison is? I damn sure can.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeAss

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
How does explaining the Terrorists motivations equate to self loathinjg?

The self-loathing I speak of is the Chomsky-ist sort of self-loathing. Craig despises power. Political power, corporate power, whatever power. In Craig's idealistic worldview, power prevents things from being fair and equal to everyone. The US being the most powerful nation in the world really galls him. As a citizen of the US it becomes a loathing. So to offset that he has to make ridiculous comparisons between the US and Al Qaeda and pretend that we really are no different from each other.

Maybe you can't see how absolutely idiotic that comparison is? I damn sure can.

Well I'm not commenting about his whole body of work in this forum, just his explanation on this topic which IMO has a lot of truth to it.

 

[BarrySotero]

I don't doubt some actions by US were motivation for AQ (like US having troops in Saudi Arabia). However their roots and motivations still go back to the Muslim Brotherhood founded in 1928. Their icon in the movement was/is Sayyid Qutb who died in 1966. Unlike first claims, AQ was not that sympathetic toward Palestinians or Iranians/Shia etc (who they have quite a contempt for). AQ has created a lot of mayhem in a lot of places that have nothing to do with US.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: TastesLikeAss

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
How does explaining the Terrorists motivations equate to self loathinjg?

The self-loathing I speak of is the Chomsky-ist sort of self-loathing. Craig despises power. Political power, corporate power, whatever power. In Craig's idealistic worldview, power prevents things from being fair and equal to everyone. The US being the most powerful nation in the world really galls him. As a citizen of the US it becomes a loathing. So to offset that he has to make ridiculous comparisons between the US and Al Qaeda and pretend that we really are no different from each other.

Maybe you can't see how absolutely idiotic that comparison is? I damn sure can.

Well I'm not commenting about his whole body of work in this forum, just his explanation on this topic which IMO has a lot of truth to it.

Truth smothered in shit still looks like a turd.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeAss

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: TastesLikeAss

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
How does explaining the Terrorists motivations equate to self loathinjg?

The self-loathing I speak of is the Chomsky-ist sort of self-loathing. Craig despises power. Political power, corporate power, whatever power. In Craig's idealistic worldview, power prevents things from being fair and equal to everyone. The US being the most powerful nation in the world really galls him. As a citizen of the US it becomes a loathing. So to offset that he has to make ridiculous comparisons between the US and Al Qaeda and pretend that we really are no different from each other.

Maybe you can't see how absolutely idiotic that comparison is? I damn sure can.

Well I'm not commenting about his whole body of work in this forum, just his explanation on this topic which IMO has a lot of truth to it.

Truth smothered in shit still looks like a turd.

Obviously you can't tell shit from shinola.

 

[soulcougher73]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: TastesLikeAss

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
How does explaining the Terrorists motivations equate to self loathinjg?

The self-loathing I speak of is the Chomsky-ist sort of self-loathing. Craig despises power. Political power, corporate power, whatever power. In Craig's idealistic worldview, power prevents things from being fair and equal to everyone. The US being the most powerful nation in the world really galls him. As a citizen of the US it becomes a loathing. So to offset that he has to make ridiculous comparisons between the US and Al Qaeda and pretend that we really are no different from each other.

Maybe you can't see how absolutely idiotic that comparison is? I damn sure can.

Well I'm not commenting about his whole body of work in this forum, just his explanation on this topic which IMO has a lot of truth to it.

Truth smothered in shit still looks like a turd.

So you admit their was truth to what he said, but your cant see past the shit? I didnt see any shit. Maybe you need some new eyes?

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Both the US and Al Qaeda are vying for power and control. Of the two, which system would you rather subscribe to?

False choice. "You are either with us or against us."

The vast majority in here would undoubtedly choose the US because our system is far more compassionate, more free, and more fair than Al Qaeda's.

Hell, no one can disagree with that. But we shouldn't have to compare ourselves to the shitheads AQ is to see ourselves as great. It's like me comparing myself to a homeless person so I can feel wealthy.

But we don't play fair overseas. We aren't compassionate nor fair when it comes to our foreign policy, and we certainly aren't always on the side of freedom and democracy. Now, sure, countries do normally act in their own self-interest, but what happens when the "world's policeman" acts in this manner? We're seen as the great hypocrites we are. And we are hated and despised for it. What we do overseas is not making us safer at home, in fact it does the opposite. Our own foreign policy is probably the biggest danger to our own national security.

This idea that AQ or their ideology could take over the ME is completely absurd. The people of the ME don't like them either. With maybe a couple of small exceptions, they've been run out of every country they've tried to set up camp. The most significant exception to this is Afghanistan and that could not have been possible without US aid.

Like Craig has above, one could ponder on their untold motivations. Regardless, we need not continue feeding them ammo. Our actions only aid their recruiting. And that not only endangers us, it endangers the rest of the world, too.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Both the US and Al Qaeda are vying for power and control. Of the two, which system would you rather subscribe to?

False choice. "You are either with us or against us."

No, It's not a false choice at all. Craig was specifically comparing AQ vs. the US so I was addressing his comparison.

The vast majority in here would undoubtedly choose the US because our system is far more compassionate, more free, and more fair than Al Qaeda's.

Hell, no one can disagree with that. But we shouldn't have to compare ourselves to the shitheads AQ is to see ourselves as great. It's like me comparing myself to a homeless person so I can feel wealthy.

But we don't play fair overseas. We aren't compassionate nor fair when it comes to our foreign policy, and we certainly aren't always on the side of freedom and democracy. Now, sure, countries do normally act in their own self-interest, but what happens when the "world's policeman" acts in this manner? We're seen as the great hypocrites we are. And we are hated and despised for it. What we do overseas is not making us safer at home, in fact it does the opposite. Our own foreign policy is probably the biggest danger to our own national security.

This idea that AQ or their ideology could take over the ME is completely absurd. The people of the ME don't like them either. With maybe a couple of small exceptions, they've been run out of every country they've tried to set up camp. The most significant exception to this is Afghanistan and that could not have been possible without US aid.

Like Craig has above, one could ponder on their untold motivations. Regardless, we need not continue feeding them ammo. Our actions only aid their recruiting. And that not only endangers us, it endangers the rest of the world, too.

I'm not pointing out that the US is "great." I pointed out that Craig's weakass comparison of the US to AQ, and pretending we are so much alike, is bullshit. Stop trying to read way more into it than I was saying.

As far as "playing fair" goes, the problem with many in here is that they expect perfection. Sorry, but the world isn't a perfect place and sometimes we have to deal with the lesser of two evils because it's a better choice than doing nothing at all. That's how decisions are in life. No matter what you decide you're probably going to piss someone off. You know the old saying - You can please some of the people...

Let's drop the pretense that everything can be perfect in the world. It can't. We have warts and we have to learn to live with them because even with our warts you can't possibily name another superpower in this world that would be an improvement upon the US's role. Russia? :snicker: China? lol. The EU. :shiver: Sure, we aren't great. But we're the best there is and there really is no other more desirable choice.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: soulcougher73
So you admit their was truth to what he said, but your cant see past the shit? I didnt see any shit. Maybe you need some new eyes?

Let me put it in a way that some of you in here may understand. No doubt FoxNews has nuggets of truth as well. But all their whackery and hackery leaves any truth tasting sour, right, which is why it's so often dismissed and outright ridiculed in this forum?

Comprende?

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm not pointing out that the US is "great." I pointed out that Craig's weakass comparison of the US to AQ, and pretending we are so much alike, is bullshit. Stop trying to read way more into it than I was saying.

As far as "playing fair" goes, the problem with many in here is that they expect perfection. Sorry, but the world isn't a perfect place and sometimes we have to deal with the lesser of two evils because it's a better choice than doing nothing at all. That's how decisions are in life. No matter what you decide you're probably going to piss someone off. You know the old saying - You can please some of the people...

Let's drop the pretense that everything can be perfect in the world. It can't. We have warts and we have to learn to live with them because even with our warts you can't possibily name another superpower in this world that would be an improvement upon the US's role. Russia? :snicker: China? lol. The EU. :shiver: Sure, we aren't great. But we're the best there is and there really is no other more desirable choice.

How is any of this relevant to my post? Context?

And as for what I bolded, who is offering that pretense? Certainly not me, nor am I promoting any attempt to "perfect" the world. In fact that is exactly what I am opposing.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm not pointing out that the US is "great." I pointed out that Craig's weakass comparison of the US to AQ, and pretending we are so much alike, is bullshit. Stop trying to read way more into it than I was saying.

As far as "playing fair" goes, the problem with many in here is that they expect perfection. Sorry, but the world isn't a perfect place and sometimes we have to deal with the lesser of two evils because it's a better choice than doing nothing at all. That's how decisions are in life. No matter what you decide you're probably going to piss someone off. You know the old saying - You can please some of the people...

Let's drop the pretense that everything can be perfect in the world. It can't. We have warts and we have to learn to live with them because even with our warts you can't possibily name another superpower in this world that would be an improvement upon the US's role. Russia? :snicker: China? lol. The EU. :shiver: Sure, we aren't great. But we're the best there is and there really is no other more desirable choice.

How is any of this relevant to my post? Context?

And as for what I bolded, who is offering that pretense? Certainly not me, nor am I promoting any attempt to "perfect" the world. In fact that is exactly what I am opposing.

Craig seems to be offering that pretense. He wants everything to be fair and equitable for all in his idealistic world. That can't happen because when the guy next to you thinks you're giving him a fair deal, the guy next to him claims he's getting screwed.

I also don't buy that groups like AQ are reactions to US intervention in the ME or elsewhere, though their talk seems to appeal to those that despise the 800 lb gorilla and embrace the underdog. AQ is motivated by their own fucked-up ideals and imposing those ideals on everyone else, nothing more.

 

[OCGuy]

The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist. Keep up the pressure Obama, UK, and the rest of our Allies. :thumbsup:

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I also don't buy that groups like AQ are reactions to US intervention in the ME or elsewhere, though their talk seems to appeal to those that despise the 800 lb gorilla and embrace the underdog. AQ is motivated by their own fucked-up ideals and imposing those ideals on everyone else, nothing more.

But they are able to expand and recruit by using our misadventures overseas. We do nothing but help fuel the hatred toward our own country.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I also don't buy that groups like AQ are reactions to US intervention in the ME or elsewhere, though their talk seems to appeal to those that despise the 800 lb gorilla and embrace the underdog. AQ is motivated by their own fucked-up ideals and imposing those ideals on everyone else, nothing more.

But they are able to expand and recruit by using our misadventures overseas. We do nothing but help fuel the hatred toward our own country.

You mean like the Philipines, or Thailand, or Sudan, or many other places around the globe? AQ recruits and expands in places that we have nothing to do with so the claim that it's the US causing the expansion and recruitment really rings hollow and sounds more like FUD than anything else.