$80K Server/PC System

[ForSciGuy]

Hi,
I have a question regarding the server system our agency just had installed. Here is a bit of the background:
I work in a forensic lab and we use a software program that monitors the digital images we capture of evidence, essentially creating a chain of custody for use in court. We just spent $80,000 to upgrade our system, which originally consisted of one computer, so that it now consists of 8 computers linked to a server so that all 8 computers have access to the digital image tracking software.
Now I have an OK knowledge of computers for someone who is not in the computer field. I just finished my first build in January (E8400, IP35 Pro, 4Gb (2x2), 8800GTS (G92), 520 HX, 22? widescreen for about $1400AR) so I, at least up until then, had been keeping up with things for about 6 months prior.
Our 8 PCs seem decent in some areas but lacking in others. The specs are as follows:

NVIDIA Quadro FX 1500 (expensive card for workstations)
Intel Core 2 vPro 6320 @ 1.86GHz (I could not find the proc online but the vPro seems like a new thing to help out the IT departments)
2GB ram (not sure why they did not go with 4gb)
150GB hard drive (didn?t even know they made them this small anymore)

The server is:
E5335 Xeon Quad @ 2.0GHz
2GB Ram (512MB FB5300 C5 X8 1R (part # KVR667D2S8F5/512) (I don?t know why they used 512MB sticks and only have 2GB)
No video card
It is in a RAID config but I am not sure which one.

I asked the tech guy here setting it up why we did not have 4GB of RAM on the server especially since it was so cheap, and he said that it is because the applications are not RAM intensive. We will be using the system to open up very large images (34mb to 120mb), usually many at a time (5 to 25) in Photoshop to calibrate and edit them?which I would think more RAM would help with (especially with it being so cheap).

So here is the question:
Do these specs seem decent as far as the PCs and Server? A lot of the $80K is going toward the software/service contract (also a rip-off), but it just seems (especially after building a computer) that we are paying a whole bunch for a so-so setup. I feel like it?s when I go to the mechanic and I know I am getting screwed. It?s hard to say anything though since while I know some stuff I don?t know enough to go up against a guy who does it for a living. Is there anything you see that stands out as a bad choice? Anything you would do differently? Are we getting screwed? Thanks for any input.
Mike
PS. The PC monitors are also connected with a VGA cable using a DVI to VGA converter, and I am wondering if it would be worth it to mention this to my supervisor so that we can get DVI cables (e.g. would there be a noticeable difference? We do comparisons sometimes with the digital images so any improvement would be worth it). We are using 22? Gateway LCDs 1680x1050 HD monitors.
PPS There is also an HDMI input so we could also get a DVI to HDMI converter and use and HDMI cable?but I am not sure if that would be any different then the DVI.
Thanks again.

 

[Blain]

Originally posted by: ForSciGuy
Are we getting screwed?

yes

 

[ForSciGuy]

Ahh crap?I figured. Could you possibly elaborate though? What would a good server consist of? Should we have 4Gb of RAM? Also, would there be a difference using the DVI cables?
Thanks
Mike

 

[Blain]

"NVIDIA Quadro FX 1500 (expensive card for workstations)
Intel Core 2 vPro 6320 @ 1.86GHz (I could not find the proc online but the vPro seems like a new thing to help out the IT departments)
2GB ram (not sure why they did not go with 4gb)
150GB hard drive (didn?t even know they made them this small anymore)

The server is:
E5335 Xeon Quad @ 2.0GHz
2GB Ram (512MB FB5300 C5 X8 1R (part # KVR667D2S8F5/512) (I don?t know why they used 512MB sticks and only have 2GB)
No video card
It is in a RAID config but I am not sure which one."

Please clear up what the $80k bought exactly. Did it buy a server and 7 workstations?

 

[ForSciGuy]

It bought 8 workstations (the PCs mentioned above) each with a 22" monitor and the server. It is kind of hard to quantify since the companies software and service contract are covered in the $80k (I believe it is a 3 year contract), but it was supposed to be top of the line stuff and it does not really seem like that...at least to me. So I just wanted to check with people more knowledgeable and not affiliated with the company.
thanks,
Mike

 

[Nathelion]

Yes you're probably being screwed. There is no, and I repeat no, good reason not to put at least 4 Gb of RAM into those computers. If you use a 64-bit OS (which the clients might not, but the server really should if the software guys know their stuff), there is no reason not to go higher. It sounds like the thing is a fileserver, and fileservers do benefit from more RAM.
What we really need to know is how much of that went towards the hardware, and how much is really software costs. Software can be darn expensive. If $5000 went into the hardware and the rest software, well, that would explain things.

 

[JackMDS]

The is No way to judge from your description.

2GB or 4GB, this card or that card, does not amount much.

80K is a lot of money and it is Not because of the hardware.

 

[RebateMonger]

As JackMDS notes, the hardware makes no difference. It'd be IMPOSSIBLE to spend more than about $10K - $15K on hardware for a single server and eight workstations.

The extra money is either for:

a) Storage (a giant RAID array to hold your images - quite possible)
b) Backup systems (tape drive or portable hard drives)
c) Software (server, applications, licenses)
d) Configuration or customization of applications (some software licenses or customization can be extremely expensive
e) Configuration of server
f) Wildly excess profit

Can't tell from your description.

 

[DaveSimmons]

I asked the tech guy here setting it up why we did not have 4GB of RAM on the server especially since it was so cheap, and he said that it is because the applications are not RAM intensive. We will be using the system to open up very large images (34mb to 120mb), usually many at a time (5 to 25) in Photoshop to calibrate and edit them?which I would think more RAM would help with (especially with it being so cheap)

That probably only uses RAM on the client PCs not the server. The server just reads / writes files which does use very little RAM.

PS. The PC monitors are also connected with a VGA cable using a DVI to VGA converter, and I am wondering if it would be worth it to mention this to my supervisor ...

Hard to say. Try ordering a couple of DVI cables from monoprice.com and see. HDMI only helps if you want to watch blu-ray movies on these PCs.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Well those are expensive FX cards $500 each and seem to be overkill for what your doing, they are designed to drive two highres monitors at twice the res of those 22"

the workstations are probably $1200-$1500 ea, $12k max
Hard to tell on the server not knowing the board, cards or storage setup, but assuming a nice scsii or sas setup your probably looking at $2000-$5000

Like others have said the software and service contract is where the bucks are, but have no doubt that they probably marked the hardware up quite a bit.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: ForSciGuy
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1500 (expensive card for workstations)
Intel Core 2 vPro 6320 @ 1.86GHz (I could not find the proc online but the vPro seems like a new thing to help out the IT departments)
2GB ram (not sure why they did not go with 4gb)
150GB hard drive (didn?t even know they made them this small anymore)

The 6320 is a Core 2 Duo 1.86GHz with 4MB cache. Yeah, Quadro FX1500 is expensive, goes for around $500-600. 150GB hard drive might be a Raptor, which is the best performing desktop hard drive money can buy for another couple months (not counting SAS/SCSI drives).

Originally posted by: ForSciGuy
The server is:
E5335 Xeon Quad @ 2.0GHz
2GB Ram (512MB FB5300 C5 X8 1R (part # KVR667D2S8F5/512) (I don?t know why they used 512MB sticks and only have 2GB)
No video card
It is in a RAID config but I am not sure which one.

Depending on the RAID config, can be two SATA drives in RAID 1 for a cheap config or an array of SAS drives in RAID 5 (or 6) for a really super expensive, but fast and robust solution. The RAM part # is for FBDIMMs, which are expensive but are what workstation/server Intel boards use. Likely the motherboard is capable of dual processors (two quadcores).

Originally posted by: ForSciGuy
So here is the question:
Do these specs seem decent as far as the PCs and Server? A lot of the $80K is going toward the software/service contract (also a rip-off), but it just seems (especially after building a computer) that we are paying a whole bunch for a so-so setup. I feel like it?s when I go to the mechanic and I know I am getting screwed. It?s hard to say anything though since while I know some stuff I don?t know enough to go up against a guy who does it for a living. Is there anything you see that stands out as a bad choice? Anything you would do differently? Are we getting screwed? Thanks for any input.

Software and service contracts are very valuable. On the one hand, they make more money to the vendor than the actual hardware. On the other hand, many companies will not purchase hardware without an expensive service contract. The reason is that downtime can easily cost the company more than the service contract. The other thing is... as the old IT saying goes, "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM." What does that mean? Large companies will buy name brand stuff and overpriced service contracts because in a sense it limits their culpability.

Originally posted by: ForSciGuy
PS. The PC monitors are also connected with a VGA cable using a DVI to VGA converter, and I am wondering if it would be worth it to mention this to my supervisor so that we can get DVI cables (e.g. would there be a noticeable difference?

Some people may notice a difference, others may not. It also depends on the monitor because I've had monitors with VGA inputs that look about as good as DVI, and other monitors where the VGA input was very obviously... crappy.

If the picture looks crappy to you, then go ahead and try out a new cable. If it doesn't, then I'd say don't worry about it.

------------------------

Bottom line... are you getting screwed?

That's tough to figure out because, for a start, we would need the exact parts list and the breakdown of exactly what portion of the $80,000 was for the hardware. If we can piece together some machines (or even buying Dells) and get the systems plus server for $15,000 while out of the $80,000 invoice $40,000 of it was for the hardware, then yes you got screwed. If it was $15,000 for $15,000 "worth" of hardware, and the remaining $65,000 was for software plus a three year service contract, then you're probably getting reasonable value out of it (depending on details of the service contract).

As for the actual component selection, well, who choose it? I've known cases where purchasing just tells the vendor "we need some high end workstations and have $xx budget" without actually saying what they're going to be used for, so the vendor just configures something to fit within the budget.

 

[Mark R]

Heh.

It's often the case like this with these specialist software systems. The problem is that they meet a very specific, very small, strictly regulated market. And for reasons of regulation, you need a reliable support service - this means that whatever they say goes.

I work in the medial field, and we have been absolutely taken to the cleaners by our suppliers. It's astonishing. We have workstations for digital X-ray viewing. These need special high res, high brightness monitors and a special graphics card to go with it - but even discounting this, the specs of the machines are bizarre.

2x Xeon X5130 2GHz Dual core
1 GB RAM
2x 73 GB Fujitsu 15k SAS in RAID-1
Quadro FX 1500
Budget 17" monitor for desktop
2x Proprietary medical monitor
1x Proprietary medical graphics card

The price of the workstations is kept strictly confidential between senior management and the suppliers. However, this doesn't detract from the fact that the workstations are bizarrely specified:
The primary software is a basic client which streams 2D images off the server, and displays them. In the case of a complex CT scan, there can be 1000 images, and the system soon runs out of RAM. It's not clear how CPU intensive this is, it's debatable whether switching between several 2D images requires 4 cores.
No data is saved to the local hard drive - all data is stored on the central server. The hard drive is used only to load the OS and software.
We do have some 3D software, but it is a thin client, with the rendering done on a server equipped for rendering multi-gigabyte datasets, and streamed to the workstation in near real time.

As it is, the cost of the workstation is trivial compared to the cost of the screens - which I'm told we pay about $15k each for. But even then, I'm sure that there's a big markup for the service contract, as I do know that these screens can be bought direct from the manufacturer for $8k.

Of course, when you see how service is managed, you can see why they need to charge that much.
The power brick on one of these monitor broke. As it happened, we had the vendor's field engineer on site working on another piece of equipment.
"It's ok. I've got a spare brick in the back of the van. I'll set it up for you. Just need to clear it with head office, so that they can get the paperwork sorted out". Engineer disappears
"Oh. Sorry. Head office says that I can't swap it out for you. All faults have to be logged with the prime contractor, and not directly with the equipment vendors. Their rules"
We call the prime contractor and log a support ticket. Advised, that ticket will be actioned within 24 hours
Decision prime contractor is that a new part, certified by the manufacturer is requirerd. No parts in stock in the country.
New power brick is FedEx overnighted from Belgium.
2nd engineer visit required to test and setup brick!

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: Blain

Originally posted by: ForSciGuy
Are we getting screwed?

yes

Why?

Do you know of someone who can provide the same services for less?

Specialized software is expensive. Not a whole lot you can do about it. If you need it, you pay for it.

 

[Blain]

Read on cubby

 

[ForSciGuy]

Hey guys,
Thanks for all of the responses. I feel a little better about things, but I will try and get an exact list of what parts are in the server and PCs and how much the software/service contract cost. I am on vacation this week but I will try and get the info when I get back.

Cubby, yes the software is specialized, but not so much that we could not do without it if we were to come up with a new analytical method for capturing and storing images. The one thing holding us back is one of our employees has pretty much no clue how to use a computer (it was hard enough getting him up to speed on our present software). I talked to my supervisor the other day and we will be looking into doing things ourselves once our contract is up.

Thanks again for all of the feedback!
Mike

 

[piasabird]

Depends how the licensing for the software works. For just 8 workstations, that is not really a lot of access to the server with gigabit network cards being standard. Sometimes software license charges are based on MIPS or the power of the Server Processors and then number of processors are in the server. Then there are chages for the OS based on the number of users/clients or simultaneous users. Then there is the Software initial cost and maintenance cost. There may also be a setup cost to customize the software/system. There may also be training fees for the employees. Some companies sometimes force users to take training from their personnel only and that is the only way to get the manuals adding on travel and class fees.

Server Hardware cost
Server OS cost
Application software Cost
Application Client Cost X 8
Redundant Backup.

Workstation Hardware/Software Cost X 8

The hardware cost for the server is probably less than $10,000. (Maybe more if you have RAID and RAID backup). This depends on the value of the data. However, Just the operating system for the server could add an extra $5,000 - $10,000 for the Server OS.
I have no clue what the application costs to install and setup or what the associated license fees are. I imagine you need a tape backup system to back up the system about once a day, incrimental and once a week, full backup.

Part of what you are paying for is the security of the data as well as the integrity of the system.

I forgot to mention Conversion Costs.

 

[jdkick]

I have a few projects on the go at the moment, one of which I priced the server hardware (two single-quad w/ 4GB on the front-end and four dual-quad w/ 16GB clustered on the back-end w/ ~2TB storage) at ~$40000CDN. Not bad for 32 cores at 2.33Ghz and 64GB across the cluster.

Unfortunately, the licensing costs were >$320000CDN annually given our usage scenario and the vendors licensing model, so the project has been shutdown. So yeah, software and related maintenance can be expensive. I assume that this is where the bulk of your $80k is going given the hardware specs.