70% of of US PhD graduates are foreign born

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Oct 30, 2004
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it's pretty obvious if you do any research at all in a university (or just pay attention to the grad students) that that is how the system works. slave away for a while, get an MS or a PhD.

It's very wasteful because people end up spending 6 years of their lives training for saturated fields. The federal government and the schools also spend money on it. Also, those graduate students aren't as productive as full-time professional research scientists would be; they also have classes, oral exams, etc. The same work could probably be done by professional scientists or lab technicians earning a modest middle class income of $50,000/year.

so with this "glut" of foreigners, what you're saying is that students go into other fields like business and psychology, which are already flooded and a dime a dozen, and that's somehow supposed to give them a better ROI?

The best and the brightest will go into other fields like medicine, finance, business, etc. These fields provide a better return-on-investment in terms of time invested.

maybe instead of getting discouraged, these american kids should show these foreign students that they're just as good or better in science and engineering. maybe instead of expecting to pass a class, they should actually study and LEARN. science isn't easy, but i can't begin to tell you how many people *expected that it should be easy*

It's hard to outwork a foreigner who's willing to work like a slave. Why would someone want to do that when they could go to medical school or work for a bank? And why do that for the purpose of entering a glutted field?

what's a "reasonable" wage to you for a scientist/engineer? With an MS out of school, I started at 67k, and a friend of mine, also MS, started at 70k. I'd call that pretty damn reasonable. Perhaps people should stop looking for jobs in a 5 mile radius and be willing to relocate. I bet that is half the problem in filling positions right there.

That seems reasonable. The problem is that people aren't finding those jobs and are ending up working low-paid postdoc positions.

Did you read the article I linked to?
 
Oct 30, 2004
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I have a PhD in chemistry from UCLA, which is generally regarded as a top 20 school, and I'm a year into a post-doc at Columbia, certainly a top 10 school. I can't even get a callback for an interview.

Guys like Flexigoon will probably say you're making it up or that you failed all of your classes. Thanks for providing some anecdotal testimonial evidence. Do you know other postdocs and other fellow grads who ended up in the same position?
 

cutforscience

Banned
Jun 10, 2011
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he probably was caught masturbating in a kindergarten. that's why no one wants to interview him.



OK, I want you to read the guidelines I sent you before you make another post.

You have been here but two days and you are wearing thin on many members already.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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Heh. We're just exporting something our capitalist masters no longer require from us- education. And we're bringing overseas dollars back home as tuition, books, room & board for foreign students, who'll go back to work in their own countries for those same international capitalists for a lot less money.

Win-Win, Or Cornholio? Depends on your perspective, that's all...
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
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A lot of the people we educate don't go back, many of them stay here. Some do go back however.

Whipper, as to your above post, I am by no means an outstanding student, I usually get only mediocre grades, but I am very good at what I do. That said, no one looks at grades once you've gotten into grad school, so my GPA would have no bearing on whether or not I get an interview. The fact of the matter is the job market sucks, not because there are no jobs, but because there's a glut of very good chemists out there.

I sent my resume through a friend to apply for a job, and he told me another guy he knew with a PhD, post-doc experience, and 10 yeas in the pharma industry was doing another post-doc because he couldn't find a job when he was laid off. That's what companies are looking at right now. The new guys coming out of school don't have much of a chance.

So not only are there no jobs, but now that the repubs have taken control of congress, they're cutting research spending across the board. I should mention, the funding for my current position came directly from the stimulus. Now, that money is going away, and on top of that, government agencies like the NIH and NSF are cutting their budgets, so I'm assuming the proposal I submitted for my second year of research won't get funded. As a result, there's a very real possibility my wife and I will be moving in with my parents in the fall. We'll see what happens. I either need to find a job or a last second post-doc at some other lab.
 

Macamus Prime

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2011
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Does this mean they "took ur emajucation" as well? Given that 70% are "stealing" money that could go to an American who wants to obtain said degree.

Oh wait, most Americans are concerned with "winning", creating a sex tape and a getting a reality show on their awful life.

None the less; Tonight on the O'Reilly Factor, foreigners are invading our country, banging our women, taking our jobs and NOW, our education! When will it end?!
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
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Does this mean they "took ur emajucation" as well? Given that 70% are "stealing" money that could go to an American who wants to obtain said degree.

Oh wait, most Americans are concerned with "winning", creating a sex tape and a getting a reality show on their awful life.

None the less; Tonight on the O'Reilly Factor, foreigners are invading our country, banging our women, taking our jobs and NOW, our education! When will it end?!
Was that in response to me? I don't give a shit if we educate foreigners, but at least in my field, departments only admit about 5-10% foreign born students, in my case, 2 people of a class of 20. They're usually top notch. Science departments have to pay more to support those people, and thus limit them substantially. It's really not a problem.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Out of the 12 Million illegal immigrants, about 6 million of them immigrated to the USA legally on tourist and student visas and just never left. Maybe we should just quit issuing student visas. Another possibility is requiring all student visa recipients to put up a $10,000 bond which they dont get back until they leave legally.

I could see that some Americans being denied an education because of so many foreign applicants. However, there has been reported that many companies will only hire h1b visas instead of hiring Americans for the better technical jobs. This is because the government allows people to have a special preference for jobs. Once again it is the government that is the problem.
 
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Macamus Prime

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Feb 24, 2011
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Was that in response to me? I don't give a shit if we educate foreigners, but at least in my field, departments only admit about 5-10% foreign born students, in my case, 2 people of a class of 20. They're usually top notch. Science departments have to pay more to support those people, and thus limit them substantially. It's really not a problem.

I am mocking people who hate and fear anything foreign and find any excuse to trash them.
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
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Out of the 12 Million illegal immigrants, about 6 million of them immigrated to the USA legally on tourist and student visas and just never left. Maybe we should just quit issuing student visas. Another possibility is requiring all student visa recipients to put up a $10,000 bond which they dont get back until they leave legally.

I could see that some Americans being denied an education because of so many foreign applicants. However, there has been reported that many companies will only hire h1b visas instead of hiring Americans for the better technical jobs. This is because the government allows people to have a special preference for jobs. Once again it is the government that is the problem.
I don't know what programs you're talking about, but in my experience, H1B's are absolutely shafted...they need to be sponsored, and that costs the companies money. No way in hell they can compete with citizens in this labor oversupply.

Government is the only thing propping up a broken system right now, until it can fix itself. Government is the solution, it needs to lead and provide incentives to make sure the people can take care of themselves.
 

McWatt

Senior member
Feb 25, 2010
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The problem with PhDs in this country is the cost and time commitment is VERY high. Many of the foreigners are getting money from their countries, but those of us who live here in the US have no option but to pile on tons of debt. Then looking at the job prospects for most PhDs and you aren't talking about a whole lot more than a masters or many cases a bachelors degree with a few years of experience. For most American's it's a pretty easy choice to not bother with a PhD.

Nearly everyone gets paid for PhDs now, even in the humanities. It's actually a pretty easy way to get good money to pay off your undergrad debt while keeping interest deferred throughout graduate school. In the sciences, stipends in the range of $35-40k/year are typical with a fellowship, or around $25k/year without one.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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I don't know what programs you're talking about, but in my experience, H1B's are absolutely shafted...they need to be sponsored, and that costs the companies money. No way in hell they can compete with citizens in this labor oversupply.

Government is the only thing propping up a broken system right now, until it can fix itself. Government is the solution, it needs to lead and provide incentives to make sure the people can take care of themselves.
Considering that we are borrowing more than 40% of every dollar the federal government spends, we have about half again as much "solution" as we can afford. Regarding your personal difficulties, I can see why you would find it attractive if government took from someone else and gave to you, but please understand that most of us are "someone else" and therefore not nearly as enamored of that concept.

You may also want to look at chemical engineering.* Companies tend to want people trained to do things rather than people who merely know things, and as finding a new job is at best difficult in this economy, it pays to have every advantage.

*This assumes you're willing to slum it in the private sector like the rest of us.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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we educated the competition and sent them home. THAT is the problem. if you keep (some of) the people here, then it should help you to some degree.

The problem is that it ends up displacing Americans from highly-valued knowledge-based jobs. There are only so many of those to go around, and as a result we have a gigantic oversupply of college graduates.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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I sent my resume through a friend to apply for a job, and he told me another guy he knew with a PhD, post-doc experience, and 10 yeas in the pharma industry was doing another post-doc because he couldn't find a job when he was laid off. That's what companies are looking at right now. The new guys coming out of school don't have much of a chance.

Once again, thank you for your testimony. It's too bad that the general populace will never hear about this.

So not only are there no jobs, but now that the repubs have taken control of congress, they're cutting research spending across the board. I should mention, the funding for my current position came directly from the stimulus. Now, that money is going away, and on top of that, government agencies like the NIH and NSF are cutting their budgets, so I'm assuming the proposal I submitted for my second year of research won't get funded.

This is a great point. With federal and state budgets under strain, funding for science research is decreasing. Getting grants funded had already been extremely competitive for a couple decades. If those budgets get cut it will only get worse.

As a result, there's a very real possibility my wife and I will be moving in with my parents in the fall. We'll see what happens. I either need to find a job or a last second post-doc at some other lab.

Do you ever wonder if, after a while, you'll no longer be able to get a Xth postdoc? If you're thinking about going to law school to become a patent lawyer, do note that that gravy train left the station years ago and that the field is now glutted. Law in general is extremely glutted and very miserable. A lot of other disgruntled scientists fled science for law years ago. Also, most patent law involves electrical engineering inventions and only a relatively small handful of firms, perhaps 80 firms, have significant chemistry-biotech-pharmaceutical patent and IP litigation practices.
 
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Was that in response to me? I don't give a shit if we educate foreigners, but at least in my field, departments only admit about 5-10% foreign born students, in my case, 2 people of a class of 20. They're usually top notch. Science departments have to pay more to support those people, and thus limit them substantially. It's really not a problem.

If UCLA is a top school, it can be very selective and have a preference for Americans. Elsewhere the science departments are filled with foreigners. I have a MS in Chemistry, so I've been there and seen it for myself at multiple universities.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Nearly everyone gets paid for PhDs now, even in the humanities. It's actually a pretty easy way to get good money to pay off your undergrad debt while keeping interest deferred throughout graduate school. In the sciences, stipends in the range of $35-40k/year are typical with a fellowship, or around $25k/year without one.

What!?! If so then things have changed dramatically since I was a grad student. The most I'd ever seen offered was $18,000/year for someone on a merit fellowship, but that was over a decade ago. I have a very difficult time believing that grad students are getting more than $20,000/year today and my guess is that it's lower than that.

The $35-$40,000/year stipends are probably for postdocs. I also have a hard time believing that humanities grad students are getting stipends to live on. The science grads can at least be funded off of NSF and NIH grants.
 
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You may also want to look at chemical engineering.* Companies tend to want people trained to do things rather than people who merely know things, and as finding a new job is at best difficult in this economy, it pays to have every advantage.

As a practical matter, this really may not be bad advice if he has good mathematical aptitude (as opposed to a biochem major who's not that great at math) and if he's willing to relocate (to, say, Alaska, Texas, Wyoming, North Dakota, or Louisiana). He'd probably need at least 2 years of schooling to get a ChemE degree; it's different than straight-up science. My advice would be to look for work in the oil industry and to be willing to relocate to an oilfield area.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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As a practical matter, this really may not be bad advice if he has good mathematical aptitude (as opposed to a biochem major who's not that great at math) and if he's willing to relocate (to, say, Alaska, Texas, Wyoming, North Dakota, or Louisiana). He'd probably need at least 2 years of schooling to get a ChemE degree; it's different than straight-up science. My advice would be to look for work in the oil industry and to be willing to relocate to an oilfield area.
I'd think that anyone capable of getting a PhD in chemistry wouldn't find the math for a BS in ChemE taxing, but that might be my own bias. I found chemistry to be difficult and math to be easy.

I know in my area (Chattanooga, TN) a number of companies employ chemical engineers, from chemical companies to paper companies to turbine companies, but only the government and quasi-government agencies employ chemists. I had some classes with a nice and drop-dead gorgeous lady who had not been able to find work with a Masters in Chemistry. I think I remember a couple of men as well, but only the lady really stands out.
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
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What!?! If so then things have changed dramatically since I was a grad student. The most I'd ever seen offered was $18,000/year for someone on a merit fellowship, but that was over a decade ago. I have a very difficult time believing that grad students are getting more than $20,000/year today and my guess is that it's lower than that.

The $35-$40,000/year stipends are probably for postdocs. I also have a hard time believing that humanities grad students are getting stipends to live on. The science grads can at least be funded off of NSF and NIH grants.
UC stipends for grad students are about $25K, with a raise to about $28K after advancing to candidacy, that's pretty standard...a friend of mine in florida was paying a mortgage with his stipend and had cash to spare. In markets like LA and NYC (Columbia's stipend is about the same), it can be hard to make ends meet, especially when you factor in student loans and ridiculous rent prices.

Post-docs NIH recommended minimum for NSF and NIH is $39K a year, with about a 5% raise every year. It's almost a wash, as Post-docs pay their own health insurance, whereas grad students get it covered in their tuition.
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
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Considering that we are borrowing more than 40% of every dollar the federal government spends, we have about half again as much "solution" as we can afford. Regarding your personal difficulties, I can see why you would find it attractive if government took from someone else and gave to you, but please understand that most of us are "someone else" and therefore not nearly as enamored of that concept.

You may also want to look at chemical engineering.* Companies tend to want people trained to do things rather than people who merely know things, and as finding a new job is at best difficult in this economy, it pays to have every advantage.

*This assumes you're willing to slum it in the private sector like the rest of us.
I understand everyone is hurting right now, I get it. The fact is, for the last 30 years, the government and corporatists have sold our economy as being one of services and innovation, which was a product of our R&D and the best university system in the world. Now that the economy has tanked and manufacturing jobs are almost gone, companies are cutting R&D. They're cutting everything, apparently, except bonuses. There's a real lack of responsibility at the top which is disgusting. Offshore jobs, offshore everything, but let the execs bring in their bonuses. It's not a sustainable model, and now that's coming home to roost.

I'm really tired of the right shouting their mantra, saying we need to cut the deficit, which means cutting spending. I agree, we do need to cut spending, but we also need to raise tax revenue if you want to be serious about cutting the deficit. The main issue is, the right uses cutting the deficit as the excuse to cut spending, but then they go right ahead and cut taxes, mostly to the rich and corporations. Net effect: same hole or worse than we started.

I like that you equate my bemoaning of the state of research spending as a government handout or wealth redistribution, that's a nice touch. You've definitely benefited at least indirectly from money spent by NIH and the NSF, if not directly. That's the entire point, that government spends money on things that benefit everyone in society, and everyone in turn pays for it. The problem is, a lot of people don't pay their fair share. Your point that companies only want people who can do things, instead of those that know things, is also more than a little humorous, but that's ok. It's not like I show up in the lab every day with my thumb up my ass and ponder all things chemical in nature.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
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The problem is that it ends up displacing Americans from highly-valued knowledge-based jobs. There are only so many of those to go around, and as a result we have a gigantic oversupply of college graduates.

and if americans aren't taking those jobs (because so few go into STEM these days), then they go unfilled.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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UC stipends for grad students are about $25K, with a raise to about $28K after advancing to candidacy, that's pretty standard...a friend of mine in florida was paying a mortgage with his stipend and had cash to spare. In markets like LA and NYC (Columbia's stipend is about the same), it can be hard to make ends meet, especially when you factor in student loans and ridiculous rent prices.

Wow. Well in that case I stand corrected. It's been over 12 years since I was a grad student. It sounds like grad student stipends have gone up a lot since then. If that's the case then going to grad school in the sciences might not be such a bad thing to do if your alternative is unemployment or working as a barista.