70% of of US PhD graduates are foreign born

[her209]

http://blogs.forbes.com/ciocentral/2011/01/20/danger-america-is-losing-its-edge-in-innovation/

Brings me back to when I was in school and was working with a Belorussian student studying in the US. He was a Civil Engineer IIRC and working towards his Masters or PhD. Even if he could stay, he didn't want to because he had family back in Belarus and was going to be treated much better there than if he stayed here.

 

[nyker96]

http://blogs.forbes.com/ciocentral/2011/01/20/danger-america-is-losing-its-edge-in-innovation/

Brings me back to when I was in school and was working with a Belorussian student studying in the US. He was a Civil Engineer IIRF and working towards his Masters or PhD. Even if he could stay, he didn't want to because he had family back in Belarus and was going to be treated much better there than if he stayed here.

damn you OP! Let them PhDs leave this country! We don't need more PhD elitists we need more hard working Real Americans! Good riddance!

 

[Schadenfroh]

We kick them out as soon as the graduate, yet oddly enough people care more about welcoming unskilled, undocumented laborers with open arms than granting the cream of the educated foreigners a path to citizenship.

 

[ShawnD1]

Does it matter how many PhDs the US has? Generally you only need a PhD if you are doing research and you only need 1 or 2 of those for the whole project. Out of a team of 30 chemists or 30 biologists, only 1 of them will need a PhD.

Back when I worked in a drug lab, the quality control department had 1 PhD. He didn't do any actual chemistry; his job was more of a bullshit pushing papers and signing things job. The research department also had only 1 PhD.

 

[crashtestdummy]

As someone currently working towards a PhD, it makes perfect sense. In engineering fields, having a PhD in the US actually hurts your overall earnings potential. The starting salary for someone coming straight out of a PhD is more or less equivalent to having 5 years of industry experience, so unless you want to teach it doesn't make as much sense anymore. For many foreign nationals looking for a job (especially from Asia), though, having an American PhD helps a lot over having a BS from their home country.

I think the big mistake is that currently your time spent getting a PhD in this country doesn't count towards your green card. We pay to develop them, we should make it easier for them to contribute back if they so desire.

 

[Scotteq]

Does it matter how many PhDs the US has? Generally you only need a PhD if you are doing research and you only need 1 or 2 of those for the whole project. Out of a team of 30 chemists or 30 biologists, only 1 of them will need a PhD.

Back when I worked in a drug lab, the quality control department had 1 PhD. He didn't do any actual chemistry; his job was more of a bullshit pushing papers and signing things job. The research department also had only 1 PhD.

That's 'cos all the other PhDs left, so there were only two. :sneaky: D:

 

[Infohawk]

There do seem to be more students here now that don't really have any intention of staying. Especially Asian students who may be right in concluding that the future is brighter in Asia. As long as they're paying full tuition and aren't taking the spots of Americans, it doesn't bother me.

We have to keep educating a sufficient number of Americans though. Right now it doesn't seem like that's a problem. There's probably too many PhDs in certain areas.

 

[wuliheron]

We kick them out as soon as the graduate, yet oddly enough people care more about welcoming unskilled, undocumented laborers with open arms than granting the cream of the educated foreigners a path to citizenship.

Sorry, don't know any Phds who cut lawns and baby sit cheap. Don't want them competing for my better paying job either.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

70% of US PhDs are foreign born

Derp, you missed something:
"Already, 70% of engineers with PhD’s who graduate from U.S. universities are foreign-born."

Nice hyperbole. One, PhDs in fields other than engineering have some semblance of utility. Two, 'foreign-born' =! foreign. Three, engineering probably yields one of the worst returns on the additional investment a PhD requires compared to a Master's.

Don't get me wrong, the article makes a number of good points. Especially regarding our culture that values the double-digit IQ savages on Jersey Shore more than programs like NOVA. And, of course, there's the genuine shortage of qualified science and math educators. Anecdotally, I recently held a teacher workshop for 32 Wisconsin high school biology teachers and half could not correctly distinguish between a median and a mean...and only two of them could compute the standard deviation of a data set. Even more troubling, only a dozen of them gave the 'current' definition of evolution. (By 'current' I mean introduced and accepted by the field about 30 years ago.)

 

[ShawnD1]

Even more troubling, only a dozen of them gave the 'current' definition of evolution. (By 'current' I mean introduced and accepted by the field about 30 years ago.)

"slow change over a long time" or a more in depth answer?

 

[Deeko]

As someone currently working towards a PhD, it makes perfect sense. In engineering fields, having a PhD in the US actually hurts your overall earnings potential. The starting salary for someone coming straight out of a PhD is more or less equivalent to having 5 years of industry experience, so unless you want to teach it doesn't make as much sense anymore. For many foreign nationals looking for a job (especially from Asia), though, having an American PhD helps a lot over having a BS from their home country.

I think the big mistake is that currently your time spent getting a PhD in this country doesn't count towards your green card. We pay to develop them, we should make it easier for them to contribute back if they so desire.

Yup. There's really very little point in getting a PHD in an engineering field.

 

[CanOWorms]

Yup. There's really very little point in getting a PHD in an engineering field.

That depends on the field of engineering.

 

[busydude]

I am one of them.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

"slow change over a long time" or a more in depth answer?

AP Biology teachers should be able to give a much better definition.

 

[Zebo]

So what? Unemployed post docs are a dime a dozen. Yes even in engineering and sciences, Talk about a waste of money. We need more MDs less PhDs.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Does it matter how many PhDs the US has? Generally you only need a PhD if you are doing research and you only need 1 or 2 of those for the whole project. Out of a team of 30 chemists or 30 biologists, only 1 of them will need a PhD.

Back when I worked in a drug lab, the quality control department had 1 PhD. He didn't do any actual chemistry; his job was more of a bullshit pushing papers and signing things job. The research department also had only 1 PhD.

yes, it does matter, because these are the people who are discovering and innovating in the science and technology realms.

 

[gevorg]

But but we have more MBA graduates than anyone else. Who needs PhDs when you can't sell what you create?

Jersey Shore + MBA > PhD

 

[ShawnD1]

yes, it does matter, because these are the people who are discovering and innovating in the science and technology realms.

China is a country with tons and tons of PhDs. The job market is extremely competitive, they study like crazy, and they have some of the smartest people in the world. This is what they designed: chinese car

Americans can pass college if they drink fewer than 5 beers before going to class.... if they decide to go to class. Here is what Americans can build: American car.

Yes, we need more PhD engineers :hmm:

 

[Zebo]

Y'all need to look at winners of Nobels in physics, chemistry, & medicine, or Fields or Adel metal in Math.... Dominated by US and still is to this day. Thing is a small fraction of that 30% is really smart despite absolute numbers being lower not to mention no need for so many in the first place. To many go into education hoping it's their union card into easy life and invariably end up disappointed having neither the brains or connection to gainful employment in the field. Happens everywhere too.

Much more practical education would be in areas there are shortages like medicine.

 

[Fenixgoon]

China is a country with tons and tons of PhDs. The job market is extremely competitive, they study like crazy, and they have some of the smartest people in the world. This is what they designed: chinese car

Americans can pass college if they drink fewer than 5 beers before going to class.... if they decide to go to class. Here is what Americans can build: American car.

Yes, we need more PhD engineers :hmm:

i can cherry pick examples too: we are forgetting how to build nuclear bombs due to a lack of US citizens going into the sciences.

http://www.allgov.com/ViewNews/Scientists_Forget_How_to_Build_Nuclear_Bomb_90531

the fact that one person leaving resulted in such a knowledge vacuum is huge.

we're facing the same problem where i work - one senior engineer knows everything and is retiring in ~2 years. the rest of us are, for the most part, <= 30 years old and only have only been in a few years at best.

 

[gevorg]

Y'all need to look at winners of Nobels in physics, chemistry, & medicine, or Fields or Adel metal in Math.... Dominated by US and still is to this day. Thing is a small fraction of that 30% is really smart despite absolute numbers being lower not to mention no need for so many in the first place. To many go into education hoping it's their union card into easy life and invariably end up disappointed having neither the brains or connection to gainful employment in the field. Happens everywhere too.

Much more practical education would be in areas there are shortages like medicine.

With all due respect to Nobel prize winners, Nobel selection has been historically favored towards Western scientists and had pretty strong political bias (Obama's Peace Prize? WTF, LOL!)

 

[charrison]

Not surprised. When I was working on my masters, my classes were mostly filled with Indians and Asians. And most of them that I talked to were quite interested in staying here after they finished.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

We have to keep educating a sufficient number of Americans though. Right now it doesn't seem like that's a problem. There's probably too many PhDs in certain areas.

It's hard for Americans to want to invest 5-7 years getting a PhD. when we already have an oversupply of science PhD's. Who would want to do that for the "privilege" of working 65 hours/week at a $30,000/year gypsy scientist postdoc often without benefits? Since PhD jobs are being filled by foreign scientists and engineers through the H-1B and L-1 visa programs, there isn't much incentive for Americans to want to do it. Besides, science research can also be done in other nations for less money.

This article may be of interest:

The Real Science Gap
http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16191/

It's not insufficient schooling or a shortage of scientists. It's a lack of job opportunities. Americans need the reasonable hope that spending their youth preparing to do science will provide a satisfactory career.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Nobel selection has been historically favored towards Western scientists

Which is why we have real awards, like The Lenin Prize:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin_Prize

and the Confucius Peace Prize:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Peace_Prize

 

[manimal]

China is a country with tons and tons of PhDs. The job market is extremely competitive, they study like crazy, and they have some of the smartest people in the world. This is what they designed: chinese car :hmm:

That Chinese car video is awesome. I like how they tried to keep just the back two seats inside the no crumple zone. The elders in the back are kept safer....