Info 64MB V-Cache on 5XXX Zen3 Average +15% in Games

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Kedas

Senior member
Dec 6, 2018
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Well we know now how they will bridge the long wait to Zen4 on AM5 Q4 2022.
Production start for V-cache is end this year so too early for Zen4 so this is certainly coming to AM4.
+15% Lisa said is "like an entire architectural generation"
 
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Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
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The logic of these forums is just awesome:

AMD goes from awesome and accesible to the enthusiast threadrippers to Lenovo locked bs: "but but Threadripper beats the piss out of Xeons"
AMD takes away tuning from a single Ryzen SKU: "but but it is to limit RMA"
AMD does not release 1700x like SKUs in ZEN3 gen and rises ASP across the board for same core counts: "but but AMD can do no wrong"

It's the transformation of AMD from enthusiast friendly underdog is most likely the problem here, but i guess even if it was written on the wall, local ADF members would miss it.

Rob from AMD made it clear that this is a 1 off due to issues with the tech and lack of scaling beyond 1.35v.

Once the tech improves then overclockable v-cache parts will exist abd non v-cache parts obviously don't have the same issues.
 

nicalandia

Diamond Member
Jan 10, 2019
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The 1800x was good at a lot of things, whereas the 5800X3D is an unknown at this point. We can only reasonably surmise that it will be good at gaming but not for combo gaming + streaming (which is normally a strength for AMD; a 5800X3D will require a separate streaming box). It may also be underwhelming as an applications CPU.

No, the list price for $499 was for a yet to be released Zen processor, it was up for pre-order many people did not know what to expect, many people expected to flop because it was half the price of Intel's 8 Core Extreme CPU, The 1800X was the Unknown back then... the 5800X3D is All but Unknown, it's build on a proven world class performance Zen3, it has all of the Grunt of 8C/16T of those very powerful Zen3 cores in it. being 0.2 less in Mhz against the stock 5800X will not make much of a difference on Workstation apps
 
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gdansk

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2011
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Saying "ADF" is instigating flamewars.
Really not a good use of time.

Is AMD benefiting from not allowing voltage and clock control? Is it more sales? I don't see the benefit to them unless constrained by physical limitations of stacked cache.
 
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Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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Saying "ADF" is instigating flamewars.
Really not a good use of time.

Is AMD benefiting from not allowing voltage and clock control? Is it more sales? I don't see the benefit to them unless constrained by physical limitations of stacked cache.
Not only less RMAs, but maybe the extra cache needs 1.35 to be stable, so less won't work, and more would overheat. I really don't have a problem with this.
 

Saylick

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2012
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AMD has said that they've locked down the 5800X3D because V-cache is new to the market and so they don't have enough data to validate whether or not there's heat/electrical issues with V-cache. They could have delayed the launch of V-cache until all of it was sorted out, but instead of doing that they decided it was easier to simply back off the clocks a bit to cover their butt so that they could get the product out to market sooner. They chose to give V-cache to the masses sooner rather than later and something had to give; that something was OC support. That's their argument. Take it or leave it. If you don't believe their reasoning because you believe you are some kind of semiconductor guru and that you know more than AMD about their own products, then that's on you. If you think AMD releasing this product sooner means they are releasing it as a beta product, you are more than welcome to wait for the next generation of V-cache products that have overclocking/undervolting support. There's no "ADF" here. The same people who rag on this product would likely be the same people who'd rag on it if it came out 6 months later with OC support because it was "too little, too late, Zen 4 and Raptorlake are already out".
 

Thunder 57

Platinum Member
Aug 19, 2007
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Saying "ADF" is instigating flamewars.
Really not a good use of time.

Is AMD benefiting from not allowing voltage and clock control? Is it more sales? I don't see the benefit to them unless constrained by physical limitations of stacked cache.

Call me a newbie but what is ADF?
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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Lol that's a good one, thanks. Some people have such a hard time with AMD not wanting to be the bargain brand anymore.
Since this is an AMD thread, I will comment. ADF used to be the users that defended AMD when bulldozer was popular, and it made sense then to use that term, as AMD was not a good thing to buy then. I was an Intel buyer at that time. Then when Ryzen came up, people used it anytime someone whined about AMD. Now its the above.

Then there are those of us that buy whatever is best at the time. Best bang/buck, best overall or best efficiency. We don't have to resort to name calling, we just ignore who have no clue.
 

Thunder 57

Platinum Member
Aug 19, 2007
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Since this is an AMD thread, I will comment. ADF used to be the users that defended AMD when bulldozer was popular, and it made sense then to use that term, as AMD was not a good thing to buy then. I was an Intel buyer at that time. Then when Ryzen came up, people used it anytime someone whined about AMD. Now its the above.

Then there are those of us that buy whatever is best at the time. Best bang/buck, best overall or best efficiency. We don't have to resort to name calling, we just ignore who have no clue.

Thanks for the history lesson. I was using Ivy Bridge back then and generally recommending Intel unless there was some unique case where AMD might work well.
 

Ranulf

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
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The same people who rag on this product would likely be the same people who'd rag on it if it came out 6 months later with OC support because it was "too little, too late, Zen 4 and Raptorlake are already out".

Absolutely. I'm already saying its too little too late. Much of the updated lineup is. I'd say the 5600 and now cheaper 5600X are probably the best of the bunch. Its only amd mobo prices and cpu availability keeping them afloat vs cheap intel cpus. I'm still debating returning my 5900X and sticking with a 3700x and no upgrades to my other Ryzen systems for another 1-3 years. In theory though win11 isn't dead now for those of us with x370 mobos. The upside of sticking with the 5900X is I'll have no need for a new cpu for 3 years minimum.

I do enjoy seeing the whole ADF line here and a few other places as yet again Bulldozer gets trotted out as some horrible buy, all the time and forever along with being a "space heater lolz". Especially given the heat issues and the no OC claims for the new 5800x3D, along with the heat issues of Intel's last few generations. I will say, it was fun being called an Intel shill 1.5 years ago at the Zen3 release when criticizing prices overall.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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AMD increased prices with Zen 3 because the performance commanded it.

Though I was one of the people that predicted (and complained about) price increase for Vermeer, I had to admit that Vermeer sold out across the entire lineup (except sometimes the 5800X) for over six months at those increased price points. Given the scalper behavior, it appears that AMD could have raised prices by even more.

No, the list price for $499 was for a yet to be released Zen processor, it was up for pre-order many people did not know what to expect, many people expected to flop because it was half the price of Intel's 8 Core Extreme CPU, The 1800X was the Unknown back then... the 5800X3D is All but Unknown, it's build on a proven world class performance Zen3, it has all of the Grunt of 8C/16T of those very powerful Zen3 cores in it. being 0.2 less in Mhz against the stock 5800X will not make much of a difference on Workstation apps

I don't see how any of that undercuts what I said.

Besides, 5800X3D won't be great in productivity apps because it's only 8c. AMD isn't releasing 16c Zen3D.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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Though I was one of the people that predicted (and complained about) price increase for Vermeer, I had to admit that Vermeer sold out across the entire lineup (except sometimes the 5800X) for over six months at those increased price points.
That's when the old AMD we knew and love died. The new AMD overpromises and underdelivers several months late with caveats. They can do better but they won't. They have gotten complacent. Zen 3 was a huge leap for them and for x86 and they should have continued their winning streak and responded to Alder Lake with a death blow from Zen 4. Sadly, they were too busy trying to build up their V-cache CPU inventory.

EDIT: had some lingering text I forgot to remove
 
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Saylick

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2012
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That's when the old AMD we knew and love died. The new AMD overpromises and underdelivers several months late with caveats. They can do better but they won't. They have gotten complacent. Zen 3 was a huge leap for them and for x86 and they should have continued their winning streak and responded to Alder Lake with a death blow from Zen 4. Sadly, they were too busy trying to build up their V-cache CPU inventory.

EDIT: had some lingering text I forgot to remove
Unfortunately, Zen 4 (rather, any product using TSMC N5) wasn't going to be out anytime soon. It's not like AMD had Zen 4 ready in warehouses and could send them to retailers on whim. They have to wait until Apple moves off N5 before they could start fabricating N5 in high volume, and as you already know Apple has taken far long to move to smaller nodes because TSMC had trouble with N3. Furthermore, DDR5 wasn't ready and it arguably still isn't.

So what was available to AMD all this time? TSMC N7. That's about it. AMD ordered as much N7 as soon as it was available from TSMC. Unfortunately, the demand for current gen consoles, and pretty much all things semiconductors, shot up last year, which really limited how many N7 products AMD could sell to their core markets. Those wafers intended for console SOCs cannot be re-allocated towards the DIY market because AMD has a contract to uphold. I bet if AMD were given the option to renegotiate those contracts, they would because console revenue isn't a high-margin business. What wafers were left to the core markets (i.e. desktop CPUs, server CPUs, mobile CPUs, desktop GPUs, and mobile GPUs), they allocated towards the highest margin products first then to lower margin products. That means server products come first, then consumer products. They never had to drop the price of desktop Zen 3 because there simply was no need for them to do so. The demand was simply high enough to sell out most, if not all, of their Zen 3 products.
 

therealmongo

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Jul 5, 2019
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The main issue here with regards to the "whining" is that people inadvertedly project the bubble they live in onto an alternate reality that they believe is the real reality, when in essence its just a fabrication of their own thoughts.

So when AMD (or any other company) does something that does not match their distorted reality they cannot handle it and resort to immature actions such as name calling and statements of "what they will do" etc etc

This is a defence mechanism of the psyche to protect their over inflated ego of its self worth, where instead they should be looking to understand the World around them and how they fit into this to understand that such ideas of grandeur are only self serving.

I speak from experience as an adolescent teenager growing up to a young adult and now into the middle ages of my life, experience brings maturity, but unfortunately we dont all reach this level of understanding no matter how old we get....
 

Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
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This is a defence mechanism of the psyche to protect their over inflated ego of its self worth, where instead they should be looking to understand the World around them and how they fit into this to understand that such ideas of grandeur are only self serving.

Unfortunately there are plenty people out there with egos about the size (and fragility) of Hindenburg*. It's just how the world is, and certainly not limited to forums. Their problem.

*and it apparently it wasn't just the airship that was a more then a bit inflated... ;)
 
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Not true, they're just delivering to the enterprise sector, generally on time with excellent performance. It's the DiY sector getting short shrift.
The enterprise sector is irrelevant to gamers. They could try at least to maintain some balance rather than prioritize one sector so disproportionally over the other. They seem to be going the exact opposite way of Intel. Intel tests their newest tech on gamers and enthusiasts and the general public before giving it to enterprise and that's the way we are accustomed to and prefer.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
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The enterprise sector is irrelevant to gamers.
And real gamers care very little about this weird show I'm seeing in this thread.

They seem to be going the exact opposite way of Intel. Intel tests their newest tech on gamers and enthusiasts and the general public before giving it to enterprise and that's the way we are accustomed to and prefer.
That must be why gamers got to play on desktop computers with Ice Lake and Tiger Lake cores before enterprise got their hands on them. Friendly reminder that it is exactly AMDs modus operandi with server oriented chiplets that got us Zen3 as early as November 5, 2020 while Intel's "consumer facing" approach got us Rocket Lake on March 30, 2021. So 5 months later you got a new arch that brought zero gains for gamers. Be careful what you wish for!

As @therealmongo already warned, the attitude of some posters around here looks as if borrowed from a bunch of impatient youngsters who want their cake and eat it too RIGHT NOW. The Zen3 architecure is almost as old as your official presence on this forum, that alone should be food for thought.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
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That's when the old AMD we knew and love died. The new AMD overpromises and underdelivers several months late with caveats. They can do better but they won't. They have gotten complacent. Zen 3 was a huge leap for them and for x86 and they should have continued their winning streak and responded to Alder Lake with a death blow from Zen 4. Sadly, they were too busy trying to build up their V-cache CPU inventory.

EDIT: had some lingering text I forgot to remove

I really doubt that anyone has tried to build up inventory in these past years in the chip industry, as they have been able to sell everything they put out on the market. And with th Corona pandemic going on I wouldn't really blame any company for having their launches moved by a couple of months.

I'm no expert on chip production and how you assign ressources in the business, but to my understanding there has been a severe bottleneck in chip production, and Apple being TSMCs largest customer by far are paying to get "first picks", and then the rest of the companies can pay to share whatever capacity that is left.

Would I like zen4 to be out sooner than later, sure, has Intel caught up to AMD? yes (although at higher power consumption), but personally I did never expect zen4 before 2H22, and when I upgrade I'm going to get a new CPU and video card, so I don't mind waiting as I'm also waitng for next gen video cards (and for the prices to fall), and also for DDR5 prices to fall. :)