Info 64MB V-Cache on 5XXX Zen3 Average +15% in Games

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Kedas

Senior member
Dec 6, 2018
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Well we know now how they will bridge the long wait to Zen4 on AM5 Q4 2022.
Production start for V-cache is end this year so too early for Zen4 so this is certainly coming to AM4.
+15% Lisa said is "like an entire architectural generation"
 
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nicalandia

Diamond Member
Jan 10, 2019
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Don't care about OC (as in going above spec, as little that means nowadays) per se. But I want to be able to undervolt and optimize a chip that way. Hope that ability is not permanently included as collateral damage.
I believe you can use ECO Mode on all AMD CPUs weather locked or unlocked
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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In hindsight, the whole V-cache early announcement might have been a tactic on AMD's part to keep loyal users from jumping ship to Alder Lake.

Doubtful considering AMD fans would just wait for Zen 4, which they would certainly expect to perform at least as well as Zen 3D. Considering how long those people waited for AMD to have something remotely good, an extra 4 months between Zen 3D and Zen 4 is but the merest breath in comparison.

Maybe that logic works if Zen 3D was the first time that AMD might ever have a performance lead, but it doesn't make much sense for anyone on Zen 3 to jump ship to ADL unless they're just the type of enthusiast that always buys the best new computer regardless of how long they've had the last one. Those people aren't AMD loyalists.

Zen 3D is just the XT replacement of this generation. It's for a very niche part of the market and a bit of bragging rights. If it is king at all, it won't be for terribly long.
 

Makaveli

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2002
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Seen that about an hour ago however they keep talking about beta firmware. And the most recent firmware for my board is no longer beta and a full release. The beta version was 4203. I will get around to installing this bios probably on the weekend.

Version 4204 2022/03/07
PRIME X570-PRO BIOS 4204
1. Update AMD AM4 AGESA V2 PI 1.2.0.6b
2. Improve system performance and stability
3. Improve system performance for AMD Ryzen 7 5800X3D
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
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Zen 3D is just the XT replacement of this generation. It's for a very niche part of the market and a bit of bragging rights. If it is king at all, it won't be for terribly long.

Except that XT brought something like 3% difference. The 5800X3D will bring up to 40% better performance over 5900X in games, and some will be 0%, so let's just wait for the reviews. Bumping the clock with 100Mhz or tripling the cache size is not the same.
 

nicalandia

Diamond Member
Jan 10, 2019
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Except that XT brought something like 3% difference. The 5800X3D will bring up to 40% better performance over 5900X in games, and some will be 0%, so let's just wait for the reviews. Bumping the clock with 100Mhz or tripling the cache size is not the same.
To be fair, where it made 0% gains with Zen3 it also was tied with Alder Lake at 0%....

1646949143532.png
 
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Makaveli

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2002
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Due to the low volume of CPUs that AMD expects to sell, I believe that those 5800X3D are repurposed Milan-X Chiplets, with no OC built in them, The Ryzen Pro all of them have Milan Chiplets that boost to 4.5 Ghz,

View attachment 58450

At stock on a 5800X its listed as max boost 4.7Ghz but in reality it will boost to 4.85Ghz.

So i'm wondering if we will see the same behaviour from the 5800X3D boosting to 4.65Ghz
 

nicalandia

Diamond Member
Jan 10, 2019
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At stock on a 5800X its listed as max boost 4.7Ghz but in reality it will boost to 4.85Ghz.

So i'm wondering if we will see the same behaviour from the 5800X3D boosting to 4.65Ghz
I am not sure if AMD have set a Hard Line on the Max Boost to prevent 3D V Cache issues, but Regular Zen3 Milan processors do boost higher than their rated clock
 

moinmoin

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2017
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I am not sure if AMD have set a Hard Line on the Max Boost to prevent 3D V Cache issues, but Regular Zen3 Milan processors do boost higher than their rated clock
I'd expect the hard line to be temperature related anyhow. But that's an interesting topic, nobody really did clarify or find out exactly which parameter/sensor/whatever is the actual limiting factor for the boost frequency on Zen 3, did anybody? And that might be tweaked now for Zen 3D.
 

nicalandia

Diamond Member
Jan 10, 2019
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I'd expect the hard line to be temperature related anyhow. But that's an interesting topic, nobody really did clarify or find out exactly which parameter/sensor/whatever is the actual limiting factor for the boost frequency on Zen 3, did anybody? And that might be tweaked now for Zen 3D.

These will be B2 Stepping and they should run cooler and boost higher if TDP/Temperature allows
 
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lobz

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2017
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The only part of this post I disagree with is the gimmick part if I understand you correctly. I expects the test results to show a 15% improvement in games, and not much else changes, so Zen3 can take the gaming crown back from ADL. With the multi-threaded crown already in their court, and power efficiency in their court, this leaves Zen 3 winning in all but a few single threaded benchmarks. I don't think thats a gimmick, but overall only a small boost for Zen, but all they need at the moment. My personal testing of ADL vs Zen3 on DC apps also show this power efficiency and multi-threaded advantage personally confirmed. And by50% for both. (details in the DC forum)
If it would only be games, Milan-X would not exist. It's rather the other way around, it has just turned out to be great for most games as a maybe not fully unexpected, but also not necessarily intended benefit, that's playing perfectly into the somewhat extended release cadence, by rivaling ADL in games with an uArch that has measurably lower IPC and a product that has _significantly_ lower clock speed.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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If it would only be games, Milan-X would not exist. It's rather the other way around, it has just turned out to be great for most games as a maybe not fully unexpected, but also not necessarily intended benefit, that's playing perfectly into the somewhat extended release cadence, by rivaling ADL in games with an uArch that has measurably lower IPC and a product that has _significantly_ lower clock speed.
I won't argue that, I just have no real experience with Milan-X, even though I know they rule the server world in performance and performance/watt.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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Milan-X, even though I know they rule the server world in performance and performance/watt.

Sometimes. Some workloads benefit from the extra L3. Others don't. As you well know, orgs typically buy hardware for specific classes of application (if not just one or two applications) unlike desktop users that may throw everything including the kitchen sink at their machine. Milan-X excels in enough niches that it's hot property. There are going to be some applications where Sapphire Rapids or even IceLake-SP may blow it out of the water - just not enough for Milan-X to sit on the shelf unbought.

What remains to be seen is whether the 5800X3D makes enough desktop users happy with its performance that they will buy it out. Milan-X will perform better than Genoa in some applications. Will the 5800X3D outperform Raphael on enough desktop applications for anyone to care about it? Time will tell.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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It seems AMD is pushing it as a gaming chip, so we already know there's a market for it. I can't see too many others buying it though. Extra L3 cache isn't going to compensate for another 8 cores in a 5950X for most workloads.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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It seems AMD is pushing it as a gaming chip, so we already know there's a market for it. I can't see too many others buying it though. Extra L3 cache isn't going to compensate for another 8 cores in a 5950X for most workloads.
In Gaming, I bet it wins most games. Otherwise they would not be selling it. In apps, its benefits will be limited.

Edit: See @DrMrLordX , it will so the same as Milan-, but a higher clock speed.
 
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epsilon84

Golden Member
Aug 29, 2010
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$450 is a pretty steep price for an 8 core CPU in 2022. My fears (expectations?) have been confirmed for the 5800X3D re: pricing.

I would have jumped on it as an upgrade from a 3600 had it been more reasonably priced. As it stands, I'll probably just get the $199 5600 and call it a day for AM4. I game at 1440P so it's not like I'll see the full 15% uplift in games, I'll be surprised if there is much more than a 5-10% difference at 1440P between a 5600 and 5800X3D. That would also apply to other Zen 3 (or ADL) CPUs that are already enough to max out current gen GPUs at 1440P.

Honestly the 5800X3D fills a very small niche. Basically, 1080P (or competitive) gamers with high end GPUs who don't mind the inflated pricetag.

If you're building a new gaming PC from scratch and dont have unlimited funds (or just want to maximise bang for buck) then a better way to allocate your budget would be to invest in a ~$200 CPU like a 12400 or the upcoming 5600 and put that $250 towards a faster GPU. $250 is enough to go up a GPU tier, and I would bet that in the vast majority of games a 5600/12400 + faster GPU would beat out a 5800X3D + slower GPU combo.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
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$450 is a pretty steep price for an 8 core CPU in 2022. My fears (expectations?) have been confirmed for the 5800X3D re: pricing.

I would have jumped on it as an upgrade from a 3600 had it been more reasonably priced. As it stands, I'll probably just get the $199 5600 and call it a day for AM4. I game at 1440P so it's not like I'll see the full 15% uplift in games, I'll be surprised if there is much more than a 5-10% difference at 1440P between a 5600 and 5800X3D. That would also apply to other Zen 3 (or ADL) CPUs that are already enough to max out current gen GPUs at 1440P.

Honestly the 5800X3D fills a very small niche. Basically, 1080P (or competitive) gamers with high end GPUs who don't mind the inflated pricetag.

If you're building a new gaming PC from scratch and dont have unlimited funds (or just want to maximise bang for buck) then a better way to allocate your budget would be to invest in a ~$200 CPU like a 12400 or the upcoming 5600 and put that $250 towards a faster GPU. $250 is enough to go up a GPU tier, and I would bet that in the vast majority of games a 5600/12400 + faster GPU would beat out a 5800X3D + slower GPU combo.
Depends on where the cache gives most uplift, in cs:go it is 0% compared to 5900x and 12900k, so if you're building for competetive gaming, you will look for the specific game and which CPU is best.
On the other hand, if you play lots of different titles and really don't use your computer for tasks that benefits from 12 or 16 cores I can see the 5800X3D as a fine EOL product for the AM4 platform.
And while we all know that video cards are the limiting factor once we crank up resolution and details, I think the extra cache will ensure the longevity of the 5800X3D over the regular 5800X.